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Sybervision - Page 2

post #31 of 52

Another thought, related (I think) to Zentune's above...

 

If you were trying to make very quick short radius turns on modern skis, but instead of using a 12m slalom ski you had something closer to a longer ~30m GS ski, might your technique more closely approximate the guys' from 1985?

post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

Another thought, related (I think) to Zentune's above...

 

If you were trying to make very quick short radius turns on modern skis, but instead of using a 12m slalom ski you had something closer to a longer ~30m GS ski, might your technique more closely approximate the guys' from 1985?

 

At first, I would tend to think so simply because the change in sidecut may be the primary difference between an '85 and a '15 ski. But then I go on to think about the modern skier's technique adjustments in making short turns on 30m skis and simply do not see him skiing like the 1985 guy except for an equivalent amount of skidding. The modern skier's technical habits will not simply disappear and modify only a small amount needed to force the  big ski around a small turn.

post #33 of 52

Your comments make me think of wooden tennis rackets. There was definitely a style characterized by certain choices of stance, grips and swing paths that tend to be associated with those older sticks, but I agree a modern player, (if they can get over how different a wooden racket feels), can use modern choices instead. It won't be as easy, and I'm not suggesting someone could win say the US Open playing with a wooden racket, ;-), but a modern player can play solid tennis using modern style with a wooden racket. And actually if you are willing to consider Laver and Borg the progenitors of Federer and Nadal, they were really playing a remarkably modern style back in their day, with the old sticks!

 

Back on the ski track, unfortunately have to run now, but have more I'd like to discuss RE 1985 vs 2015 technique - mo later.

 

Thx for your comments.
 


Edited by jc-ski - 11/4/15 at 4:40pm
post #34 of 52

Yes, the tennis and golf analogies may work better than the vocational analogy on a physical basis. However, I think it can be said that a club or racket shares very little of the the level of biomecnanical relationship that is established between the body and ski equipment. The most complex prosthetic devices available do not reach near the level of sophistication involved with ski, binding and boot design for functional integration with the human body

 

Again, while I believe the core athletic fundamental skills are the same, yet not to the even point where we are using all the same muscles. Modern day race courses have stretched the potential of modern day skis to limits that are far more competitive than ever before. In that light, today's technique is far more sophisticated than that of circa 1980. What they coached as athletics then is almost all science now. No longer can a coach effect advantage with words and demonstration alone but now use all types of scientific technology to measure every aspect of body mechanics, technique, tactics, athletic skill, equipment, race courses and all the way down to finite aspects such as using data to study whether it is faster to block a flush all with the same hand or not.

 

How quickly can the 80's guy learn to ski today's skis? Far to speculative with endless variables with which to come to any sane conclusion. However, that certainly means nothing to some here. :)

post #35 of 52

It's one thing to race and coach World Cup or some high level competitive skiing approaching that. It's something else altogether to provide some kind of instruction method with the aim of making ordinary skiers better.

 

For discussion purposes going forward can we focus on the latter? Perhaps my fault for using race skis in a hypothetical, but I didn't mean to steer ;-) this conversation into a racing focus.

post #36 of 52

1985

 

 

 

 

post #37 of 52

Nice break down of frames with the last one including all. A nice example of an effective teaching tool. 

 

Just to be clear, I was considering this conversation in the context of recreational skiing and reference 165 sl skis because it seems to be the most popular model type for turn demos of the recreational instruction pros. 

 

The major changes in ski design centered around sidecut occurred for me mid-ski "career" in my early 20's and have a lot of skiing background (miles) in both genres. It is my feeling that the differences in the ideal ski technique of 1985 vs today's goes beyond the aesthetics of a superficial nature. For those that believe ski technique or, rather, kinetic chain, originates from the ground up, the change in the  ski "on the ground" represents the change in technique from the ground up. It is possible that my opinion on your theoretical proposition stems from my own experiences that may not be representative of the norm.

post #38 of 52

Well, we all know the Devil's in the details, so I figured you wouldn't be able to resist delving into this discussion. Given you've "been there, done that" and moved on to embrace the new(er) you have a certain amount of automatic cred as far as I'm concerned.

 

Thx again for sharing your comments.


Edited by jc-ski - 11/5/15 at 2:54pm
post #39 of 52

2015

 

 

 

 

post #40 of 52

2015 meet 1985

 

post #41 of 52

...and that is why not too many people are jumping into this discussion.

 

I'd like to see both from the side making these turns.

post #42 of 52

post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

2015 meet 1985

 


How did you do that?  It's amazing.

post #44 of 52
For anyone interested in how the animated GIF's were created... (Click to show)
On a Windows PC I used Alt-PrtScn to get screen grabs from a video player and then pasted into a new file in MS Paint. Next I selected just the video area, (to get rid of the app window, controls, etc), and copied and pasted that into a new file to create the basis for each image file. Using simple MS Paint tools added the small rectangle and numbering top left to make it easier to identify each individual image. Used a free online (web-based) program to upload the set of a dozen files, set the playback timing, etc, and crank out an animated GIF.

Once I had the sets of images for 1985 and 2015 I thought it would be good to combine them in an animated GIF in a splitscreen, but I couldn't find a GIF generator that offered that capability, so I went back into MS Paint and created an image that had a larger background (canvas) than would be needed for two stacked images. Then in another instance of MS Paint I opened 2015 image file 1, hit Ctrl-A (Select All), Copy (to get on clipboard, then went over to the first MS Paint (with the big canvas) and hit Paste. That put the image file in the top left of what would ultimately be the new combined image.

Next went back to second MS Paint and opened 1985 image file 1, and repeated the steps above, only rather than leaving the newly copied image topleft I dragged it carefully so it lined up just under the 2015 image. I actually had to drag-resize the width after doing that because I didn't make the original image files for both sets the same size. If I ever do this again I'll just make sure the video player window is sized the same when I make the original frame grabs to avoid that.

At that point I used the MS Paint select tool to outline just the combined image (2015 and 1985 stacked images sitting on the larger background), and copied and pasted that into a new image file. Went through all that process above to create a set of 12 combined images, then used that set with the online animated GIF creator to crank out the final product.

Labor intensive, and perhaps there's an automated way to do the same thing in a more robust application like PhotoShop, but all in all not too bad, free, and the result seems adequate.

 

Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

I got to thinking about the Sybervision tape again after watching the recent JF Beaulieu / Reilly McGlashan / Paul Lorenz Collaboration video. They both feature superb skiers making short and longer turns, and I was pondering what was similar and what was different about the skiing separated by 30 years.

 

That ^^^ was my original motivation. I went in with some ideas about what I thought might be going on, but not with an agenda to arrive at a preconceived result. I found a section of the 1985 video that clearly showed the skier's body and skis in a couple of turns, and decided to made a set of grabs that roughly follow this pattern...

 

Image 01   In fall line

Image 02   Bottom half right turn begins

Image 03   Bottom half right turn tightens

Image 04   Release begins

Image 05   Transition-Neutral

Image 06   Top half left turn begins

Image 07   In fall line

Image 08   Bottom half left turn begins

Image 09   Bottom half left turn tightens

Image 10   Release begins

Image 11   Transition-Neutral

Image 12   Top half right turn begins

 

Then I searched for a section of the 2015 video that would give me a couple of turns from roughly the same viewpoint, and repeated the process to grab frames for another image set.

 

My preconceived ideas were that with the 1985 skier the focus was on working the front of the ski, both to steer it around and pressure it after transition, whereas 2015 seemed more to flatten at transition and then tip to edge, working more of the whole ski. It would be interesting to have a side view of the same turns for both, but unfortunately don't have that available to compare.

 

From the front view using the image sets and especially the combined animated GIF the conclusion I draw is that the skiing is remarkably similar, the biggest differences being that the 1985 skier works in a more pronounced manner from outside ski to outside ski, and does not get and stay as low as the 2015 skier.

 

Otherwise to my eye they both transition to the new turn by flexing/relaxing the old outside ski, and allowing pressure to smoothly build on the new outside ski. 1985 doesn't step heavy onto the new outside ski, and there is no pronounced up (body) move. 2015 works hard to keep both skis on the snow at all times with a continuously low stance and heavy flexing/retraction, but there is still a pressure move from outside ski to outside ski.

 

How do you see things?


Edited by jc-ski - 11/6/15 at 12:41pm
post #45 of 52

JC - Great presentation for movement analysis comparison. Very well lined up on a variety of levels.

 

I think that this perspective does support a similarity in gross motor skill and movements for skiing. That said, it is the devil in the details of fine motor skills that we do not see as clearly and are the ones, in my opinion, that are primarily responsible for the difference in ski performance between the two videos. Conceptually, that is going to be inherently difficult to argue as the differences in ski design can claim that same attribute and we are left with the question: what came first, the chicken or the chicken fetus? (or something like that).

 

In an attempt to avoid similar conundrums of comparisson, a question I have for you would be: Which skier do you think would adapt more quickly to the other's ski and why?

post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
  For anyone interested in how the animated GIF's were created... (Click to show)
On a Windows PC I used Alt-PrtScn to get screen grabs from a video player and then pasted into a new file in MS Paint. Next I selected just the video area, (to get rid of the app window, controls, etc), and copied and pasted that into a new file to create the basis for each image file. Using simple MS Paint tools added the small rectangle and numbering top left to make it easier to identify each individual image. Used a free online (web-based) program to upload the set of a dozen files, set the playback timing, etc, and crank out an animated GIF.

Once I had the sets of images for 1985 and 2015 I thought it would be good to combine them in an animated GIF in a splitscreen, but I couldn't find a GIF generator that offered that capability, so I went back into MS Paint and created an image that had a larger background (canvas) than would be needed for two stacked images. Then in another instance of MS Paint I opened 2015 image file 1, hit Ctrl-A (Select All), Copy (to get on clipboard, then went over to the first MS Paint (with the big canvas) and hit Paste. That put the image file in the top left of what would ultimately be the new combined image.

Next went back to second MS Paint and opened 1985 image file 1, and repeated the steps above, only rather than leaving the newly copied image topleft I dragged it carefully so it lined up just under the 2015 image. I actually had to drag-resize the width after doing that because I didn't make the original image files for both sets the same size. If I ever do this again I'll just make sure the video player window is sized the same when I make the original frame grabs to avoid that.

At that point I used the MS Paint select tool to outline just the combined image (2015 and 1985 stacked images sitting on the larger background), and copied and pasted that into a new image file. Went through all that process above to create a set of 12 combined images, then used that set with the online animated GIF creator to crank out the final product.

Labor intensive, and perhaps there's an automated way to do the same thing in a more robust application like PhotoShop, but all in all not too bad, free, and the result seems adequate.

 

Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

I got to thinking about the Sybervision tape again after watching the recent JF Beaulieu / Reilly McGlashan / Paul Lorenz Collaboration video. They both feature superb skiers making short and longer turns, and I was pondering what was similar and what was different about the skiing separated by 30 years.

 

That ^^^ was my original motivation. I went in with some ideas about what I thought might be going on, but not with an agenda to arrive at a preconceived result. I found a section of the 1985 video that clearly showed the skier's body and skis in a couple of turns, and decided to made a set of grabs that roughly follow this pattern...

 

Image 01   In fall line

Image 02   Bottom half right turn begins

Image 03   Bottom half right turn tightens

Image 04   Release begins

Image 05   Transition-Neutral

Image 06   Top half left turn begins

Image 07   In fall line

Image 08   Bottom half left turn begins

Image 09   Bottom half left turn tightens

Image 10   Release begins

Image 11   Transition-Neutral

Image 12   Top half right turn begins

 

Then I searched for a section of the 2015 video that would give me a couple of turns from roughly the same viewpoint, and repeated the process to grab frames for another image set.

 

My preconceived ideas were that with the 1985 skier the focus was on working the front of the ski, both to steer it around and pressure it after transition, whereas 2015 seemed more to flatten at transition and then tip to edge, working more of the whole ski. It would be interesting to have a side view of the same turns for both, but unfortunately don't have that available to compare.

 

From the front view using the image sets and especially the combined animated GIF the conclusion I draw is that the skiing is remarkably similar, the biggest differences being that the 1985 skier works in a more pronounced manner from outside ski to outside ski, and does not get and stay as low as the 2015 skier.

 

Otherwise to my eye they both transition to the new turn by flexing/relaxing the old outside ski, and allowing pressure to smoothly build on the new outside ski. 1985 doesn't step heavy onto the new outside ski, and there is no pronounced up (body) move. 2015 works hard to keep both skis on the snow at all times with a continuously low stance and heavy flexing/retraction, but there is still a pressure move from outside ski to outside ski.

 

How do you see things?

 

That's why (bolded above) I'd like to see the two skiers from the side.  This was my hunch too.  

They do look remarkably similar from the front.

post #47 of 52
 
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

JC - Great presentation for movement analysis comparison. Very well lined up on a variety of levels.

 

Thanks, and glad you and LF find it /interesting useful - hopefully others as well.

 

Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

I think that this perspective does support a similarity in gross motor skill and movements for skiing. That said, it is the devil in the details of fine motor skills that we do not see as clearly and are the ones, in my opinion, that are primarily responsible for the difference in ski performance between the two videos.

 

Curious, when you say the difference in ski performance do you mean the the quality/level of skiing, or the style/technique?

 
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

 

In an attempt to avoid similar conundrums of comparisson, a question I have for you would be: Which skier do you think would adapt more quickly to the other's ski and why?

 

I couldn't say, but suspect it would depend more on the individual's general openness and ability to embrace and effect change than which way he'd be moving.

 
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

>> My preconceived ideas were that with the 1985 skier the focus was on working the front of the ski

 

That's why (bolded above) I'd like to see the two skiers from the side.  This was my hunch too.  

They do look remarkably similar from the front.

 

I was watching the SyberVision tape again today, and there are some side views of some of the skiing, but other than the more pronounced lifting of the old outside ski I'm not seeing anything definitive fore-aft with the new outside ski. Then again closer examination might reveal more. If I can find similar 2015 side view vid I'll see if I can make another comparison animated GIF and put it up for review.

 

Don't recall if this was laid out earlier in the thread but the SyberVision video starts and ends with several minutes of Killy freeskiing, then there are several minute sections in between for...

 

(1) short radius turns on moderate terrain

(2) medium radius turns on moderate terrain

(3) short radius turns on steep terrain

(4) medium radius turns on steep terrain

(5) moguls

(6) powder

 

Not sure what skis the 1985 guys are on, but guessing they are something in the 200CM length and 85-65-75 dimensions (or thereabouts) range - definitely before the shaped ski revolution. They are just masterful with everything they ski in the video - very fast and silky smooth! The powder style is old school - more frequent, rhythmic turns - but still great. Even though things have undeniably changed it all still looks pretty damn good (and relevant) to me.

 

Whole thing filmed at Beaver Creek, and co-produced with Vail Associates (predecessor of Vail Resorts). At time of publication SyberVision Skiing was "the official downhill skiing training program for the world-renowned Vail/Beaver Creek ski school", which I guess explains why instructors had to sit in a tent and watch it!   ;-)

post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

Curious, when you say the difference in ski performance do you mean the the quality/level of skiing, or the style/technique?

 

I mean that the ski is much more engaged, bent, and reacting with more impulsivity. I can't see them but I know the 2015 guy is leaving crisp, clean tracks. He skis clean as a whistle!

 

I couldn't say, but suspect it would depend more on the individual's general openness and ability to embrace and effect change than which way he'd be moving.

 

I'm asking what would your theoretical conclusion be if all else were the same. You can't have conceptual comparisons if you are going to throw in personality traits. 

 

post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

Nice break down of frames with the last one including all. A nice example of an effective teaching tool. 

Just to be clear, I was considering this conversation in the context of recreational skiing and reference 165 sl skis because it seems to be the most popular model type for turn demos of the recreational instruction pros. 

The major changes in ski design centered around sidecut occurred for me mid-ski "career" in my early 20's and have a lot of skiing background (miles) in both genres. It is my feeling that the differences in the ideal ski technique of 1985 vs today's goes beyond the aesthetics of a superficial nature. For those that believe ski technique or, rather, kinetic chain, originates from the ground up, the change in the  ski "on the ground" represents the change in technique from the ground up. It is possible that my opinion on your theoretical proposition stems from my own experiences that may not be representative of the norm.

As an old fart who fully appreciates the changes the newest skis represent compared to the skis I first used from the 1940s into the 1970s, the reduction in effort required to make the same kinds of movements has helped keep me on the slopes at age 75. I believe your kinetic chain starting from the ground up is accurate. However, I recall discussions of beginning the turn with the tips and completing it with the tails from the pre-shaped era. It's just easier to do today with the current equipment.
post #50 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

. At time of publication SyberVision Skiing was "the official downhill skiing training program for the world-renowned Vail/Beaver Creek ski school", which I guess explains why instructors had to sit in a tent and watch it!   ;-)

I attended several PSIA events where view/ski programs were used. We did not "sit in a tent", but we did stand in one, allowing us to use the muscles while watching, which was the REAL goal, I'd say. It felt effective to me after getting back on skis outside the tent and going downhill.
post #51 of 52

Kneale, thx for sharing your experience  - interesting that you personally got something out of it. Do you recall if there was a general consensus among the instructors about that?

 

Also curious, how long did SyberVision stick around the Vail world? A single season, or longer?

 

Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 
In an attempt to avoid similar conundrums of comparisson, a question I have for you would be: Which skier do you think would adapt more quickly to the other's ski and why? 

 

Those experts from both 1985 and 2015 clearly have fantastic balance, timing, and feel for how their skis interact with the snow - I would like to think each could suss out and implement whatever changes of technique might be needed to effectively use the other's equipment. Who would do so more quickly, I couldn't say.

 

The SyberVision stuff doesn't get into trying to tell you how to ski, it provides a visual model which shows you how to ski. Because the basic movements are so similar it seems Sybervision could actually still be beneficial.

post #52 of 52
This study is flawed unless both skiers are at the top of the same national program.
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