EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Level 3, Tentative. Movement Analysis
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Level 3, Tentative. Movement Analysis - Page 2

post #31 of 47

Please accept my apologies nerd.


 

post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

 Hmmm?  if she is not comfortable or confident enough to do "boot stomps" or thousand steps, do you think she will be successful with hopping?....

Perhaps pedaling? (weight shifts without lifting ski off the snow) may work well for her?

What are all of your thoughts on my idea of creating simultaneous "steering and extension" movements?
 


*IF* her vertical movement is ok, then hops are more likely to be successful than 1000 steps because there is no shift in balance point from ski to ski.  The balance point can stay.  Hopping will also engage the core to assist in the control of fore/aft balance that is very necessary before tackling lateral balance in this fearful skier.

The bottom line is to give her drills that she can be successful doing.

To my view, steering *and* extension should be addressed only after balance and some upper/lower body separation has been established. At the skill level of this particular skier I fear she'd spend time on perfecting her upper body rotation driving the turn.

There is still much work to be done to get to the point that the teaching of steering will be effective.  Rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets require a very well centered stance, and U/L body separation.  There are many drills that can be applied that preceed that activity -- I'd start with dryland stuff that she'd work on before the next lesson. 

IMO, it's not her crude steering that should be the main focus of the lesson, nor outside ski dominance, nor making round turns.  It's purely movements.  All those elements will happen with ease once she feels she can move with confidence.  Maybe I should make that a signature: "Move with Confidence."
post #33 of 47
nerd, sounds like this is her 3rd day or 1st week learning to ski?  
What I saw that was good were her feet. I liked seeing her consistently keeping her  inside ski, foot ahead, even her inside knee bent more at times. That is positive movement for a beginner regardless of how its weighted.

Bud asked "what else could a girl want?"   Well gentlemen, Girls want to accomplish as much and as many things possible as simply as possible.  

I would suggest the often overlooked rarely taught skill of skating on skis.  As simple as beginning 30 feet away from the lift line entrance, or along a short flat stretch of cattrack. When you think about it, learning that encompasses and accomplishes so much with balance,edging, extension, pressure, movement, weight shift, coordination, etc. and mostly from feeling by doing. Much learned in a short time frame, and improved on each time one clicks in & heads over "there" faster than shuffling.  It also builds confidence when a new skier has a skill beyond "shuffling".  Added benefits - quickly points out boots too big, confidence builder, quicker to the lift line, (don't we all love to pass the slow cars on the freeway ?!)  which equals more run time. and a big safety bonus to be able to nimbly move around on skis. Big help for newer skiers to start learning. Also good for toning muscles, improving endurance, and figure enhancement. We all appreciate that.  I would imagine it makes 1000 steps a bit easier to learn from as well. Steering too since you can't let the skis go just whereever when skating, balancing fore/aft/laterally benefits since it incorporates 1 footedness. Generally adult women tend to like to start simple, and slow enough not to scare.  Skating speeds you up slowly, gets you to the lift line, and each run is better after a short skate.  


Best of all, it's not a drill, it's a highly usefull skill she can use every ski day.
 
post #34 of 47
I haven't read every word in this thread, but looking at the "thumper/foot stomp" vid just now I would say it was a great success!
I think any of the mentioned drills can be used effectively at this level, as long as it is introduced appropriately on non threatening terrain.
JF
post #35 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

Please accept my apologies nerd.


 


no drama. Thanks for all your input on this skier.

When she comes back this season it will be nice to have some different points of view.  Sometimes I get tunnel vision in teaching.  You know, "you only see what you expect to see" sort of thing.  I geek out on all the information, that much is apparent by the name I chose on here.

-nerd
post #36 of 47
I like it Bud. Although I would ask you for some clarity about where and when do you flex to reload for the next extension? 

As for my part in the opposing opinions guys, My comments to E about contrived positions was directly related to the hold one knee and reverse airplane exercises he mentioned way back at the beginning of this thread. A critical analysis of his posted suggestions in post #3 brought up a couple of questions and I noticed an inconsistency in the progression when he left the vertical flex and extend world, to work on angulation and the lateral world. Quite frankly, If I was a student and was asked to explore more vertical movements and then we move directly to restricting it by about half (by having me hang onto a knee), I would wonder why I explored that greater range in the first place? See the disconnect? There has to be some intermediate steps E failed to post. E, maybe if you posted those missing steps that progression would make more sense.
  
As far as reverse airplanes, I have been tasked by our training director (Bob Barnes) to coach our staff to not use them because of the very contrived, bent at the waist position it promotes. It's simply not a bio-mechanically strong position and involves a much bigger upper body move than he wants to see used to pressure the outside ski. IMO Bob's right in that better options exist that don't involve the big sideways jack knifing associated with this maneuver.

 I welcome E's critical analysis and don't see disagreeing as anything more than two seasoned pros working in different systems. But enough about all these past posts, Our respective systems agree about much, but not all. Agree to disagree and move on is my motto. Which is why in post 19 the last sentence of the first paragraph was intended to steer the discussion away from the circular debate about who's advice was superior and the second paragraph was an attempt to shift focus to the subject of the effects over terraining.

BTW The Rusty, I agree with you that the more experience and mileage they get, the easier that terrain becomes. My feeling is that if it's shorter in duration the "exploring" is an "adventure" and it's easier to sell going there in the first place. But we need to be careful because spending too much time pushing them to ski harder terrain can easily be misinterpreted as me (or any other instructor) wanting to ski steeper terrain. A complaint none of us want to deal with as the SSD comps the student a lesson with another pro. We're lucky at Keystone because our wide variety of terrain also includes so many little pitches that work really well for short excursions into more difficult terrain. Not to mention we also have teaching privileges at all of Vail's ski resort properties. So I never run out of terrain.

P>S> MY appologies for the posting this here, I wrote most of it earlier but got called away. Bud I would especially love to here your answer to my question about the flexing and how it relates to you extend and steer idea...
Edited by justanotherskipro - 9/3/09 at 4:29pm
post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

As far as reverse airplanes, I have been tasked by our training director (Bob Barnes) to coach our staff to not use them because of the very contrived, bent at the waist position it promotes. It's simply not a bio-mechanically strong position and involves a much bigger upper body move than he wants to see used to pressure the outside ski. IMO Bob's right in that better options exist that don't involve the big sideways jack knifing associated with this maneuver.
 

What "better option" approaches will you encourage Keystone instructors to use to develop outside ski pressure this year?  (Even though I drink the koolaid, I'm still interested in how the rest of the world skis.)
post #38 of 47
SE I'll PM you that information...
post #39 of 47
JASP,

I began with the notion that, there were two things I'd focus on: movement and outside ski dominance.  The hands on knees and reverse airplanes are drills that are designed for killing the rotation and building outside ski dominance.  In my book they are the "industrial strength" solution.

After further thought, I switched my postings to focus on  just going for more movement.  It seemed to me that the importance of getting the skier to increase their range of movement, and therefore their ability to balance, was being distracted by the 1000 steps.

The 1000 steps is a wonderful drill.  But only if it can be applied to a skier that can learn do it successfully.

nerd,

The thing about "turning a blind eye" is that the student is probably not doing that.  So, when we support a students efforts, we support ALL of their efforts - even the ones that we've ignored.  That includes going rigid when stomping the inside ski.  I prefer to go for the drills that are within the students grasp and that don't ingrain other problems.  To me, that's a win-win situation.

911over,

I agree with the skating lesson, but only after there was some success and confidence created by first increasing the range of movement.  Then skating becomes a natural extension of the movements that were learned, another confidence builder and it introduces weight transfer.
post #40 of 47
SE, I sent a PM with that information. Mostly because Ski Nerd has asked we focus on positive and constructive advice. My last post was only to explain why I questioned E's original post. He has since added a lot more of the intermediate steps he excluded earlier. Please PM me your thought on the information i sent you.
post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

BTW The Rusty, I agree with you that the more experience and mileage they get, the easier that terrain becomes. My feeling is that if it's shorter in duration the "exploring" is an "adventure" and it's easier to sell going there in the first place. But we need to be careful because spending too much time pushing them to ski harder terrain can easily be misinterpreted as me (or any other instructor) wanting to ski steeper terrain. A complaint none of us want to deal with as the SSD comps the student a lesson with another pro. We're lucky at Keystone because our wide variety of terrain also includes so many little pitches that work really well for short excursions into more difficult terrain. Not to mention we also have teaching privileges at all of Vail's ski resort properties. So I never run out of terrain.
 
My resort has relatively consistent pitches. We don't have many options to use little pitches. Moving to a steeper pitch requires assessment, planning and commitment. I need to see a lot before I even ask a student if they want to move up. I'm lucky at Whitetail because no one can accuse me of wanting to ski steep terrain unless they have seen me with a plane ticket. Our steepest pitch is 30 degrees.
post #42 of 47
The Rusty,
I am lucky that we have Dercum Mountain for all the terrain rolls of about ten turns or so. Although I have also found a lot more shorter examples of this terrain by shifting my "route filter". Leading a student(s) around these slightly steeper terrain variations is something we all do regularly. Once the student(s) can navigate that slope and avoid those small variations, many instructors make the mistake of moving to a different slope. Why not stay on that slope a little longer and explore all of these little rolls as the next step in their progression to steeper terrain? If they can handle a few turns on these slightly steeper rolls on the present slope, it suggests they can handle a longer section of slope of similar steepness. If not, they still have the option of skiing around them on exactly the same terrain they have been skiing.
We've actually included this in our suggested terrain usage training for beginner lessons. An example of this is how we use Scout. It's one of our first runs after the magic carpet corrals. One side has a short section that closely approximates the overall steepness of Schoolmarm. So we can test the group's ability to handle four turns before asking them to ski an entire run of that steepness. Schoolmarm has sections and terrain variations that we can use to test their readiness for Schoolmaster and Silver Spring. For new instructors this helps them choose appropriate terrain and seasoned pros can certainly stray from this matrix but it's their suggestions that we used to develop the guide in the first place.  

Aspen/Snowmass actually developed a whole set of suggested terrain choices for every level. This guide also is broken down into tentative, comfortable, and aggressive skier types. So it's a lot more comprehensive in scope and detail. The one thing they have in common is the resorts have a lot of terrain. For smaller mountains the slope choice can be more limited but the usage of the small terrain bumps and rolls is just as valid.
post #43 of 47

Yep, sure, absolutely. My mountain has 117 skiable acres (when we're 100% open). To put that in perspective, my guess is that Schoolmarm alone is > 50% of that acreage. Our group lessons are 90 minutes long and privates are 1 hour. We get really good at milking terrain. Being able to make that step up can make the difference between a boring lesson and an exciting one. It can also be a recipe for a waste of time or even worse, a disaster. I'll be passing these kinds of tips to a new batch of rookies in another 3 months.

 

I do teach "Safety, Fun and Learning" (in that order). Although I have no problem with Nerd making the call to put this student in a situation where she is standing on her heels, I wouldn't necesarily have done or not done this in this situation because we don't have the whole story. But we do have enough information for me to say that this skier would not have been a candidate for moving up trail difficulty at my home mountain. Our snow is faster (i.e. "firmer"). Our trails are narrower. Our trails are more crowded. These are just some of the things that we need to think about before we make the decision to possibly over terrain someone. In my book, as long as the student can safely navigate the steeper terrain and is likely to have fun doing so, then they are candidate for "moving up" even if they might not learn anything. Other pros use other books. As long as safety is not grossly compromised (given that skiing itself is inherently compromising safety), I'm ok with that.

post #44 of 47

Gotta use what you got, and make it work. Exploiting the terrain available is always on my mind and in some ways having so much terrain is a problem. Too many choices exist and newer instructors may not know about some of the steeper faces on some of our runs. So the defensive on your heels phenomenon occurs too often, which should explain the need for a guide at our mountain. Like you, I see the value in over terraining in small doses but the skier's attitude is often a more important consideration than their aptitude. The level three / four skier might be slightly over terrained but it is her timidity and defensive movements that are a bigger concern. You can lead a horse to water...

post #45 of 47
Hey JASP,

I try to get students to extend to the fall line then flex to the finish.  Focusing on the top of the turn with the "steer and extend" accomplishes a couple things, while teaching a fluid blend of two movements it isolates lower leg steering so the turning power is changed from upper body rotation to lower leg steering, and it teaches the accompanying extension to facilitate edge change and develop a movement into the turn rather than vertical like a tree grows.  Taking the time to ingrain these two movements together in wedge turns or xties on easy terrain will develop fluidity and rhythm.   Once this steer and extend movement is grasped in the top of the turn I will focus on the last half of the turn to develop good angulation and balance over the outside ski.  The skier will begin to develop a long leg/short leg relationship and this concept all comes together quite nicely.

 Ability to balance over the outside ski, ability to turn the feet underneath a quiet upper body is achieved.

I am not a big fan, at this skier's tentative mindset and technical abilities, of trying to get her to engage a strong inside edge grip before the fall line.  I think she will be more comfortable and experience more success finding a lighter edge engagement while using lower leg steering as the turning power, developing a higher edge angle as the turn progresses.  Once she has a good feeling for these mechanics, increasing the speed and engaging the inside edge a bit higher while moving appropriately forward to engage the shovel will come more easily.  Learning that proper blend of edge angle and forward and lateral projection is a bit higher skill level.   It is too easy for a skier to tip the ski too high too early and fall to the inside or revert to upper body rotation to save themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I like it Bud. Although I would ask you for some clarity about where and when do you flex to reload for the next extension? 
 

Edited by bud heishman - 9/7/09 at 5:50pm
post #46 of 47
Good thoughts Bud. So many here will disagree with the extend to the fall line, flex to the finish idea but it does work extremely well. As an alternative to all the stepping it makes a lot of sense. The primary reason I use the stepping is to get them motoring around without gravity being a motive force of any consequence. Not to mention it's a transfer of their walking skills up through the point of the shuffles and gliding. It's also a bridge from cross lateral to bilateral movements and rudimentary lateral balancing skills like short leg / long leg bilateral movements.
post #47 of 47
Hi nerd. You're doing a nice job with her. 

I'm not familiar with the "stomp drill" term, so I'm not sure of the execution requirements, but from what I see her doing it appears simply lifting repeately the inside ski through the duration of the turn. Correct?  If so, I call it inside taps, and it's a good starting point for developing lateral balance skills.  She appears to be doing very well at it. 

The thing that strikes me with her is her severe tenativness with fore/aft.  If she waivers out of her perferred fore/aft balance state even slightly she freaks and her hands start waiving.  I'd address that pretty quickly with fore/aft drills that gradually gets her more comfortable skiing in different states of fore/aft balance.  I generally address this skill area pretty early on. 

And because you've already breached the lateral balance skill development area, once you develop some fore/aft skill and comfort you can continue your lateral balance training by combining some fore/aft with it through the inside tip/tail lift drills. 

Yes, she's stiff, but it's to be expected when one is that nervous about being tossed out of their narrow balance comfort zone.  Once you get the fore/aft issue ironed out, some simple knee bends through the turn helps loosen em up and get em moving. 

And as part of your edging skills training with her hit turn shape early on.  Various radii, and I find start long radius finsh short is great for removing any rotation/pivot entry issues, which there usually are.  Hands on hips are good for rotary issues too. 

All the drills suggested by the folks here are good, used in the proper context of the progression you're employing and the issues you see.  

 . 
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Level 3, Tentative. Movement Analysis