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New Junior Race Ski Prep - Is this overkill? - Page 2

post #31 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Edges absolutley. Wax, does not matter, as long as you don't F it up and put the totally wrong wax for the conditions!

Again. too slippery a ski is detrimental to technique finishing as is too much speed.

Fixed it.

I have never thought my skis were too slippery. I've never wished for a slower ski.  I have taken measures to slow down when too much speed would be detrimental to finishing.

Points have been made in this thread about setting expectation levels with younger racers. Parent's should be gauging their child's interest and ability. Too often the racers are on the hill because their parents put them their, but the racer would rather be elsewhere. Don't force it. Nurture it.

It has also been suggested that learning tuning skills at a younger age will help a racer develop. Racing isn't just about winning. For kids it is an opportunity to take responsibility, learn and actually reap the rewards of the efforts. It is a great life lesson. Racers and former racers have initiative, drive, goals and the knowledge that hard work and discipline pays off. Racers and former racers are great employees and leaders.

OP, don't worry so much about the number of coats of wax, etc., but use the time you spend on your kid's skis to engage your little racers in taking responsibility for equipment, the benefits of preparation and finding out what turns them on. Not necessarilly overtly, but so they understand the entire process of racing isn't just training and racing gates. And you understand what it is that they want to achieve.

Development is a continuous process. Success is measured in things besides ribbons, pins and trophies.

MR
post #32 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

When my older boy was a 2nd year J3 the kid who won most if not all the local  races that year used Dominator All Temperature Race Zoom! (Actually the head Coaches son!)

All the dad's with thermometers and mixng concoctions got creamed!

I am not saying not to tune and wax your skis at all, but o some basic hot scraping and waxing to start. I like to use a base coat of Dominator Base renew , either Graphite for black bases or light purple for clear. and I also hot scrape with it. Make sure the bases are flat and the edge bevels are correct and sharp. and  I think the coaches advice was right on point about waxing befopre training day!

We waxed everynight for speed events but GS & SL, naw!

Good clarification, good advice, and this is pretty much what I thought you really meant.  No disagreement about the OP going much further than necessary, but I wouldn't want anyone to get the mistaken impression that it's a good idea to ignore waxing.

The thing that I always keep in mind is that the K1 age group (11-12) is where kids are starting to learn to race.  They are still learning to ski too, but the race focus is becoming more important.  This means they need to start learning about their equipment, which includes tuning and waxing. 

Even if the tuning & waxing didn't make much difference to their results at 11 or 12, they are learning about something that will matter more going forward, at K2 (13-14) and definitely at the J/FIS level (15+).  Much better to start learning about it when it doesn't matter as much, so that when the knowledge and experience are really needed, there is a strong base to build on.
post #33 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post


I have never thought my skis were too slippery. I've never wished for a slower ski.  I have taken measures to slow down when too much speed would be detrimental to finishing.

 

I'm with MR on this one.  Sometimes speed control is necessary, for racers at any level, and I prefer to coach speed control through technique and tactics than through equipment throttling.
post #34 of 93
Saying fast skis hurt speed is sort of like saying kids should stay out of suits.  Too sudden a change can throw off timing, but that's a training issue.

I note again the o.p. is asking about base prep, i.e. developing fast bases, not about wax choice. 
post #35 of 93

Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

Saying fast skis hurt speed is sort of like saying kids should stay out of suits.  

Quote: This is where you have it wrong, too fast a ski does not hurt speed. too fast a ski hurts time!!!! Particularly if you must ski defensively to stay in the course  (A couple of posters mentioned "Speed Control") which I equate to defensive skiing.

Having your skis grippy and controllable can pay dividends in spades!


Do you remember the race where Bode Miller intentionally skidded the top of every other turn and won the race? Was he moving the fastest or was his speed slower but he skied a better line and finished in less time because he covered less ground? (skied a shorter distance)

So,  you see the fastest speed does not always win. It is about line and finishing.






 

Edited by Atomicman - 8/25/09 at 5:32pm
post #36 of 93
Thread Starter 
Base Prep

My original question was about base prep :  how much waxing is required to prep a pair of new junior skis?  (my kids are using Dynastar 'Team Course/Team Omeglass and Volkl Racetiger GS/SL skis)? 

If my wax program is overkill, then what is the minimum amount of prep work required for junior race skis?  Just a quick hot scrape or more????  I'd rather put the extra effort in now when I have spare time because once the race season starts, things get crazy and I'm waxing multiple pairs of skis on an on going basis (hey my skis need waxing too!) 

At this time of the year, I don't mind grabbing a cold beer and waxing a pair of skis as part of my pre-season ritual.  It beats sitting around and bitching about the heat.

Race tuning

Can skis be too slippery?  YES!!  I've seen some of the best junior skiers in our club blow out of a race course because Dad started waxing the skis mid season and applied HF race wax the night before the race. Like I said, my kids coaches have repeatedly reminded parents/racers to tune their skis before training day and make sure that the skis are set up the same way on race day as training day.  Race day is not the time to be trying out new edge angles or wax strategies.
post #37 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiNut View Post

Base Prep

My original question was about base prep :  how much waxing is required to prep a pair of new junior skis?  (my kids are using Dynastar 'Team Course/Team Omeglass and Volkl Racetiger GS/SL skis)? 

If my wax program is overkill, then what is the minimum amount of prep work required for junior race skis?  Just a quick hot scrape or more????  I'd rather put the extra effort in now when I have spare time because once the race season starts, things get crazy and I'm waxing multiple pairs of skis on an on going basis (hey my skis need waxing too!) 

At this time of the year, I don't mind grabbing a cold beer and waxing a pair of skis as part of my pre-season ritual.  It beats sitting around and bitching about the heat.

Race tuning

Can skis be too slippery?  YES!!  I've seen some of the best junior skiers in our club blow out of a race course because Dad started waxing the skis mid season and applied HF race wax the night before the race. Like I said, my kids coaches have repeatedly reminded parents/racers to tune their skis before training day and make sure that the skis are set up the same way on race day as training day.  Race day is not the time to be trying out new edge angles or wax strategies.
 

I'd say at most for base prep would be to hot scrape once and iron in some CH7 (don't scrape). I'd put the iron back on the CH7 a few times once its on there to make sure its in there good. Just scrape at the beginning of the season and you should be good to go. If you have a hotbox, a cycle with CH7 wouldn't hurt ether.
post #38 of 93
Case closed?
post #39 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Case closed?

It's up to the OP lol
post #40 of 93
Quote
SkiNut:  Race day is not the time to be trying out new edge angles or wax strategies.




 

The above is true. 

I'm sure lots of kids would be faster with "grippy" bases, lol.  Some of the worst advice I've seen on here for a while.
post #41 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiNut View Post

Base Prep

My original question was about base prep :  how much waxing is required to prep a pair of new junior skis?  (my kids are using Dynastar 'Team Course/Team Omeglass and Volkl Racetiger GS/SL skis)? 

Race tuning

Can skis be too slippery?  YES!!  I've seen some of the best junior skiers in our club blow out of a race course because Dad started waxing the skis mid season and applied HF race wax the night before the race. Like I said, my kids coaches have repeatedly reminded parents/racers to tune their skis before training day and make sure that the skis are set up the same way on race day as training day.  Race day is not the time to be trying out new edge angles or wax strategies.





 

Base Prep:

My suggestion for new skis is three cleaning passes with a soft or universal wax, and then a final wax coat for expected conditions.  If you're waxing now, a universal wax will be fine, your choice if you want to scrape it off & rewax with something else for the first day on snow.  This wax will usually hold up for two or three days of training, but if you have the time, repeat three cleaning passes & one final wax coat after the first day on snow with the new skis.  After that, one cleaning pass and one finish wax every two or three days on snow.  If you've got time to wax more frequently, go for it.  If you get busy and have to go a few more days before rewaxing, not a huge problem.

Race Tuning:

True statement, but the problem you've identified is not that the ski is too slippery, it's a more general problem of not training the way you'll be racing.

Similar poor results occur if kids only put their speed suits on for the race, for example.  The answer is not to leave the speed suit off, the answer is to train with it on as well.  Gate training is another example:  if kids have only trained basic corridors on smooth pitches they'll be facing a big challenge on race day with rhythm changes, contours and combinations. 

Back to the context of this thread, get your kid's skis waxed nicely for training (as it sounds like you're doing) so the coach works out any problems during training, and then they can handle a fast ski in a race as well.
post #42 of 93
MM is right on the mark.

MR
post #43 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

MM is right on the mark IMHO

MR
Fixed it for ya!
post #44 of 93
Over kill.

Here's a story from Okemo a few years back as I remember most of it as it was told to me. I do remember this boy was a friend of a buddy's son.

One of the top JIV boy's damaged his race skis after the first run. All he had was his old rock skis. He still won the second race. I can remember his first name was Will, can't think of his last name.

At this age it's more about skills them the wax and base prep.
post #45 of 93
You dudes can find lots of anecdotes where a fast kid is fast period -- you can put a fast kid on 1980s skis and they'll still be fast and also learn to drift.  The fast kid in the above post, if you put him up against equally good kids of the same age but put him on "grippy" bases and puffy overalls and a down jacket -- to keep him from the dreaded "slippery" effect -- will lose.   By a lot. 

Remember, training skis for kids are generally faster than race skis.  Fast bases matter.   
post #46 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity View Post

At this age it's more about skills them the wax and base prep.
 

A couple of exceptions that I can think of... Flat course (esply in a J4/5 GS) and extreme snow temps. Having the right wax would matter quite a bit then. Then again, those are the exceptions.
post #47 of 93
May be what I'm trying to say is, don't waste a lot of time waxing. Yes it's important but skills are a bigger part, at this stage.

Teach them how to carry speed, look ahead, plan where to slow for the next gate. Teach them to feel the snow, become one with it.

IMO free skiing is as important as training.
post #48 of 93
MC, No arguments from me here.
post #49 of 93
No arguments from this corner either on that.  

Growing a well-rounded athlete who also doesn't burn out is definitely first.  In that sense resort and program choice is also much more important than any tuning/waxing issues early on.  As are things like good boot fit and flex.  People make all sorts of different choices in dealing with the steep curve presented by expense/time/performance issues and when and how important you rate ski prep is just one entry on the list.
post #50 of 93
There was a kid .... fast as blazes .... and in a "Bode like" wild fashion, he seemed to be always about to go down hard.  Till his weight got him ..... he was naturally small as was his whole family, he was always on the podium.

I asked his dad about the tune and I thought he was BS'ing me when he said they dropped them off at the shop at the start of the season.  After that ... no wax and no tunes.  This had to be BS right?

Took a look at his skis once and they were a train wreck.  No wax, gouged, no edges .... nothin, nadda, zilch,

Made me realize that technique/balance & balls are 98% of the game.  Wax and stuff ... ???
post #51 of 93
I would not encourage that kind of preparation for my racers. A tuned and maintained ski is a predictable ski. Regardless of talent, knowing that your ski will perform reliably is essential.

The OPs original regimen may be over the top, but I suspect with that kind of concern by a coach/parent, that the racer's skis would be maintained in a fashion that could be relied on while training and racing. Every element of a racer's preparation from dryland, to on snow and equipment needs to be top notch, all the time.

I won't argue that the kid in the vignette was held back by his 'train wreck' skis, but all racers will benefit from a solid, reliable platform including well maintained skis.

What is going to happen to that kid when he gets a sponsor and has pro tuned skis to work with every day!? I'll bet going from 'train wreck' to 'sweet tune' is going to affect his style and require him to adjust. My guess is he'll probably wish he had the 'sweet tune' all along.

MR
post #52 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

I would not encourage that kind of preparation for my racers. A tuned and maintained ski is a predictable ski. Regardless of talent, knowing that your ski will perform reliably is essential.

The OPs original regimen may be over the top, but I suspect with that kind of concern by a coach/parent, that the racer's skis would be maintained in a fashion that could be relied on while training and racing. Every element of a racer's preparation from dryland, to on snow and equipment needs to be top notch, all the time.

I won't argue that the kid in the vignette was held back by his 'train wreck' skis, but all racers will benefit from a solid, reliable platform including well maintained skis.

What is going to happen to that kid when he gets a sponsor and has pro tuned skis to work with every day!? I'll bet going from 'train wreck' to 'sweet tune' is going to affect his style and require him to adjust. My guess is he'll probably wish he had the 'sweet tune' all along.

MR

That kind of "Concern" by a coach or parent can subtly put a lot of underlying pressure on a racer. Particularly, a 11 & 13 YO.

If still racing as a J1 that is different story.

But don't ya think the kid is thinking, OMG, my dad put so much time and effort into my skis and I am not skiing up to the standard expected of me!   It is a fragile balance of encouragement and subliminal pressure!
post #53 of 93
The converse scenario is the kid loses by .1 or .5 seconds and blames the dad for not helping him have fast skis.

It is a delicate balance and only the parent and kid can figure that one out.

The racer has to feel that he has a chance, he needs encouragement, and he needs realistic goals and expectations.

I almost never got a chance to tune skis, go to races or experience ski racing in general with my parents. They were too busy with the inn that they owned and operated. I knew they were proud of my results and they supported me by providing me with the latest and greatest equipment and encouragement. My mom actually had to DQ me at a race; she was only at the race because I left my boots behind and she drove 3 hours to get them to me in time to DQ me. My dad, on the other hand, only saw me race DH once and that was when I won the Jr. Nat. Championships. I knew that they would support me win or lose and that if I tried my best, I wouldn't disappoint them either way.

Parents need to nurture their racer, not push them beyond what is reasonable. They need to support them financially and emotionally and if they can, technically by helping them maintain their equipment. I say help, because no racer should rely solely on someone else to get their equipment into shape, unless they are sponsored with paid techs to cater to them. Racers should know what it takes to fix a base, remove a burr, etc. They should participate in as much of the effort it takes to responsibly pursue ski racing as a sport.

That isn't to say a J4 should learn to trim his sidewalls or bevel an edge. But they should participate in the maintenance at whatever level they can and learn how to maintain their equipment as they are able. I think that for a parent this would be an opportunity to relate with their child and to foster the character that creates a great person in life as well as a great ski racer.

Responsibility, perseverance, knowledge, interest, desire, motivation in addition to ability are what make a great ski racer. Ski racing can be an opportunity to rely on others, to rely on oneself and to learn how to do both with grace and pride.

MR
post #54 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

The converse scenario is the kid loses by .1 or .5 seconds and blames the dad for not helping him have fast skis.

It is a delicate balance and only the parent and kid can figure that one out..
 


Thumbs up.

I'd also note that kids who are serious and talented about something generally appreciate nice gear, rather than view it as a burden.  You can prep the bases to be fast before they see snow, or you can let the kid ski well-prepped and maintained skis into being fast, but the kid will like the bases.

 


 

post #55 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

The converse scenario is the kid loses by .1 or .5 seconds and blames the dad for not helping him have fast skis.

It is a delicate balance and only the parent and kid can figure that one out.

The racer has to feel that he has a chance, he needs encouragement, and he needs realistic goals and expectations.

I almost never got a chance to tune skis, go to races or experience ski racing in general with my parents. They were too busy with the inn that they owned and operated. I knew they were proud of my results and they supported me by providing me with the latest and greatest equipment and encouragement. My mom actually had to DQ me at a race; she was only at the race because I left my boots behind and she drove 3 hours to get them to me in time to DQ me. My dad, on the other hand, only saw me race DH once and that was when I won the Jr. Nat. Championships. I knew that they would support me win or lose and that if I tried my best, I wouldn't disappoint them either way.

Parents need to nurture their racer, not push them beyond what is reasonable. They need to support them financially and emotionally and if they can, technically by helping them maintain their equipment. I say help, because no racer should rely solely on someone else to get their equipment into shape, unless they are sponsored with paid techs to cater to them. Racers should know what it takes to fix a base, remove a burr, etc. They should participate in as much of the effort it takes to responsibly pursue ski racing as a sport.

That isn't to say a J4 should learn to trim his sidewalls or bevel an edge. But they should participate in the maintenance at whatever level they can and learn how to maintain their equipment as they are able. I think that for a parent this would be an opportunity to relate with their child and to foster the character that creates a great person in life as well as a great ski racer.

Responsibility, perseverance, knowledge, interest, desire, motivation in addition to ability are what make a great ski racer. Ski racing can be an opportunity to rely on others, to rely on oneself and to learn how to do both with grace and pride.

MR


Agreed! Except that no kid is going to lose by .5 or .1 solely because of wax!

All I was sayng is watching Dad put 89 coats of wax on your skis might be a bit much!

There is no reason whatsoever that an 11 YO & a 13 YO should not be dealing with wax themselves.

I was intimately and encouraginglyy involved with my kids' ski racing. We had a ball. From the equipment to all the car time to the horrendous weather and the victories and defeats! I wouldn't trade those days for anything. In fact my older boy & I are training and racing masters together!

But they waxed their own boards (if we waxed 'em) once they were J4's! I did the edges!
post #56 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post





Agreed! Except that no kid is going to lose by .5 or .1 solely because of wax!

 

1.  You're completely wrong on that.

2.  The o.p. was asking about base prep, not waxing for conditions.  Pretty basic.
post #57 of 93
Ski racing is so complex!

Which is why it is such a good opportunity to prepare for life.

AM, I agree on the waxing. I think 88 coats would be enough.

Seriously, it seems like we agree that parents should work with (not for) their racer. And they definitely should not live through their racer. Be proud, be supportive, be realistic.

Best of luck to you and your son this winter. Do you come to any RMM speed events in CO?

MR
post #58 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post




1.  You're completely wrong on that.

2.  The o.p. was asking about base prep, not waxing for conditions.  Pretty basic.
 

I'm wrong cuz i don't agree with you! OK.

Splitting hairs. it does not matter. 
post #59 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Ski racing is so complex!

Which is why it is such a good opportunity to prepare for life.

AM, I agree on the waxing. I think 88 coats would be enough.

Seriously, it seems like we agree that parents should work with (not for) their racer. And they definitely should not live through their racer. Be proud, be supportive, be realistic.

Best of luck to you and your son this winter. Do you come to any RMM speed events in CO?

MR

 
He was an excellent downhiller. But I like slalom!  I get scared going DH fast when there are gates on the hill

The older I get the faster I was!

Probably not traveling that far , but if we come down that way just to ski, I'll let ya know!

AM
post #60 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post




I'm wrong cuz i don't agree with you! OK.

Splitting hairs. it does not matter. 

 


It matters in the real world. 

If people make the mistake of reading say, this thread, and their take-away is that well-maintaind equiment is very important even for juniors, but that it's a balancing act, great.  (E.g. if the o.p. HAD been asking about waxing for conditions, it is true that for many kids due to the way races are conducted overlays often don't make sense even forgetting cost issues.)   If their take-away is that wax doesn't matter ...well, their kid will be slow relative to someone with well-prepared skis.
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