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Avalanche Ski Training Book - Leg Training Exercises for Skiers

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 

Has anyone read this book and/or used the training techniques from the book?  I am interested in it but I don't know about shelling out $47.00. 

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post #2 of 43
 bump. anyone ever reply?
post #3 of 43
 no ...this was my post, too.

however see this forum link (see post #7...once that youtube video is over (pretty amazing) look under it and you'll see a scroll bar of other fitness related ski exercise you tube videos...some were really helpful ie ski camp of kids running downhill to simulate eccentric stretching movements on muscles.

www.epicski.com/forum/thread/87206/anyone-think-they-have-the-absolute-best-exercise-to-prep-for-skiing
post #4 of 43
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the link to the thread! 
post #5 of 43
Here's one to start with - OHS (over head squat).  Obviously she is very advanced.  Awesome skiing lift in that it offer core conditioning as well as leg strength.  This is one lift that has really helped me.  I do 130# and I weigh 185#.

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_SonzJelliOHSBWx16.wmv
Edited by Paul Jones - 12/5/09 at 12:09pm
post #6 of 43
post #7 of 43
 great videos...(too bad about the music accompanying it..)
Edited by canali - 12/7/09 at 10:05pm
post #8 of 43
  i know of peter twist conditioning....how does it rate to cross conditioning? ( i'm in my mid 40s and may be seeking something that will kick my ass without such an extreme that i'll be going in for hernia operations, if you know what i mean, and taking out a 2nd mortgage for exorbitant fees).

I live in vancouver,  work in burnaby and often travel to the north shore
post #9 of 43
 I think Twist conditioning is a good option. I only know them by reputation, but they seem to be very much "sport specific training", and I'm guessing they will put you through the functional movement screen first and include corrective exercises to address asymmetries you've accumulated - very few athletes over the age of about 8 are without asymmetries/poor movement patterns.

I like overhead squats as Paul Jones suggested above, as long as they are done well and as long as it's not someone with shoulder problems - even then I may be ok with them but I'd suggest doing them with a trainer at first to really be certain of the form.  

I wouldn't suggest lunges for someone who is not already fit.  Lunges are a very advance exercise physiologically.  Great if you are in shape for them, but they definitely fall into the category of "you shouldn't do lunges to get fit; you should be fit to do lunges".  

Elsbeth
post #10 of 43
I just watched the lunge video that Paul Jones posted - and now I take that back about lunges not being good to get into shape:  body weight lunges are definitely fine to get in shape.  Especially if done with good form as they are in the video.  Although care should be taken to make sure the knee doesn't collapse to the inside.  

One other thought on the video - I actually think that the single DB lunge is harder than two.  Granted two DBs requires more mobility in t-spine region, single DB overhead requires QL (quadratus lumborum) and oblique engagement which provide both core stability and assist in functional leg strength.  Interesting tidbit I learned at a low back seminar recently - if your QL doesn't function, you won't be able to walk.  

Elsbeth 
post #11 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by canali View Post

... ( i'm in my mid 40s and may be seeking something that will kick my ass without such an extreme that i'll be going in for hernia operations, if you know what i mean, and taking out a 2nd mortgage for exorbitant fees).

 

Not sure about Twist, but CF is very scale-able.  It depends on the gym of course, but there is a big emphasis on good form.  Our CF has 2 to 5 coaches on deck during the WOD.  You can ask for a form check as needed and you will get unsolicited input often.  Coaches "push" you and others "encourage".  It is not uncommon to have another Crossfitter join you as you finish after they themselves are done.  It really helps when you are bogged down and crawling to the finish - team building.

The WODs are very difficult, afaiac.  When you look at it on paper it often seems like it shouldn't be too bad.  The level of work and intensity is far beyond what I could accomplish on my own.

You can get hurt in any gym, so always be aware and vigilant.  Scale as needed and don't try to prove anything, at least in the beginning.

Fees vary quite a bit:  $250 per 1/4.
post #12 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post

One other thought on the video - I actually think that the single DB lunge is harder than two.

Elsbeth 


 


We usually do lunges as one segment of a WOD.  We never do them independently.  An example would be 5 sets of 10 dead lifts, 10 pull-ups, 30 lunges.(just an example).

Sometimes we add weight overhead as in a 45 lb plate, or scaled.  One way or another, you know your a$$ is going to hurt the next day.

I think it's important to mention that CF is constantly varied so lunges one day but not the next.  Although a WOD may be more legs or more upper body from day to day the objective is general fitness.  I have found that approach complements total body strength - upper body work makes your lower body stronger.  
post #13 of 43
You've just hit the nail on the head of why I don't like crossfit:

Being sore the next day is not a sign that you've done a good workout; it's a sign that you've done too much for the condition you are in. Smart gradual progressions will get you strong and mobile without making you sore. 

Elsbeth 
post #14 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post

You've just hit the nail on the head of why I don't like crossfit:

Being sore the next day is not a sign that you've done a good workout; it's a sign that you've done too much for the condition you are in. Smart gradual progressions will get you strong and mobile without making you sore. 

Elsbeth 


 


For discussion purposes, there can be social and psychological benefits from "soreness-prone" workouts.  One of the reasons that CrossFit is effective inmy view is the social element.  Sort of an "everyone getting sore like a big happy family" thing.

Muscle-building isn't that relevant to skiing, but some workouts focused on building muscle mass have soreness as a byproduct.  It is interesting though that most strength & flexibility regimes aimed at athletic performance don't really leave you sore.
post #15 of 43
I experience significant muscle soreness from skiing.  I am prone to soreness and always have been.  When I was young and a group of us would go skiing, I'd always be the one who couldn't get out of bed the next day.  Lunges make me sore the next day and two days later.

I really don't know much about the physiology of sore muscles and fitness.  i can say that I have never been able to go to this level of fitness even when I was young.  It should also be pointed out that CF is not a body building program, it is all about fitness.  I am certain that the term "fitness" could be debated.

I know I sound like a broken record, but CF has been truly amazing for the development of my conditioning.  I apologize for that, but for me, I can't imagine a "program" that could match what this method of fitness provides.

It's easy to type away on the internet and talk about fitness.  Truth is,I am still not in great shape.  But I have lost 25 lbs and get comments about my "apparent" fitness often.  From my limited point of view and based on my experience, strength is a huge part of fitness.  It is a necessary component.  If you lift heavy, I believe that you will get sore muscles.
post #16 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
Muscle-building isn't that relevant to skiing, but some workouts focused on building muscle mass have soreness as a byproduct.  It is interesting though that most strength & flexibility regimes aimed at athletic performance don't really leave you sore.
 

If you are saying muscle building is not relevant but strength is, then I completely agree. You don't really need mass, but you do need strength.  

Also, soreness is not a byproduct of muscle building - it's a byproduct of inappropriate muscle building.  The reason strength and flexibility regimes aimed at athletic performance don't leave you sore is because they are generally created  by people with a strong understanding of physiology and exercise science.  They are progressive and geared toward the needs of the individual's current fitness level and their athletic requirements.

You will get incredible benefits in your skiing by doing a workout geared toward athletic performance, and you will likely manage it without soreness.  There may be a day or two where you are sore, but that will only be during transitions between programming phases when the trainer made a mistake with the weight/set/rep prescriptions, and a good one will correct that asap.

Elsbeth

 
post #17 of 43
Some high-volume approaches, such as German Volume Training and similar , were what I was referring to in terms of hypertrophy and soreness.   Edit:  These types of approaches are pretty specialized; for young males or  those using "help" in particular they can work in building muscle but the demands of, say, 10x10 lifting sets are very different from most sports.

Re: CrossFit, to me it's sort of potato/potato.  If you look at CrossFit devotees they are obviously fit and have nice physiques, and get obvious social and psychological benefits from the training too.  CrossFit may not have that much specific carryover to skiing or high jumping, but a fit CrossFitter will do much better at either of those than someone who, say, spins a bit and hits the machines at the gym and otherwise has the same skill level. 

Part of the points of departure, other than the commercial disputes that can occur, between CrossFit and various "spinoffs" has been the specificity question, but for most people it'snot a big issue.
Edited by CTKook - 12/8/09 at 11:03am
post #18 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

I experience significant muscle soreness from skiing.  I am prone to soreness and always have been.  When I was young and a group of us would go skiing, I'd always be the one who couldn't get out of bed the next day.  Lunges make me sore the next day and two days later.

I really don't know much about the physiology of sore muscles and fitness.  i can say that I have never been able to go to this level of fitness even when I was young.  It should also be pointed out that CF is not a body building program, it is all about fitness.  I am certain that the term "fitness" could be debated.

I know I sound like a broken record, but CF has been truly amazing for the development of my conditioning.  I apologize for that, but for me, I can't imagine a "program" that could match what this method of fitness provides.

It's easy to type away on the internet and talk about fitness.  Truth is,I am still not in great shape.  But I have lost 25 lbs and get comments about my "apparent" fitness often.  From my limited point of view and based on my experience, strength is a huge part of fitness.  It is a necessary component.  If you lift heavy, I believe that you will get sore muscles.

Paul, it is definitely possible that you are more prone to muscle soreness than is typical.  But it is also possible that you have never been exposed to a really well-designed strength and conditioning program that was tailored to your physiology and your goals.  

I used to think I was fit, but every season when I started skiing, I would be really sore after the first day of skiing, and on a ski trip I'd have lead legs by day 3.  And in fact when I was young, I too always had soreness - especially after the first couple days of basketball practice.  

Then almost 10 years ago I changed the way I trained, and I have not had a sore day since.  Not one.  I have played competitive ultimate frisbee (my team made it to the Canadian national championship finals a couple of years ago), and even the first day of practice, or the day after playing 8 games in a two day tournament, I am not sore.  And I get that while achieving on the field.

Same is true with skiing - the day after my first day on snow is no longer a painful one.  And my legs are no longer unstable in the afternoon of the first day.  When I go on ski vacations, my friends curse me because every single morning of the trip I'm up, dressed, fed, warmed up and bouncing off the walls ready to hit first tracks and by day 3 they are barely able to lift their feet into their snow pants.  And I'm not going easy during the day - I'm finding as much steep, deep and bumpy terrain as I can - all day.  Truth be told, if I spend a whole day in the bumps on a day with no line ups, I will probably finish a bit early. 

I think the concept that soreness = awesome workout is a very, very widespread misconception.  But it is a misconception.  

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying to train light or easy. Absolutely train hard!  But train hard and smart.   

Elsbeth
post #19 of 43
An example of soreness that I have experienced, in addition to lunges, is hips to chest - abs plus, from weighted pull ups.  I have found that they really hit my core and it shows both in increased strength and greater capacity to rely on my core.  I get sore without a doubt from these.  Doing this exercise has improved my pull-ups.  That to me is evidence that it works, but then someone might say - who cares about pull-ups.

A specific example of strength and flexibility that you are referring to would help.  If you could give and example:  How much weight, how many reps, the exercise - the duration and what exercises are used to supplement the set.  The big picture of what an athlete is being asked to perform.

Our strength features are usually one per day, say low bar back squat - work up to 3 sets of 3 at 85% of max rep.  Plenty of rest.  We would only do that lift every say 8-10 days (maybe).  Then we do the workout.

Another thing you will see at CF is people on the floor after the WOD.  Do you need to train to that extreme to attain great fitness levels?

I find that unless I am challenged, physically stressed, I don't progress.  And that I need to keep moving to higher levels of challeng.

When you speak of muscle building vs strength I find it somewhat vague - what could be the difference - bulking up vs functional strength.
post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post

I think the concept that soreness = awesome workout is a very, very widespread misconception.  But it is a misconception.  

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying to train light or easy. Absolutely train hard!  But train hard and smart.   

Elsbeth
 

Good post.  But what do you do???

Lunges make me sore.  It seems like they help - alot.  Dead-lifts make me sore!  They really help my core strength.

This was my best start to the season ever, but I was sore.  I am 55 and still far from being in good shape.

I was a successful competitive swimmer and have trained seriously in my younger years. 
post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

...When you speak of muscle building vs strength I find it somewhat vague - what could be the difference - bulking up vs functional strength.

This is not a knock on CF, because one of the cool parts of CF to me is the emphasis of "functional strength" type exercises.  But take, say, a snowboarder.  Having them do 10x10 sets of squats once every 5 days and eat lots of pizza will build muscle but not enhance their "pop" in thepark.  Having them, if they have the base fitness already, go through a 4 week program of 3-rep max squatting won't make them look any different -- they won't add much if any muscle -- but on average will help their "pop" a lot.  Deadlifts might do them better than squats, but the general point would be the same.
Edited by CTKook - 12/8/09 at 11:48am
post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by canali View Post

  i know of peter twist conditioning....how does it rate to cross conditioning? ( i'm in my mid 40s and may be seeking something that will kick my ass without such an extreme that i'll be going in for hernia operations, if you know what i mean, and taking out a 2nd mortgage for exorbitant fees).

I live in vancouver,  work in burnaby and often travel to the north shore


There are  numerous CF Gyms in Vancouver.
Just go to Crossfit.com ,click on the affiliate page and scroll down to Canada.
post #23 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post




This is not a knock on CF, because one of the cool parts of CF to me is the emphasis of "functional strength" type exercises.  But take, say, a snowboarder.  Having them do 10x10 sets of squats once every 5 days and eat lots of pizza will build muscle but not enhance their "pop" in thepark.  Having them, if they have the base fitness already, go through a 4 week program of 3-rep max squatting won't make them look any different -- they won't add much if any muscle -- but on average will help their "pop" a lot.  Deadlifts might do them better than squats, but the general point would be the same.

 


The things is ,if they were truly CFing they would not be stuck in a 10x10 /5 day routine.
At least they shouldn't be. 
Constantly varied. ,meaning the reps,the weight,the time always changes.
Back squat 3x5 next time you BS maybe  20 rep,next time 5x5 ,whatever.
Mixed with Front squats/deadlifts/cleans,yada yada. You get the drift.
post #24 of 43
Lobo,

What do you think about sore muscles.  I get them every time I walk through the door.  It's apart of my rest/train cycle.  I can't see how an athlete can train high intensity without getting sore at least some of the time.

Sometimes Fran makes me sore

There is no doubt, the level of conditioning and intensity is very high at CrossFit. It's the first program to get me to this level of fitness, but I don't know much about muscle soreness and how it fits.
post #25 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post




Good post.  But what do you do???

Lunges make me sore.  It seems like they help - alot.  Dead-lifts make me sore!  They really help my core strength.

This was my best start to the season ever, but I was sore.  I am 55 and still far from being in good shape.

I was a successful competitive swimmer and have trained seriously in my younger years. 

This is where customization comes in.  At 55, you should be spending a larger percentage of your workout on mobility and corrective exercises than someone who is 25.  And since you were a successful competitive swimmer, I suspect you have some asymmetries and dysfunctional movements that could be contributing to soreness. 

Do you fuel up right after you work out? If so, what do you take in?  Post-workout nutrition can have a HUGE impact on next day soreness.  Protein is very important at this stage, but it needs to be taken with carbohydrates as that is what carries the protein to the muscles.  Ideally you want to take in post-workout nourishment via liquid within about 30 minutes of working out.  In fact it's not a bad idea to make a shake and sip half of it during your workout and the other half after.  Think about 2:1 carb to protein after gym workouts and 4:1 after heavy skiing or other sports.  That actually might be the only thing that's keeping you sore - it's that important!

The soreness might also be from volume.

If I program lunges, it will likely be a lunge and tall reach exercise and it will be 5 reps with a hold for each leg as part of a warm-up - the goal being to improve thoracic spine mobility (from the reach), hip extension and possibly glute activation (if it's a reverse lunge variation).  

Something like deadlifts or squats will be in the main strength portion of the workout, and would likely be 3 sets of 8 or 10, or 4 sets of 4-6, or possibly 2 of 12.  It will depend on the experience of the lifter and where they are in their performance season.  Depending how often someone works out and their goals, I would progress the program every 3-8 weeks.  This allows your body to build but once progress is halted - move on.  For an experienced lifter, I may go to an 'undulating' periodization where the sets/reps/weight changes frequently.  If you're doing more volume than that, then I'd suggest it is not doing you any good - it's just getting you sore.

Also, one of the keys to both gaining strength and reducing soreness is the rest between sets.  I'd either have a 60s to 180s rest between sets (depending on reps), or I would put an exercise in a circuit with 1 to 3 other exercises that work different movements.  This way the muscle fibers get to recover before they are put under stress again. Many WODs that I see are circuit based but they are pairing like exercises together, or they are based on high volume sets (say 30 reps).  This is a good work capacity exercise, and I actually don't mind that periodically to test someone's heart, but otherwise, it is not an effective training approach. But it is a good way to get sore.

The way I am proposing, you will not get that "I'm dying here" feeling that you are getting from many of your CF workouts, but I typically program high intensity intervals after the strength section to work on endurance and work capacity.This would be typically done either on the treadmill or the bike (or sprints outside) and usually less than 15 minutes.  Even there you spend a good portion doing the easy portion of the intervals, but when you go hard - you go HARD. 

What I've just mentioned is pretty typical training approach for most athletic performance gyms.  If you know of one in your area, I'd highly recommend you try it.  Compared to the CF workouts it may not feel like you're working as hard, but give it a month and I suspect you'll notice that you are stronger, more powerful and less sore than you've ever been.  That's a pretty nice combination. :)

Elsbeth
post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by loboskis View Post

The things is ,if they were truly CFing they would not be stuck in a 10x10 /5 day routine.
At least they shouldn't be. 
Constantly varied. ,meaning the reps,the weight,the time always changes.
Back squat 3x5 next time you BS maybe  20 rep,next time 5x5 ,whatever.
Mixed with Front squats/deadlifts/cleans,yada yada. You get the drift.

but what's the benefit of the 20 rep or 10x10 days for a snowboarder?  In addition to being too high volume to yield sports performance benefits, it is also too generic.  

As a strength and conditioning specialist (NSCA-CSCS and NASM-CPT), I like most (definitely not all) of the exercises that are included in WODs, but I dislike most of the set/rep/weight prescriptions.

Elsbeth 
post #27 of 43
delete
post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

What do you like for your WOD type sets.

was that for me? If so, I don't understand what you're asking?  If not, sorry for assuming. :)
post #29 of 43
I missed your post above.  So I deleted.
post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by evaino View Post




but what's the benefit of the 20 rep or 10x10 days for a snowboarder?  In addition to being too high volume to yield sports performance benefits, it is also too generic.  

As a strength and conditioning specialist (NSCA-CSCS and NASM-CPT), I like most (definitely not all) of the exercises that are included in WODs, but I dislike most of the set/rep/weight prescriptions.

Elsbeth 

For Lobo, I should have been more clear that my 10x10 example was sort of the standard "German Volume Training" model.  I did not mean to suggest that this would be a common CF regime. It is one type of workout that can be good at building muscle quickly (but actually doesn't increase maximum strength much or at all in trained individuals).  But as Elsbeth notes is too high volume for sports specific benefits for most sports.

Twight/Gym Jones went for more endurance specificty as one example.  Within the CF model I think it's possible to go for sports specificity, too.  To me it doesn't mean that the "standard" CF model doesn't yield results.  It obviously does.  
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