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Avalanche Ski Training Book - Leg Training Exercises for Skiers - Page 2

post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

Lobo,

What do you think about sore muscles.  I get them every time I walk through the door.  It's apart of my rest/train cycle.  I can't see how an athlete can train high intensity without getting sore at least some of the time.

Sometimes Fran makes me sore

There is no doubt, the level of conditioning and intensity is very high at CrossFit. It's the first program to get me to this level of fitness, but I don't know much about muscle soreness and how it fits.


Personaly I don't see a problem with soreness. As you said ,the way we train it's going to happen. Just listen to your body, rest or scale as needed. 
We are trying to increase work capacity,pushing the limits of human performance ,your going to get sore muscles.
I was sore yesterday,quads,we did "karen" .The last time we did that WOD was last March.
Was way more sore then. Last week we did the 400m walking lunge WOD. Same thing ,way more sore the last time. Soreness passes .
Just don't hit it hot & heavy the day before your skiing.

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post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post




but what's the benefit of the 20 rep or 10x10 days for a snowboarder?  In addition to being too high volume to yield sports performance benefits, it is also too generic.  

As a strength and conditioning specialist (NSCA-CSCS and NASM-CPT), I like most (definitely not all) of the exercises that are included in WODs, but I dislike most of the set/rep/weight prescriptions.

Elsbeth 

Elsbeth
From your posts you sound like a great trainer, and please don't read anything into this.
But this post tells me that you really don't understand CrossFit.
The benefit for the snowboarder in the eyes of CF are the same as everyone else.
We're concerned  with GPP ,general physical preparedness. We do not specialize .
Those who do specialize will be weak in some other area.
As far as reps/sets/weights, the .com site WOD is for a 185 lb man with CF experience .Everyone needs to scale as needed.
This is also a scaled version of what could be said on this issue, I hate typing
post #33 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by loboskis View Post

Elsbeth
From your posts you sound like a great trainer, and please don't read anything into this.
But this post tells me that you really don't understand CrossFit.
The benefit for the snowboarder in the eyes of CF are the same as everyone else.
We're concerned  with GPP ,general physical preparedness. We do not specialize .
Those who do specialize will be weak in some other area.
As far as reps/sets/weights, the .com site WOD is for a 185 lb man with CF experience .Everyone needs to scale as needed.
This is also a scaled version of what could be said on this issue, I hate typing

Lobo - it also sounds like you know what you're talking about.  But just to be clear, I have a big problem with CF's concept of GPP.  I think it is hugely flawed.  High volume workouts will yield work capacity but also high injury risk and suboptimal strength development. There is more to physical preparedness than work capacity. 

And also note that you will be hard pressed to find a weakness in someone who is training with a sport-specific approach.  Sport specific training = smart all around training for increased strength, power, stability and mobility.  

In a sport specific workout, every exercise has a specific purpose, but every program includes elements to address all of the elements of GPP - not just work capacity.

In my mind you should be look at every single thing you are doing in your workout and justify why you are doing it.

In a sport-specific program you will see that any given program will include elements that specifically address: strength, power, mobility, stability, energy systems and flexibility.  Work capacity is addressed mostly in the energy system work but in the off-season may also be addressed in conjunction with a strength circuit.  And within each of those categories, there will be a checklist of specific areas that need to be addressed for the majority of people, and every program will contain some of all of that.  The specificity comes into play when deciding on the amount of each type to do and will depend on the sport and the season.  In other words - a complete workout for complete performance. You will not find weaknesses.

Can you honestly say that your CF training addresses all of that?  Because those are the components of GPP.  

Work capacity is only one element of it.  If your workouts do hit them all, then that is excellent.  Truly!  

I can tell you that the .com WODs sure don't. 
 
Elsbeth
post #34 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by loboskis View Post




...The benefit for the snowboarder in the eyes of CF are the same as everyone else.
We're concerned  with GPP ,general physical preparedness. We do not specialize .
Those who do specialize will be weak in some other area...

In terms of correcting strength imbalances, etc.  there're a lot of benefits to many people's overall health from doing at least some of this.  I also think that's true for things like Power Yoga -- your typical good snowboarder could benefit from some of either CF or the yoga.

The tradeoff is if they do a lot of this they'll hurt their overall performance.  For the average recreational skier/rider, does this matter?  Probably not.  They might want to be sure to MTB in a ski-specific way or something similar -- they may even find this is a LOT of fun all by itself -- in addition to or as a replacement for some of the CF.  If they do this they may end up with an approach similar to some of the CF "offspring" actually.   

Relative to yoga I have to say the positive social vibe that CF brings is a huge plus. 

I don't think soreness is necessary or inevitable, but it's not gonna kill you, either.

Edit:  I hadn't seen Elsbeth's post when I put this up.  I think part of this comes down to how "designed" someone wants a program to be.  Many people may care more about the motivation they get from the social element of a workout, e.g., than the actual specificity of the training.  Depemds what you want.
post #35 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

... CrossFit may not have that much specific carryover to skiing or high jumping, but a fit CrossFitter will do much better at either of those than someone who, say, spins a bit and hits the machines at the gym and otherwise has the same skill level. 

 
When I look at general fitness and skiing, I can think of few sports where non-specific conditioning is more suited.  The CF program works core like very few others do.  They emphasize legs, incorporate movement, train high intensity and focus on functional strength.  They do this extremely well, but not perfectly.

Live4ski and I were out for the first day of the season and he clearly noticed my improved conditioning.  Then again, I am 25 lbs lighter, but that too is Crossfit - Paleo diet and high intensity training.  Being 25 lbs lighter is certainly a factor, as it has been with pull-ups and hand stand push-ups.

I have a pretty good concept of specificity, and skiing is not a good example of a sport were that is required.

This post also missed Elsbeth post.

Again, General is the key word.  Every WOD is varried from day to day.  Strength features are limited.  There are so many examples available on the CrossFit site, but it's hard to know what others are doing.  Crossfit puts their cards on the table.  They also work with athletes and walkins, some with dismal levels of fitness.

It is also important to recognise the full scope of what they stand for.  You should do activies and that is part of CF.  You can change your program if needed.  You can even go to a personal trainer, a coach, and an instructor.  You can go 5 days a week or 2 days a week.  At AlbanyCrossfit, you can meet with a coach or even coaches to tweek your specific needs.  One of hour coaches is a kettlebell coach - truly one of the best in the country.

And CFs around the world all have their own flavor, style.  But the cool aid remains the same.
Edited by Paul Jones - 12/9/09 at 9:13am
post #36 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post



...

I have a pretty good concept of specificity, and skiing is not a good example of a sport were that is required.

 


Actually it's the reverse.  Crossfit would be closer to a good fit with wrestling.  For skiing to be optimal off-snow you'd want a combo of more low-intensity spinning on a bike, some more maximal strength work, for many people some time on skates/Harb Carvers/etc....

Not a big deal for most people though.  I do believe that getting more generally fit from CF well help someone ski better though. 

I'm also not a big fan of the Paleo diet for most sports.  But, again, if it helps someone drop weight and eat healthy it's a good thing, not a bad thing. 
Edited by CTKook - 12/9/09 at 9:10am
post #37 of 43
Met-com, upper body, core (incredible core work) and leg strength.  I am thinking that you may be referring to the movement aspect that many skiing fitness programs incorporate.  I would say that they falls outside the scope.  Some of the athletes who are at the higher levels of the sport utilize concepts and specialty training that are not available to most people.
post #38 of 43
http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=29

This is goes into some of these issues at a bit more length.  Nice discussionhere inthis thread.
post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

http://www.gymjones.com/knowledge.php?id=29

This is goes into some of these issues at a bit more length.  Nice discussionhere inthis thread.

 

twight would still be stuck in the realm of LSD if it weren't for CF.
post #40 of 43
Long Slow Distance for those who don't know LSD. 

That might be a bit simplistic, because his earlier training was not all LSD.  Overall point being he wanted more specificity of one sort than he was getting from "standard"  CF, others may want or need more of another.  He also has an extreme personality.  I think certain personalities are attracted to different types of workouts.  

In terms of the evolution of fitness trends, there's a parallel in "hot" yoga as some people have branched off from "Bikram," some because they wanted to do something a bit different, some for commercial reasons.  Nothing wrong with either of those reasons.   
post #41 of 43

This is true.  His earlier training mimics a serious swimming workout transferred to dry land.

There's no substitute for getting outside and getting it on because nowhere else are both physical and psychological characteristics so sorely tested

 

© 2005 - 2009 Gym

post #42 of 43

^^^  Yep.  Now, a lot of what he's pushing also wouldn't be well-suited to resort-based alpine skiing.  His references to Nietsche [sp?] may be a bit much.  Etc. etc. 

I actually bet that in many cases if a CF'er looked @ say, Bergmueller/Maier and said, here's more what I'd want to mimic, plus I want to incorporate a few days mtb-ing/week (even if only figure 8s in the driveway) as an integral part of the CF program, that they'd find they can get things tweaked a bit to suit what they specifically want, if they even want to optimize things for on-snow performance.  (Wanting to do the same workout as part of a group is also cool and has its own value.)

 

 

post #43 of 43
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