EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Question for experienced skiers
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Question for experienced skiers

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Assuming you have a student, say lower intermediate and you have a choice of skis to put him on for the lesson, do you prefer him to be on softer narrow waisted carving skis or softer mid fats? I ask this because of the mid fats virtually taking over yet in lessons I'm often asked to make very short radius turns which are not the forte of my mid fat Volants. Jump turns are not yet in my repertoire! While midfats are great fun in less than perfect snow are they possibly retarding my progress? skidoc :
post #2 of 22
Whoa! Great question, skidoc.

I'm curious to see some answers.

One clarification, perhaps. Would the lessons you're referring to take place most often on groomed runs or out in the junk (or a combination)? What are you typically trying to learn?

Bob
post #3 of 22
In general, I think the midfats are better for skiers who have not mastered carved turns. I think they are a lttle more stable and easier to flatten as you make the edge change. Narrower skis tend to get on edge too quickly for someone who is not ready to make an early committment to the new turn.

John
post #4 of 22
Skidoc,

Last year, our resort purchase quite a few Head Big Easys for rental stock. Many of my students used them. They are a soft hyper-carver with dimensions of 120-70-104? ( I am not sure of the tail). Most student progressed faster than the narrower skis. I have a pair and they are a lot of fun, if you don't want to go fast. I think they are ideal for learning.
post #5 of 22
Thread Starter 
Bob, to clarify I usually ski at Whistler (for convenience sake) and lessons are usually to "improve my overall skiing". As you may know the crowds at Whister make the pistes resemble mini-moguls by noon and if it's snowing it's that much worse. My instructors usually seem to like taking me through on and off piste routes including blue square bumps. I'm terrible in bumps and the one other area that was awkward was on groomed black runs. I was told to make SLOW small turns which were awkward with my mid fats. Seemed like slooww zip sloow etc. Course for all I know it would have been the same on carving skis with a short radius? skidoc
post #6 of 22
Depends what they want, of course, but generally I'd prefer to work with a lower intermediate on the skis that they own for the simple reason that they'll get more out of the lesson if they will be able to apply it when the lesson is over. An exception might be if they own old, straight, long boards, in which case I might take them into the ski-school shop and grab a pair of shapes so they can see what all the hoopla is about.

If they don't own, I would suggest any intermediate-aimed ski in the 100+/65-70/90-100 range.

If I were to tell you to make SLOW small turns, I'd expect to also tell you (or, preferably, show you--TEACH you) HOW.
post #7 of 22
From your 2nd post, skidoc, my gut feeling is you might want to get back on the narrower-waisted skis...just to get the feel you're after. Then you won't notice the fatness of the midfats (I don't!, but I do notice the narrowness of on-piste skis). I have a notion that faster edge to edge might be a good thing for you. I have a feeling that you're not commiting to the new turn early enough, and getting a feeling of out of control speeding-up before the skis "come around"? Narrower waisted skis might help get you feeling the edges earlier.
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by skidoc:
Bob, to clarify I usually ski at Whistler (for convenience sake) and lessons are usually to "improve my overall skiing". As you may know the crowds at Whister make the pistes resemble mini-moguls by noon and if it's snowing it's that much worse. My instructors usually seem to like taking me through on and off piste routes including blue square bumps. I'm terrible in bumps and the one other area that was awkward was on groomed black runs. I was told to make SLOW small turns which were awkward with my mid fats. Seemed like slooww zip sloow etc. Course for all I know it would have been the same on carving skis with a short radius? skidoc
skidoc:

First I have to insert the disclaimer - I'm not an instructor, I'm just a plain old skier. (I feel like an interloper even posting "advice" on the Technique & Instruction thread, but what the heck).

Based on what you say, I think one of the "recreational" short slalom skis would be great for you. They're very forgiving, turn on a dime, and will very definitely reward you when you make good turns. Keep in mind that "narrow waist" doesn't have to mean "technically demanding" or even "lacks versatility". Many skiers are moving to this ski category as a fun ski that they can use in all conditions except deeper snow and crud (and you've already got good skis for that).

Take a look at this site:

http://www.techsupportforskiers.com/...LFOOTPRINT.htm

Anything there that mentions "easy, more forgiving, versatile, less demanding, etc." would probably be a great choice.

If you can afford to get another pair of skis and don't mind traveling with them, I think a ski like this would accomplish everything you're looking for.

Bob
post #9 of 22
If the snow is firm or groomed, I much prefer the narrower skis.

The reason is that they initiate quicker and come out of the turn quicker without having to rely on overpivoting the ski. I think the mid-fats are easy because they make it easy to over pivot. Now I don't have a problem with steering, but I think the movement of overpivoting (fast steering, breaking off the edge hold) creates an imbalance in the carving<-->steering continuum. If the skier once senses how quickly a good edge gets into and out of the turn, they he or she can easily learn both carving and pivoting. Later on, the midfats are great, because the student has more technique to use all the tools and moves.

By the way, the overpivoting move is a great braking maneuver, but I don't want to ski with one foot on the gas and the other on the brakes.
post #10 of 22
Doc:

Uncle Yuki's RX for your problem ....... real simple! DEMO DAY!

There is no perfect ski for all conditions. On a powder day you will be longing for something with some float. On the groomers, if you want those cool tight trenches a shorter ski with an SL cut will be your best friend.

Here in the East I tend to favor a ski that has some grip on the ice. To you at Whistler, that's probably a rare event.

Most of the big resorts have a ski center, I think affiliated with Ski Magazine, usually a big tent right out in front of the lifts. They have all kinds of goodies, there is a rental type fee but if memory serves, you can demo till you drop and the price of the demo is deducted if you buy.

Last year Saloman and Atomic came to out to our hill and had demos that were limited to two runs ......... probably one run on a real mountain. But you could play for free and only had to leave a drivers license or a credit card for security.

Take a good look at what the instructor is on during your lesson. If he/she is on a 15 m ski in a 155, do you think that you are going to match arcs with them on your longer fats?
post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the great input. Weems I think you have something there in that unless I have decent snow and uncrowded conditions to make bigger turns I can't concentrate on smooth transitions. I think a narrow waisted ski with some versatility might just be the ticket for those non-dumping days. Yuki, you might be surprised how much "ice" I encounter on the pistes of Whistler. Granted the dark blue and black runs are in better shape since they get alot less traffic. ant and Bob I think maybe a narrow waisted ski with some forgiveness might be a good learning tool. I must admit my Volant Gravity Powers (71mm) are so fun and easy in marginal snow I'm often tempted to just ski and neglect honing any technique. Thanks again! skidoc
post #12 of 22
Doc,

I tried midfats and decided they aren't for me.

I'm going for slaloms for the frontside, and when I get good enough to need them, I'll get some fats.

Narrow waisted skis are appropriate for the the skiing that MOST people do. I think the public is doing itself a disservice by skiing on midfats.

LB
post #13 of 22
Doc,

Being a Whistler skier myself I prefer to ski on the mid-fats(70 waist). I just find they work better in the varying conditions we get. However by the sounds of it, I think you would benefit from a couple of days on a narrower ski to help get the feeling of earlier edge and smoother transition. The narrow waist and smaller raduis would really give you the feeling your looking. When I'm teaching, I find that most students, beginners to expert, are more comfortable on the mid-fats. With the exception of beginners, I find no difference in learning between the two skis.

Cheers, Meesh
post #14 of 22
Sounds like you're WANTING to get back to the narrower, deeper sidecut skis, SkiDoc. So do it!

One unfortunate downside to all the great skis that have come out recently--which includes some of the most versatile go-anywhere, do-anything skis ever made--is that I see more and more people worrying about whether they're on the "right" ski or not. The fact is, a skier with well-balanced skills can ski any size turn anywhere on any ski! Sure, there might be a slightly better specialized ski for some given condition, but rather than obsessing over it, just ski the skis you're on--and have fun!

The narrow-waisted, deep-sidecut (meaning wide tip and tail) skis are GREAT for carving turns. They aren't PERFECT for soft, deep stuff, but they work fine. For the last several seasons, I've skied Elan's SCX line and top-of-the-line HyperCarve everywhere. It's a little "bouncy" in bumps, and doesn't float like a wider platform in powder, but it's still WAY FUN. And when you get it on the groomed, those built-in grins really come out!

As a final, technical explanation to help convince you, here is my in-depth essay on the benefits of sidecut:



(Note that the size of your grin is directly proportional to the depth of the sidecut of your skis.)



Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ October 31, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #15 of 22
sharp ones work best
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
Bob, actually I prefer my midfats because they do ok on firm stuff and are sooo much fun in chopped up snow. Problem is I don't have the skill to make shorter turns with them so I'm tempted to simply run faster and straighter. It's great fun but I suspect I'm short changing myself. Tell you what, I'm going to try some narrow skis for the first time in 2 years this Dec. in Whistler and give you some feedback for what it's worth. I salivate when I see better skiers do a U turn with their skis. Sometimes I can actually do that but only my legs and body know how, my brain has no idea how it is accomplished! Still learning, skidoc
post #17 of 22
Skidoc - try a lesson with those guys in Fox's thread - they are really good!
post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
disski, I actually wrote down the names and plan on checking them out if my usual instructor is not there. I really do like to take lessons although it can be hard work when my 30 y/o instructor wants to give me my money's worth and my 43 y/o legs are giving up the ghost. skidoc
post #19 of 22
Roger & Kevin are REALLY good

I'm a big fuss pot & almost as old as you are & with a disability - & an overweight female - talk about a challenge!

Have fun
Think about a change - good as a holiday [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #20 of 22
actually, making those 360 turns is something I would like to do with my super euro carvers (Stockli Raver XPs). Never found a run steep and wide enough to do it (at Keystone and in Oz). in theory, given enough room and speed, they will do a full circle. Almost did it a few times at Keystone, but lacked space and speed. Had fun trying though!
The base of River Run was about right, but tended to be too crowded to pull this off. People have trouble dealing with someone fanging uphill at them.
post #21 of 22
To the origional question, what ski for a one lesson signifigant growth experiance? Short, narrow, lots of sidecut. All of these aspects combine to challenge balance, enhance awareness of cause and effect, and reward distinctivly when movements are efficient and in effective order. For the low-intermediate, maybe a narrow waisted, big sidecut 120-140cm. For Intermediated to advanced, snowblades or skiboards. Use the feet to tip'em arc'em slice'em & dice'em. Explore centered stance to free up lateral movement range. Create angles that bend the skis into that big grin Bob sketched for us.


[ November 01, 2002, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #22 of 22
skidoc,

Get a mid-fat with a lot of shape. The generous waist (around 70mm) will help over rough snow and the wide tip/tail will help you initiate turns and hold a decent carve. And remeber to keep the skis short. An example is the Fischer Sceneo S400 ski (but there are several others as well). Meant to be skied short and with dimensions of 118-68-100 they can carve or skid a turn.

Such skis will lack the quickness of narrower waisted recreational slaloms, but unless you are very experienced you will never notice.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Question for experienced skiers