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Level 6 Mogul Technique

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Me, Level 6 (I think), 7 weeks skiing, 35years old, athletic, havn't had any lessons for a while, but have booked lessons for this winter already.

My normal on piste skiing style relies heavily on edging to carve turns, and places less emphasis on rotation and weight shifts.This doesn't seem to work in mogulls.

What feels intuitively right (to me) is to turn in mogulls by placing weight on the outside ski. The result is that when I ski in Mogulls I feel like my skiing is very old fashioned.

Everything I read about mogulls skiing seems to point me in the direction of using more foot rotation, rather than placing more emphasis on weight shifts.

How should I adopt my turning style for mogulls? I'm asking because I find I get on better with lessons if I've had a good think about the subject before the lessons.
post #2 of 28
Welcome to Epic Steve!

You can make almost any technique work in the moguls. The trick is to match up where and when with the "how" you choose to use. At level 6 you'll find instructors are eager to teach you the "how" that they personally think is easiest. This will vary (sometime subtly, sometimes dramatically).

One element of mogul skiing that is dramatically different from piste skiing is utilizing extension and absorption for speed control in addition to using turn shape and edging. You can practice this by traversing through moguls and pumping your legs to maintain ski to snow contact at all times. Compare that to traversing without trying to maintain ski to snow contact. When you can ski noticeably slower the first way in a traverse, you'll be able to bring that element into regular turns and have more control skiing through moguls.

There are a lots of other ways to ski through moguls. Search through these forums and read some of the other threads. You'll find many different opinions about the "proper" style for mogul skiing.
post #3 of 28
In a nutshell, if you're willing to take a step back from PSIA concepts, you can adapt your skiing to moguls much better.

No need to make a pivoted/rotational turn.  Efficient mogul skiing (including World Cup level competition) is based on a carved turn (mogul carve, that is) where the tails follow the tips.  Now, you definitely have to get away from weighting your uphill ski.  Mogul turns are 100% dependent on downhill ski pressure.  The lead change from the old downhill ski to the new downhill ski is one of the pivotal moments in the turn.  Without an early and complete lead change to the new downhill ski, your tails will wash out behind you and you will slide instead of carving.  It will help if you allow yourself a tighter stance in the bumps, no more than 6" between your boots.

I could write  a book.  Oh wait, I did!

Epic is a great source for lots and lots of information.  But there are plenty of other sources as well.  Sometimes, too much information can be confusing.  But only you can decide what works best for you.  So, keep reading here, learn what you can learn, but--if the mods will permit me--I would recommend that you do four things:

1. Buy Dan DiPiro's book, "Everything the Instructors Never Told You About Mogul Skiing"
2. Read my technique guide at http://www.mogulskiing.net/mogul_skiing_technique_guide.html
3. Come on over to http://forums.mogulskiing.net for a lot of friendly, in-depth, and technical mogul discussion
4. If you're really serious about improving in the bumps, take a Mogul Logic or Momentum camp (or similar)


What I'm getting at is this: it is difficult truly improve your mogul skiing through PSIA methodology.  That's not to say that there aren't some great PSIA certified instructors who happen to be good bump skiers, and maybe some who can even teach the kind of methodology I advocate.  But the general theme is that you'll only learn to ski moguls efficiently and attractively from mogul-specific sources, including coaches, camps, reading material, etc.


Just my $.02
Edited by BushMogulMaster - 9/11/09 at 9:57am
post #4 of 28
 
UPDATE: POSTS PRIOR TO THIS ONE HAVE BEEN REVISED RENDERING SOME DISCUSSION IN THIS POST CONFUSING; SEE DISCUSSION BELOW. SMILES

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post

In a nutshell, if you're willing to take a step back from PSIA concepts, you can adapt your skiing to moguls much better.
...

What I'm getting at is this: you can't learn to truly improve your mogul skiing through PSIA methodology.  
 

Some of the good advice that BMM has is overshadowed by what I think are grossly inaccurate characterizations.  You can learn to ski moguls well through PSIA methodology; you can even learn to ski in a way that BMM suggests.  (I say in "a way," because I think his characterization of what is going on is somewhat inaccurate, but it is clear what he is driving toward.) Most PSIA instructors don't teach that way because most people don't want to ski moguls the way BMM suggests -- it is a more aggressive technique that is difficult for some to master and/or be comfortable with.

More to the point, I couldn't disagree more with his statement that begins, "Proper mogul skiing..." And, that is not because that he isn't describing a way to ski moguls, but because he is describing it as the proper way.  It might be his preferred way, it might even be the way that many WC level skiers do it (not a discussion worth having in this thread), but that doesn't mean it is the only way. That doesn't mean there isn't some validity to the approach he advocates, it just may not be for you.  It may not also be the right technique for the terrain.  Keep in mind, too often we think of how should we ski moguls, when there are different kinds of mogul fields that present their own unique challenges.  We should really think how should we ski a particular type of moguls.  

BMM is correct, however, that most PSIA instructors aren't going to teach a group lesson on the bumps that is keyed to his preferred approach. But, that doesn't mean that many can't or won't teach that way.  (To be clear, I am not saying that most PSIA instructors don't teach, or aren't comfortable with teaching, the tail to follow the tip, because that generic statement applies to a variety of different approaches, though not always applicable.  Tails following the tips can certainly be used in more than just the approach that BMM advocates.) And, to be fair, it is true that some (many lower-level?) PSIA instructors don't teach that way because it is a technique they are not particularly comfortable with.  If you want to learn that way, you need to make sure you have an instructor who will/can teach that approach.  And, you also need to be patient if they want you to have certain building blocks first. 

The best idea is to have a discussion with your instuctor/coach, develop a relationship, decide together what you are comfortable with, what you want to do and how much time and effort you can commit to it, and go from there.  If you are too impatient to wait for that relationship to develop, which I can relate to, you probably first need to identify what kind of bumps you are envisioning skiing and how you want to ski them.  You bring the same skills to all of them, you just blend them a little differently.  As you say above, when on the groomed you rely heavily on some things and place less emphasis on others. All of the skills are there, you are just placing a different emphasis on them.  Similarly, it is rare that you almost completely leave out any of the skills in good recreational mogul skiing. It is just the blend that will change and that blend will change based on how you want to ski them -- no one can speak too well to the blend for you without knowing what you want to achieve.  

So, definitely do what Rusty suggests and read up.  And, if you find some technique in the MA threads or on youtube or elsewhere that you would like to emulate (and even something that gives an image of how you ski now), post a link and maybe people will weigh in on things to do to get you moving toward that goal.  

Without addressing your original question, here are some general things that you can do with which even BMM would likely agree:

1. Moguls generally won't let you get away with being out of balance
2. Be tall, it gives you your whole body to work with
3. Absorption and extension do matter in almost any approach to mogul skiing, even if it isn't the most important point (though I wouldn't express it as a speed control technique, it certainly can contribute to that). 
4. Your poles are a critical indicator; hands in front, use your poles for timing
5. Smile and look downhill

Not an all inclusive list, probably not even my top five list, just five ideas of things to do while you work on figuring out what you are trying to accomplish. 

Smiles
Edited by SkiSmiles - 9/11/09 at 12:12pm
post #5 of 28
The above post by BMM is very good information but I'd just like to add one thing. While reading and watching books and video is great for knowledge and concepts, there is no sacrifice for hands on experience, instruction and just plain trial and error bumping. Sometimes the best way to learn is get with a bunch of talented mogul skiers  and hang with them.
post #6 of 28
SkiSmiles - You are correct, my choice of words was poor.  I have edited my post.  I also agree 100% with your list at the end of your post.

And I will append my earlier post to add the following: mileage on the snow is the only way to improve in the bumps.  As Lars points out, reading and talking can only get you so far.  Go ski!
Edited by BushMogulMaster - 9/11/09 at 10:32am
post #7 of 28
BMM, Thanks for clarifying. I'm definitely more in agreement with your original post now, though I see more shades of gray than some of your black and white statements.  But, enough of that.  

For most people, I am also a big believer in mileage, though I would refine that to say "guided mileage."  Work with a coach/instructor, ski, hang with people who ski well, follow them, watch them, talk to them, ski some more.  Rinse and repeat, starting with going back to the coach.  As for mileage, with most things, I think it makes sense to start on easier terrain.  Particularly with the type of approach that BMM is suggesting, I think it makes sense to start with low angle moguls.  For example, if a mogul run flattens out, don't ignore the bumps at the bottom.  In fact, that is often the best place to focus on developing the skills and approach. 

It sounds like, however, that Steve may not get all that much skiing in every year.  I would guess that people who are measuring things in weeks, probably are only skiing a week or two a year.  So, from a mileage on moguls perspective, as BMM suggests, I would definitely consider a camp or other multi-day program.  

Smiles
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiSmiles View Post

BMM, Thanks for clarifying. I'm definitely more in agreement with your original post now, though I see more shades of gray than some of your black and white statements.  But, enough of that.  

 

We all see the gray palette a little differently!    But what good would I be as a proponent of my technique, and as a representative of my website and technique guide if I presented everything in a wishey-washey shades-of-gray manner?  Everyone is free to pick and choose as he wishes from different techniques, but if I am to be effective in my role, I must present the material definitively, because that is how I see it.  Readers/skiers can then make their own informed decisions.


Steve - where do you ski, and how often?  That might be helpful to all of us in offering further advice.
post #9 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post

We all see the gray palette a little differently!    But what good would I be as a proponent of my technique, and as a representative of my website and technique guide if I presented everything in a wishey-washey shades-of-gray manner?  

Fair enough.
post #10 of 28

Alaska has my vote. 

This time of year to see: a blue sky with peaks freshly covered in 'termination dust' descending to brilliant fireweed, down into the gold alders, and a multi-hued green and gold river valley below that.  Once you have experienced that you don't need a photo, the image will exist forever right behind your eyes.

Everywhere is beautiful when the colors are full; the mountain ranges of Alaska are a masterpiece.  Go see it if you  get the opportunity.

post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Steve - where do you ski, and how often?  That might be helpful to all of us in offering further advice.
 

Thanks for your advice BMM, I've been enjoying reading your website, particularly the section on short radius turns.

I live in the UK, so I only get to the snow two weeks a year.

Next trip will be to Chamonix in January. Have booked some lessons with a British Instructor who has a very good reputation.


(To everyone else who has replied, thankyou, I've been amazed by the quality of the answers)
post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Robinson View Post

.....I live in the UK, so I only get to the snow two weeks a year.

 

umm..... you can be skiing at some of these places.




or if you want an indoor place



if I was in the UK, I would be on it. BTW, those kids seem to be going slow and in control.
post #13 of 28
Seems like a good time to revisit SVMM and give aspiring mogul skiers, like Steve Robinson, a few more tools to add to the list developed here so far. 

The link below is a 10 minute video one of our group (coldsmokedude) posted for a good discussion over at MogulSkiing.net. It explains and demonstrates the components of our SVMM mogul skiing technique. Since our style is based on a rounder turn with greater knee angulation, I am betting many of you here at Epic will enjoy seeing how it works in the moguls.

The following points are a direct quote from coldsmokedude's MogulSkiing.net post.


"Points to remember while viewing our style of skiing:
1. Fastest way down the moguls.
2. Based on a traditional carved turn, so the technique applies everywhere, not just in the moguls.
3. Skis absorb the shock so body does not.
4. Allows you to dictate your own line. When skiing steep, random, natural moguls and you encounter a wall (end of line) the SVMM method allows you to ski right over the wall or around it; you choose. This is possible because part of our technique is learning to ski cross-rut right into the front side of the mogul and up over it. Admittedly, this takes practice, but once you get it, it is tons of fun to go up and over, skiing the smooth open spaces on the tops. You will see examples of skiing in the OWS in this video. OWS = open white space."

http://www.weekendwarriorsguide.com/mogul_promo_promo.htm

 
post #14 of 28
The video Shipps linked to from ColdSmokeDude is solid skiing, and great turns.  As I've pointed out before, the SVMM is different in several key ways from what we generally talk about at mogulskiing.net, but it is certainly worth your time to learn about it, and consider if it will work best for you.

The primary difference between the SVMM, and the Mogulskiing.net method (derived from the techniques employed by current world cup skiers) is that we favor using different turn shapes and types for different terrain, while the SVMM preaches one turn everywhere.  Admittedly, learning to ski bumps the way I typically profess takes time and commitment.  If you're limited in time, and just want to master one solid turn for the whole mountain, SVMM seems very practical.  However, if you want to learn how to adapt so that you are using the most effective and efficient turn for the particular terrain you are skiing, I believe you will find it useful to adopt some different principles than the "one-turn-fits-all" approach from SVMM.

It's your call, you're the skier.  And the reality is, we're all in it for the same cause: helping skiers enjoy moguls and improve their abilities.  You'll probably find that--as usual--the truth is somewhere in the middle!
post #15 of 28
Oh, and given its relevancy, if you would like to follow the thread on mogulskiing.net that discusses and compares the SVMM, please read at http://forums.mogulskiing.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=974

After working through some "growing pains" in the predecessor to that thread, it seems we finally have some constructive conversation happening!
post #16 of 28
BMM SVMM is a traditional turn made in different places and with different turn shapes, using side cut, camber, and downward pressure to make turns ultimately coming to look somewhere  between a racer and instructor..WC is some mythical body position you force yourself into hoping you hit something in the lower part of the turn to go the other direction. Try to make the right moves to put you in that spot on your skis rather than thinking you make your body get in that spot.  
post #17 of 28
Your analysis of "WC" is incorrect, but this is not the place for that conversation.  And again, I really wish we could stop calling it "WC."  That is a misnomer.
post #18 of 28
Steve, I'm in agreement with the others that reading and watching doesn't come close to "doing" when learning to ski bumps.  Though it certainly doesn't hurt to take in what you can when there isn't any snow.
1) Find someplace that actually has some good bump runs.  They aren't as common as they used to be.
2) Find a good bump skier or two be it an instructor, coach, or just someone you see that rips.
3) Follow them, ask them to watch you and make suggestions.  No brainer when with an instructor, but when not ask someone that rips to take a run with you and share their craft.  Most folks I know would take a break from hard hitting high intensity bump skiing to help a complete stranger ski a bit better.  The more good bump skiers there are on the trail, the faster and better spaced the bumps form.
post #19 of 28

This is a good thread...so I dont want to have it turn directions.    But....

Comments on PSIA are funny.   I have now read through the mogul thread and watched the videos suggested.    HOPING TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW OR ADD TO MY TRICKS.       Prior statement, I am no mogul expert, I have taken lessons from PSIA and non-psia.      There is nothing in these posts that cannot be found in a PSIA lesson.      There is a very large bag of tricks and many ways to ski based on the hill, conditions, where you want to be...etc.     PSIA has taught me (not that I have mastered it yet) each of the techniques discussed.     


Readers of post...watch and read the comments as suggested...its good.    


Comment on milage.....its GREAT.   But if you teach yourself a bad trick...it can only take you so far and then you spend days/years breaking the habit.         Get milage, but have someone watch and comment now and again.  

post #20 of 28
Depends where you are doesn't it? I know of no one at the resorts I frequent,  whom I would suggest taking a bump specific lesson from. Many of them can hardly manuver their way through them let alone teach how to ski them properly. That doesn't mean every Resort is like that. That's why if you are looking for mogul lessons, good mogul lessons, you should go where they are known. Like Mary Jane, Steamboat, Killington etc.

It's like today's kids trying to learn flips, 720's riding the rails getting air in the halfpipe. That comes from hanging in the pipe and park all day. Trial and error. Hanging with and asking tips from those who are good enough to emulate. It comes with big balls. It comes with taking chances. Pushing oneself to the next level.

Read and learn what you can. Hang in the moguls and see who's good. Get with them if you can and ride the lift with them. But there are some good places to get lessons from. Steamboat has one of the best group of bump instructors anywhere. I think Mary Jane does also. Some are psia, some aren't.

I still say the best thing you can do to get better at moguls is much like powder skiing. There is no sacrifice for experience. And the gumption to take a chance. The more you do it the better you will become. But somewhere along the way, yoiu will need some lessons or tips. Whether it's from a friend, stranger willing to help, or an instructor. Hopefully the breaakthrough will come.

Maybe the most important thing of all? If you ain't real good on the groomed stuff, you ain't going to be good in the bumps or powder. You must learn good proper skiing technique. If you don't, it will multiply in moguls.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

 That's why if you are looking for mogul lessons, good mogul lessons, you should go where they are known. Like Mary Jane, Steamboat, Killington etc.

 

I have said this many times and will repeat it here. If anyone says there is one way or my way is best to ski bumps please be wary.

I have taught at Winter Park for a few years now and will begin by saying I am a very, very average bump skier. I am also not trying to book lessons here because I'm just teaching part time this winter and am already close to being booked. 

We do, however, have quite a few PSIA pros who are great bump skiers. 
post #22 of 28
Rusty is being modest. He skis the bumps like KY jelly rolling down the hill.
post #23 of 28
Anyone please advise on proper skiing technique and what it is? Thought that skis were made to turn using a formula and made to carve turns.  Not slide or windshield wiper or made to push your heels out to the side as if they are turning. Yes there are many ways a ski will turn but as referred to in this thread, there  seems to be a proper way or one way to make skis turn with proper skiing technique. We don't need to reinvent skiing every time we come to some new run or when skiing real moguls on expert runs the idea should be to improve on it and bring it to another level. Like to hear more on this proper skiing technique. 1 more ? is angulation good or bad? Talked to a lot of bumpers and everyone of them seem to think that angulation is bad.  IMO this is how one can measure his or hers progress to making better turns. More Angulation = Better Turn Simple.
post #24 of 28
Knee angulation is good.  That is what initiates the carve.  Early lead change and knee angulation result in a carved mogul turn.  This is good.  Hip angulation, not so much.  Tough to remain stacked when your hip is on the snow!


As an aside:

CVJ, as much as you like to keep saying that SVMM is the only method that "carves" a mogul turn, this is incorrect.  Anyone involved in mogul skiing on a high level will tell you that carving is essential to mogul skiing, whether it's SVMM or otherwise.  I think you probably have the opportunity to talk with just about anyone you want to in the mogul skiing world, so why don't you ask them what they think?  Ask the US coaches.
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post


The primary difference between the SVMM, and the Mogulskiing.net method (derived from the techniques employed by current world cup skiers) is that we favor using different turn shapes and types for different terrain, ......
With all due respect, it looks like the vast majority of the U.S. world cup mogul skiers make the same turn, in same place, on every course. In SVMM we advocate learning to turn everywhere on the mogul, which requires only subtle changes in our basic technique, and allows the skier to efficiently ski all natural terrain, from low-angle to very steep.

In my opinion, our approach is much more fun for recreational skiers. Today, recreational skiers view world cup mogul skiing much like ski jumping, in that it is exciting to watch but not part of everyday skiing. So, that is the problem. With SVMM, a style of skiing is delivered that is fun and obtainable for the masses. This is not unlike what PSIA strives to accomplish.

BMM, would you be willing to share some of the different turn shapes and types you use for different terrain? I think it would be helpful information for the aspiring mogul skiers viewing this thread to get an overall view of your approach. By different terrain, do you mean race courses, groomed runs, crud, powder, and moguls? 

BTW, the reason we like the SVMM style of skiing is exactly because it has application everywhere on the mountain. A typical day for me looks like this: Arc on the groomers, ski moderate moguls, ski steep moguls, ski crud/powder/etc in the bowls, run a few laps through Nastar; and do it all on the same pair of skis.

I think our Ski Like A Warrior video illustrates how our fundamental approach to ski technique works for all types of skiing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_AyDxKN_QI As you know, BMM, this video clearly shows mogul skiing, arcing, powder skiing, etc and everyone's basic body position and location on the ski is the same.

Do you have a similar video that shows your technique in a variety of conditions? I think this is important to the discussion here about mogul skiing, because I believe skiers would like to work from one basic style of skiing that has application all over the mountain and helps them improve their mogul skiing as well.

And now my list for Steve:
1. Plant your pole by reaching out to the top of the mogul. This action happens at the end of your turn. Don't be late.
2. Regarding your pole plant, have someone watch you do short swing turns on a groomed run and then she can tell you if your plant is late and occuring at the beginning of a turn instead of the end. Your instructor can help with this.
3. Use a flick, stab and release pole plant. Cock your wrist back and forth, while not moving your arms too much. With your wrist only, flick the pole tip out to the next plant with fingers open. Then make only a quick stab of the tip and retract the pole by closing your middle finger, ring finger and little finger around the grip to move the tip back to its starting position. Keeping a relaxed grip helps you relax.
4. On moderate moguls, look to ski the connecting ridges, the open white spaces, and try to slowly ski cross-rut (not in the rut). This will lead you over the mogul and you can turn on the larger smooth spaces up on top. Lots of fun. Look for the open spaces on top of the mogul, and do not lock your vision into the ruts only.
5. Practice a lot of short swing turns on the groomed runs and then practice making the same turn in easy moguls.
6. Also practice bringing your hips and butt up to start the next turn (per the video I posted above). This is a nifty tool for helping you stay on top of your skis.
7. Practice rocking off the back of your boots as you ski up the front side of the mogul. Reach out with that pole and dive into the next turn with you shins against the front of your boots. You must commit to the turn. Try this a few turns at a time on easy stuff, being sure to make the commitment to the front of your boots as you ski over the mogul. More fun!
8. Arm Position: Keep your elbows high, probably 8-10 inches away from the side of your body, your arms wide apart, and your hands out in front of you. Make sure your palms always face each other, do not open your palm to the downhill direction - by that I mean do not face your palm down the fall line. When your arms are held high and wide it allows you to make adjustments to terrain more quickly because your hips are not blocked by your arm at your side.
9. Read and view everything you can about ski technique, from all schools of thought, and take some ski lessons.

Finally, I would be remiss if I did not add Sun Valley to the list of mountains with great mogul skiing. I hope some of you on this thread will drop by and see us some time.
post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post


BMM, would you be willing to share some of the different turn shapes and types you use for different terrain? I think it would be helpful information for the aspiring mogul skiers viewing this thread to get an overall view of your approach. By different terrain, do you mean race courses, groomed runs, crud, powder, and moguls?
 


In the bumps, I use the mogul turn I have described on my site, and on this site several times.  On the groomed runs, if I am just skiing a groomer for fun, I make a wider-radius turn with more hip angulation to initiate a more appropriate carve for groomers.  If I am drilling for bumps while skiing flats, I use a short-radius turn initiated by lead change with knee angulation, and no hip angulation.  In tight trees, I make "check" turns, some pivots and edge sets, and some carved turns.  In powder, I ski flatter on the skis, weighting and unweighting.  Haven't really payed any attention to my powder turns, so I can't really break it down.  I enjoy the experience so much that I don't really consider the step-by-step turn process.  In the crud, it is a combination of all of the above, depending on just how "cruddy" it really is.  But I generally don't preach advice on these styles of skiing, because I haven't given it due consideration.

I have admitted, and will do so again, that this concept of skiing is not for everyone.  It takes longer to master different types of turns for different terrain.  But the result is clear: it's a blast to be able to rip a turn especially suited to the terrain you are skiing.

I am not out there to profess anything about any of these turns, except the mogul turn.  That is the turn and the technique that I have devoted much time to analyzing, breaking down, and conveying.  My instruction and writings on mogul skiing assumes that the reader is already at least an intermediate skier with a clear set of basic concepts already learned.

I think the most important thing that you posted, Shipps, was the statement "read and view everything you can about ski technique, from ALL schools of thought."  Then it is up to the reader/skier to decide which elements of which methods and styles work best for them individually.  Skiing is really about having fun, isn't it?  If not, what's the point? 

This is not directed at Shipps, or anyone individually.  Just an observation: why do we always get into spitting matches over different techniques (myself included, way too often!) when we're all here with the same goal?  We all want people to enjoy our sport, and we want to enjoy it as well.  In threads like this, maybe we should try to avoid the argument back-and-forth re:what technique is best, and instead just offer our own advice and thoughts as clearly as we can.  We can debate about the effectiveness of a particular method in a thread devoted to such a debate.  I always feel bad for the OP in threads about mogul technique, because the inevitably end up turning into a "my way is better than yours" contest.  Who cares?  There is validity to all schools of thought, and they can be debated elsewhere.  Let's try to focus solely on helping out the OP from now on.  Feel free to start yet another thread on mogul methodology, and I'll be glad to chime in further.

Until then, I think I've done enough damage in this thread!

Steve - Best of luck in your endeavor to improve in the moguls.  'Tis a worthy goal.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps

Do you have a similar video that shows your technique in a variety of conditions? I think this is important to the discussion here about mogul skiing, because I believe skiers would like to work from one basic style of skiing that has application all over the mountain and helps them improve their mogul skiing as well.

No.  I hope to do a pseudo-instructional video this season.  Will post, if I make any headway.

I believe different skiers like different styles.  Some like your one-turn-fits-all, some like to be more versatile with their box of tricks.  You know, I could use a 16oz hammer to do any job that I need a hammer for.  But, as someone who likes the right tool for the right job, I keep a couple of different hammers around.  A 16 oz for general work, a 20oz for framing, a ball-pein for specific things, a sledge for the big stuff, etc.  I could pound that concrete block with a 16oz, and get through it eventually.  But if I have the option of using a sledge hammer, wouldn't that be better?  Same thing with having different turn types and methods at your disposal.


There I went, and broke my own rule.  I should have saved that for a different thread.  Sorry.  I'm finished now!!!
post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post

This is not directed at Shipps, or anyone individually.  Just an observation: why do we always get into spitting matches over different techniques (myself included, way too often!) when we're all here with the same goal? ...
 


Taking marketing issues to one side, I think what's going on between you and the SVMM guys is a bit subtle for this forum.  I think the discussion you linked addresses the nuances quite well.  I hate to express it in negative terms, but someone who's a good but not great skier practicing what SVMM is preaching may be slightly more prone to having their skis jet as they get slightly back, and slightly more prone to ending up on the inside ski.  Someone who skis primarily "your" way, ie WC, but who does not have a strong general fundamental background, could well end up limited on, say, groomed snow or in high speed pow turns because they spend proportionately more time focusing on using the shovel of the ski, as well as A&E, to control speed and may not be able to lay'em over.

But, having stereotyped you both negatively, you both are I think in agreement on about 95% of fundamentals, or more.  Using the outside ski, for instance.  Also, in bumps being able to suck up speed through absorption (whether or not this is a primary focus) and learning to do this in a way that is not jarring.  I think for readers on here, if they hear that they should work on staying almost exclusively on the outside ski through the turn, that they should work on this in the flats first before bringing it into the bumps, that they should work hard at getting forward,  and that absorbing the bump (which generally happens almost as an outgrowth of these other more basic things) can help along with turn shape to control speed -- if they focus only on that they'll do pretty well, and won't be skiing WC or SVMM per se. 

The posts on here that tell people to distribute weight evenly between both skis in bumps, to stay off the boot tongues, that say that absorption CAN"T help control speed -- I think those are more the ones that one could take issue with.  Liking a slightly different turn shape and posture/ hand position is totally valid and sort of potato/potahto in my book.  Even a 40 day/year skier really isn't skiing that much, so everyone has to choose a bit what they want to emphasize.   

Shipps, that's a ripping 10 year old in one of your other YouTube videos, btw. 
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