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You can carve a turkey, but can you carve whipped cream? - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Indeed.. People have been making round turns in deep pow for many many years...Nobis is not the first one on his fat skis. Give me a break.
post #32 of 53
dewdman, yes, to be fair I should have said that Jeremy was one of those who really popularised that style. It would be impossible to say whether he was the first. There is little new under the sun in most sports. Of course the example of snowboarders going fast in powder has been there since the days of "Ted Shred" (late 70s?).
post #33 of 53
Martin, Nobis is not even close to the first one. he was in diapers or not even born yet when people were making round turns in powder on old school skis.
post #34 of 53
Quote:
I suppose my definition of a carved turn would be one in which the ski is deflected (bent) and travels along the arc that that deflection descibes with the tail following the tip.
Quote:
A carving ski is tracking forward with very little sideways drift.
Using the definitions above I think good powder skiers have been carving truns for a long time. Just look at the tracks they leave in the snow. Remember the "powder 8" contests. It would seem that the technique and mechanics are somewhat different, but the results seem the same.
post #35 of 53
This thread is a couple of years old now but how come the carve is from the base side of the edge (read metal) and not the edge itself, meaning the sharp edge? When I carve a turkey, ok so I don't do it too often, I don't use the side of the knife. I use the sharpened edge. When scooping, so to speak, whipped cream, or miracle whip as it were, I use the "edge" of the spoon at an angle, which can vary as with the degree of turn, to lift out the good white stuff. I'm not trying to use any bottom edge portion of that spoon at all... How then do I carve with the bases? When tipped I see that the base may be against some snow but this aspect of the discussion is not clear to me.
Please feel free to explain this to me and don't worry about patronizing me. This is an interesting topic that I'm surprised seemed to lose interest a while back but I'm new to Epic.
EJ
post #36 of 53
EJL, did you read the entire thread? The title is just a quip but the body of the thread pretty much explains everything in detail.

In truth, a ski in powder soft snow doesn't "carve" so much as it "surfs" the snow on its bent base. The sidecut makes a difference since base-width directly affects flotation at each point along the length of the ski. Also, the metal edge doesn't really "track" like it does on firm snow unless the skier imparts some very precise rotation (twisting) of the ski as it surfs.

.ma
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJL View Post
This is an interesting topic
...then you might also find these of interest:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=17714
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=57464
post #38 of 53
EJL, this stuff can get a bit complicated. Let me give the KISS version a shot.

Generally, the forces of the turn load the ski such that pressure is carried both on a ski's base and sidewall. The proportions by which the turn forces load the base and sidewall is dependant on where the skiers Center of Mass is located. The more the skier angulates to remain in balance, the more the force line comes at the ski at an angle and loads the sidewall. The more he/she inclinates (full body lean), the more load goes to the base. Make sense?


Martin, you sure are good at digging up those old classic threads.
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
EJL, this stuff can get a bit complicated. Let me give the KISS version a shot.

Generally, the forces of the turn load the ski such that pressure is carried both on a ski's base and sidewall. The proportions by which the turn forces load the base and sidewall is dependant on where the skiers Center of Mass is located. The more the skier angulates to remain in balance, the more the force line comes at the ski at an angle and loads the sidewall. The more he/she inclinates (full body lean), the more load goes to the base. Make sense?
Excellent Rick, it even makes sense to someone as technique terminology challenged as myself.
post #40 of 53
Thanks for your replies. So, are you saying that there is a continuum of snow conditions that ranges from boilerplate, to hard packed to soft packed, to... powder and as a result there should be a difference in how we "carve" in effect? The difference being carving on firm snow to surfing on powder and that carving is not possible on powder? If I use the edge to in effect 'slice' into (angle, or incline, or bank [a discussion of these terms I noticed elsewhere and sometimes seem to be considered analogous and sometimes not]) the snow, then I use the base to sustain the force into the snow and sustain the carve.(?)
It was somewhere I read that the turn is from the ankle/shin or from the shoulders, either on this thread or elsewhere, but I initiate my turns by bringing my hip inside the turn. It seems bio- mechanically sound to exert force to the ski this way.
E.J.
post #41 of 53
The last thought you had EJL was a good one. When set up anatomically correct, the fastest move to get on edge would be to drop the hip inside the turn. One may say the ankle is the fastest but in what sport would an athlete use his fine muscles first and then use his major muscles. In pitching do you flick the wrist before the body mass moves. Does the batter start swinging the bat before his body mass generates the initial force, NO the major muscles initiate the force and you fine tune with the small (fine) muscles. The same in skiing, You use the major muscles (the body core,the hips) to initiate the turn then fine tune the turn with the ankles, if need be.
post #42 of 53
RAY!!
How big are the hills in NJ? I totally agree with you! I wonder why so few skiers have this mindset? In fact I use the throwing/pitching analogy often myself. I don't throw a ball by first using my fingers or wrist. I'll use my whole body but particularly the shoulder then refine the action with the elbow to the wrist and finally the ball is let go with the finest coordination we can muster by rolling it off the fingers. Why then do we often hear our cohorts state we initiate our turns by pressing down on the big toe or rolling in at the ankles. I'm seeking a gross motor movement using the largest [and most powerful] muscles in the body, my hips and butt and I refine the turn by more subtle movements with a tweak at the knew and perhaps the most refined touch at the foot. Force=mass x acceleration. Thinking Newtonian here but I'm going for the large mass to generate strong force through the turn. Dropping my hip inside gets the ski on edge and using the entire side-cut of the ski allows for a nice pure arc. I'm trying NOT to steer the turn at the shoulder. Of course this presumes proper fit of the boots but that extends the conversation.
EJ
post #43 of 53
I'm wondering how you initiate a carved turn from the hips? What do you do to get them moving?
post #44 of 53
Hi Max,
It is easy to demonstrate and I'll try to articulate. Feet are apart, say shoulder width. If I move my hips one way or the other with a counter rotational aspect the feet will naturally go on edge. Sustain that simple initial movement, that is commit to it, and your carves will be parallel until you decide to quit that turn and move the hips to the other side to arc in the other direction which will cause the skis to transition to the other set of edges.

If you drop into the turn more dramatically, it is as if you are sitting down on the inside of the turn. The leg that is going to what I'm going to call the "dynamic" ski, the one on the longer arc [note I'm not saying up hill/down hill] will be straight or straighter. This allows for huge loads of energy to be sustained through your skeletal system. If your dynamic leg is bent you will be forced to sustain that position through muscular strength but you cannot sustain the g-load to the level you can if you let your skeleton do the work. Then you can easily use your muscles for refining the turn dependent upon bumps you might cross or obstacles such as skidding skiers who cut you off!

If you are aligned properly your arcs should be pure railroad track carves and if you are skiing strong, I mean with the alignment [not how strong you are] you should be able to sustain your turn well across the fall line and even get it to go up the hill if you like, depending on the terrain. Alignment and counter rotational turns at the hip make for a great day of skiing!
E.J.
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'm wondering how you initiate a carved turn from the hips? What do you do to get them moving?
Angulate at the hip.
post #46 of 53
On steeper sloops like Ruthies or Aztec at ASPEN completing the turn by going uphill will slow you down enough so that you can ski the whole hill without stopping. Another thought, how much edge can you get by moving the ankles inside a turn as oppossed to dropping the hip inside the turn. Oh nice going Ghost.
post #47 of 53
I understand that the hips drop into the turn. But how do you move the hips from one side to the other? I'm not clear on how counter rotation would do that?? More detail needed to understand what you are suggesting.
post #48 of 53
OK!
Lets start in your living room. Stand up. My guess is that your legs are straight. Now widen them about 2 feet apart. Put your hands on your hips.

Now, to pick one direction, turn to the right about 40 degrees. As you are doing so, bring your left hip/glut to the left and your feet should become tilted to the left side of each foot. As you do so your right leg will tilt over with the leg still straight BUT the left leg will bend at the knee. [Its as if the left leg is trying to sit down onto a chair!] So it isn't just a rotation at the hips with the feet flat but with the feet tilting. The dynamic of the "counter-rotation" here is that you are facing what I've been calling the dynamic [or what some call the outside] ski. So forget the notion of facing down the hill. That is one of the most absurd teaching edicts out there. Once the feel, and it should be kind of sexy, of the hips moving from side to side comes into play the skis will carve nicely. Again, I mentioned that alignment is key. If your foot does not have a properly fitting footbed, if the shaft angle of your boot is forward forcing your knee to bend, your heel is not adequately elevated to get you into an athletic position and if your boots are over edged [a.k.a canting], as most boots are on most feet, then some of this might not happen very effectively. But in your living room in your shoes or socks or bare feet this action should be easy to master. I hate to say it but sometimes your $700 boot gets in the way and needs to be corrected. Actually, "sometimes" is actually, "USUALLY!"
Thanks for the question.
Raycantu seems to be on the same page. Perhaps he can articulate this rudimentary action better than I or enhance it. I've never learned this in classes I've taken as a student nor in the clinics I've taken as an instructor by the way. It maximizes the effectiveness of the shape skis for sure!
EJ
post #49 of 53
Follow up to your question Max. The transition from one side to the other is just a playful motion from side to side. I've observed that most boot fitters when they have customers try on a boot they will ask them to "flex" the boot to see if they can work it. While I might have them do this my goal is to help them get their heel into the pocket. What I'll ask them to do is to roll the boot side to side putting both boots on edge simultaneously. I'll note how they hold their upper body. Most people get this naturally but I think dropping the hips in [in a fashion that is 'sexy' as I mentioned]comes a little more naturally for women. Shake it a bit!!
So the transition from one side to the other is to come across the ski and tilt the boots to the other edges. The upper torso rotates as if facing the dynamic ski. It is not a steering motion as in turning to face the direction that the ski is going. That would be "rotational." One can go upward but when skiing dynamically with some momentum it is across the ski and not upward as we've seen taught even recently.
E.J.
post #50 of 53
EJL, thanks for providing the detail. I do a drill that is similar to what you describe (although it lacks the 'sexy' component) as a method of learning movements that counter act the tendency of the upper body to rotate into the turn. I would agree that it helps with putting the skis on edge. However, I view its a secondary movement used to support the primary movements of the feet and legs.
post #51 of 53
Max...
I see here that you used the terms PRIMARY MOVEMENTS of the feet and legs and this is exactly not what I was referring too! I firmly believe that the movement of the hips across the skis, which is a frontal plane of movement, to be the primary act. As I mentioned, I would use a gross motor action to initiate my athletic movement and refine it with progressively more refined small motor movements. Hips, knees, ankles/feet and finally toes but not the other way around. Again, what sport do you do that you start with a fine motor movement? When you throw a ball the action starts with the shoulder (say you were kneeling down) and the last would be from the wrist and finally the fingers.

I think I could have put my earlier explanation differently if I had said that the across the ski motion [frontal/coronal plane] could be separated from counter rotation which is movement in the horizontal plane. Both are happening! Interestingly, this counter rotation will help sustain the engagement of the bones of the foot generating more power with the levering action of the foot and lower leg [a type 2 lever] sustaining the foot in a supinated position which is stronger [weight bearing] than allowing the foot to go into a "loose" orientation as we see in pronation.

Now, the advantage of the counter rotational movement facilitates angulation of the body instead of inclination which is just the overall tilting of the body a la a metronome... and a "banking" action.

I suppose others are out bike riding and not skiing as I'm sure much of what I write here is inconsistent to their ski thinking. This is new to many but fundamentally sound so I'd like to thank you for engaging in this discussion with me.

On a personal note, I took up the sport as an adult and I will pat myself on the back by saying I'm a pretty good athlete but skiing did not evolve for me because of alignment and teaching issues. When I got properly fit, that is with footbeds that help sustain the supinated position and other dynamics as previously alluded to including shaft angle and canting in particular, my strength on the ski jumped big time. One measure was that my average vertical on a two week ski trip went up 5,000 feet per day from 35 to over 40,000' and that was due to a stronger orientation of my body and not to superior conditioning.

Now to go to bed so I can get up and bike ride early!
Have a great holiday weekend.
E.J.

post #52 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJL View Post
I see here that you used the terms PRIMARY MOVEMENTS of the feet and legs and this is exactly not what I was referring too! I firmly believe that the movement of the hips across the skis, which is a frontal plane of movement, to be the primary act. As I mentioned, I would use a gross motor action to initiate my athletic movement and refine it with progressively more refined small motor movements.
Yes, I understand where you are coming from. My thinking is that starting with the feet is the primary movement and counter acting with the upper body is a supporting movement.
post #53 of 53
Max,
To What primary movement of the feet are you referring? Your feet are helpful as they are in contact with your boots which are in contact with your skis which are in contact with the snow but I think that I'd have to get you on the hill as I don't think you do get the mechanics to which I refer.
EJ
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