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# Angulate / Edge

Physics Man:

I think dchan is onto something here.I think you may be confusing flexibility,ie-range of joint motion vs the need for resistance in your stance,to support you,when making say a medium radius turn on a relatively moderate,(20%)sloped pitch.

Visualize two world cup racers coming through a high speed turn,super-G,on a relatively mild pitched slope.For discussion purposes we'll assume that each is skiing at approximately the same speed and each is required to use some amount of angulation.

One is a man and one is a woman.The man,almost without question,will exhibit less angulation then the female racer.The man's knee-hip-torso joints will appear much less bent at a given point and not be as far inside the turn.The female racer's joints and hip will be very evident that her hip is well inside the turn,at the same point.

The male racer will appear to stand taller. Why??? The female racer will invariably have her knee-hip-torso joint angles much more severe then the male racer. We also need to assume for this discussion that both are carving similar turns.

So is the difference really important that the female racer is significantly more angulated ie-more flexible,then the male racer, to acquire the same edge angle or is this really a situation where the greater flexibility seen in the female racer is needed, due to possibly less overall strength then the male racer has,to achieve the same edge angle?

So ultimately, is it flexibility that's important to gain greater edge to slope angle??? or is greater edge angle,as a factor of angulation, the result of some combination of strength and stance width,in a dynamic state as either racer moves through the same turn?????

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 18, 2001 04:51 AM: Message edited 1 time, by whtmt ]</font>
whtmtn -

That was an absolutely fantastic question. The distinction you made is one that I had never previously paid any attention to. Great to have you on-board here!

Unfortunately, I've got to get up quite early tmmrw AM, and will then be at meetings all day, so I probably am not going to be able to give a full response until late tmmrw evening (or at worst, the next day).

However, in the meantime, so that I can have something to mull over, let me ask (in no particular order) some questions to clarify your observation and the assumptions you are making in your example:

1) Do you feel the M/F difference in angulation will still hold in a narrow stance (or almost equivalently, with hardly any weight on the inside ski)?

2) Here is a slightly different version of the same question: Do you see a similar difference in joint angulation between a male and female snowboarder carving the exact same curve at the same speed? Obviously this situation is quite different because the foot is crosswise to the 'board, but in spite of this, the answer should still be telling.

3) Do you think your observation would continue to be true if the M and F skiers both are of equal height and weight? How 'bout if the female has narrow hips and similar "Q" angles to the male? (Obviously, what I'm trying to do by these questions is make sure that your observation pertains to just a strength vs. range-of-motion issue, and doesn't inadvertently involve other variables.

I have some ideas on this, but because I'm not a pro skier / racer (and hence, have much less opportunity to observe), I will go with the observations and opinions of you and the other pros on these questions.

4) Are you assuming that we are looking at both the M & F skiers just as they come around a gate and pass through the fall line? Or, are you thinking about them just b4 the transition between turns (or somewhere else in their turns)? Furthermore, can I assume that both skiers are holding their turn radius and snow speed constant for a short period of time?

5) Let me call the angle that the net force acting on the skier (gravity plus centrifugal) makes with the horizontal the "net force angle".

6) Let me call the angle that a line going from the skier's CM to the active edge makes with respect to the horizontal the "angle of bank".

7) If your answer to my first question is "yes", and we can discuss this situation as if only one edge is involved, THEN the angle of bank MUST be exactly equal to the net force angle for the skier not to fall over (as long as the skier is in mechanical equilibrium). I just want to make sure we both agree on this fundamental issue.

8) Can you tell me exactly how you prefer to define angulation? Do you prefer to do it in terms of the joint angles involved, or do you prefer to define it as its final endproduct, the extra degree of edging beyond the angle of bank? I tend to prefer the latter definition, while from your question, I suspect that you prefer the former. We may need names for both of these quantities.

Anyway, enough questions for tonight. I've got to go to bed. Laughably, I thought this was going to be a short post - grin.

One final point. At some level, all I really wanted to know by posing my original question was how does my flexibility stack up to that of other guys (strength vs. flexibility issues, not withstanding). While I've received a stack of interesting replies to my original post, unfortunately, not one person has given me a number. I know its awfully bizarre to be clomping around on hard floors with skis and a protractor, but I'm still interested. Anyone - Pretty Pleeeeze [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Tom / PM
This is pure opinion on my part, not hard science. But 28 years in the fitness industry have taught me that once an element of fitness moves from the static to the dynamic, it must be balanced with other elements to be functional. A woman with marvelous flexibility will be like gumby on the hill without strength to balance it out. A strong person with no balance and stability may over power their skis. A balanced and stable yogi who can do the TREE forever may not have enough leg stength to use that balance dynamically. A strong, flexible, stable and balanced person will lose all of that on the slopes due to fatigue, if they have no endurance.

And so on and so on and scooby dooby dooby.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 17, 2001 11:38 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Lisamarie ]</font>
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