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What causes damage to my tips?

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
hey all,

fter buying my first set of skis ive become more aware of the damage im doing to them...

my question is in relation to my technique, what causes me to knock my tips together?
every fwe runs or so ill notice it, but by the end of the day there are always a few new decent grazes on the tips.
im a prety decent skiier and like to ride all terrain so i dont know where its mainly happening.

any insight as to what causes this would be sweet.


cheers in advance. Simon


 

post #2 of 27
Hi Simon. There could be many reasons. You say you are a descent skier and that you ski all terrain but that could mean a lot of different things to all of us. To me it souds like you are not a very skilled skier when it comes to basic technique but you manage to ski all over the mountain because of talent and athletisism. You eather cannot keep your skis close together or you cannot keep them at distance. Somewhere somehow your skis bump into into each other. Skis are wear and tear so you dont have to worrie about that but IMO you should take a few lessons and see if it helps or post a video here of your skiing for MA. BTW, my skis bump into each other but I dont worrie about it too much.
post #3 of 27
If you're skiing bumps with a narrow stance (which is a good thing for bumps), chances are you're going to hit your tips together now & then, especially if you've got a ski with a wide shovel.
post #4 of 27
In my experience, it's caused by my outside ski deflecting up into the edge of my inside ski. It happens to me in crud and other uneven snow the most, not really on groomed or in powder. For me, it's mainly caused by too narrow of a stance for how I'm trying to ski. I learned old school technique, and am still working on widening my stance and therefore improving my carving.
post #5 of 27
I would venture a guess that your tips are colliding because you are doing a lot of turning, but not a lot of tipping. 
post #6 of 27
Tips clicking is different from tips crossing but the cause is essentially the same. The skis are obviously taking independent paths that intersect at some point. Usually this point is somewhere in the transition between turns. A closer look will reveal that the skis are being released at slightly different times. Keep the inside ski working until you release the outside ski and their paths will remain more parallel through the transition. I find it easier to think about this when I define the role of each leg.
  • The outside leg's primary role is to support the body. Some systems label this as the stance leg because it is the weight bearing leg /ski.
  • The inside leg's primary role is to define the shape and size of the turn by either bending the leg, or steering the inside ski. It's secondary role is to aid balance by acting like an outrigger. This is where things break down for lower level skiers. They try to start the next turn with this leg /ski before releasing the outside ski that is still finishing the old turn.


When we start the next turn by releasing the outside ski and letting the old inside ski follow that lead, all of this goes away. Of course there are a few circumstances where a wedge entry is desirable. Usually it's when you need to change your line (make it tighter), or when you are late releasing the outside ski (a race tactic). If you are free skiing you might see this in the trees, or occasionally in the moguls but for the vast majority of your turns you want to avoid sequential releases and the subsequent wedge turn entry it causes.

That being said, I feel a side note about wedge turns and how the skis release during that type of turn is important. Let's start by describing the maneuver down at the skis. The skis remain on their inside edges but the edges may not be engaged enough for the skis to slice through the snow. A technique book from 1947 describes this as spreading butter on toast. The knife (ski) moves sideways across the bread (snow). Steering the skis through a skidded arc tends to be the way we define the size and shape of these turns. Interesting enough we still need to release the outside ski to start the next turn. A quick exercise points this out quite vividly. Do a wedge turn and release the inside ski. The old turn continues without much change. Now try releasing the outside ski. A new turn begins immediately.
 
So these two ideas are what I would recommend, keep the inside ski working through the end of the turn, and focus on starting the next turn by releasing the outside ski first. I think you will find the tips colliding will go away...
post #7 of 27
I vote for the possibility of being a bit back seat in the fore/aft area.  The tips tend to flop around and bang each other quite a bit when skiing too much on the tails.  Try to be sure that you are placing pressure on the tongues of your boots more often than not.  Also, be sure reach out front a bit when planting the pole.  That should keep your fore aft balance where it needs to be to the tips down on the snow at all times.
post #8 of 27

Simon,

I agree with JASP.  At times we all hurry the transition, and start turning the new outside ski while the old outside ski is still somewhat engaged in the old turn.  Onixjl has the right idea, tip the skis off edge and then on the new edges in the transition before turning them.  Mogulmuncher is also right about bump skiing and how the tips are close and can hit easily.  I always think (when skiing bumps) of moving the inside ski first.

 

RW

post #9 of 27
An aft stance makes it harder to release the ski but in reality it doesn't preclude a wedge. Watch the top SL racers and you will see them flex to the point that their femurs are parallel to the slope without the ski tips converging. Try getting that low without being aft. It's actually a key ingredient in reaching slalom turns. Granted racers are on FIS legal skis that do not have anywhere near the sidecut of most recreational skis but if they can release a turn that far aft without making the skis converge, another cause must be involved. This is why I contend that it is the sequential release that is the real culprit here. If both skis are being simultaneously turned across the hill until the outside ski is released, the wedge simply will not happen.
post #10 of 27
jasp,

RW
post #11 of 27


It's just one moment in time but this picture should show what i'm talking about. The inside leg usage keeps that inside ski working through the end of the turn. Also notice the flex in the legs and the aft position of the hips and torso...
post #12 of 27
"what causes damage to my tips?"

well from ski instructor POV.....if my students don't have fun.

8-)

-nerd
post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post



It's just one moment in time but this picture should show what i'm talking about. The inside leg usage keeps that inside ski working through the end of the turn. Also notice the flex in the legs and the aft position of the hips and torso...

Shoulders over the knees and shins pressing the tongue of the boots
post #14 of 27


Here are two more skiers moving through the transition with an aft stance. Notice in the second montage how Bode does a sequential release (frames one and two) and the skis converge as a result. By the third frame the skis are parallel. This occurs because he is actively using his inside leg to tighten the inside ski's path to keep it out of the way of the outside ski.

In recreational skiing we usually won't see the big range of fore / aft motion the top racers can use but a sequential release will produce exactly the same outcome. We're talking trajectories and timing here. Much like the analogy of two plane flying in a close formation, if the outside one turns first you get a collision, if the inside one turns first it's path never intersects the outside plane's path.
post #15 of 27

Many mental cues have been suggested over the years that can help a skier perfect a simultaneous release but all of them depend on the outside ski being released before the next turn can begin. Focus on doing that and your ski tips will stop hitting each other...

post #16 of 27
Quote:
....Notice in the second montage how Bode does a sequential release (frames one and two) and the skis converge as a result. By the third frame the skis are parallel....
 

Link to wrong montage?  Miller's release is completed in the frame prior to the beginning of the 2nd montage (BC 2006 GS, run 1).  There is no release in this short montage.
post #17 of 27
SE, I'd say we are seeing the very end of that release but since I do not have the earlier frames I cannot post them here. Perhaps it would be easier to use a different montage. Notice the very sequential release in frames three and four, and the slightly sequential release in frames eleven and twelve. The two different releases produce remarkably different results.





Now compare that to Ligety, who does a very simultaneous release move.
post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 
wow thanks a lot for all the imput, sorry i havnt replyed untill now ive been out on the slopes! :D

i took some time to get a lesson and the instructor helped me with the problem, saying the same stuff as you guys.
we found it was mainly a mogul n crud thing, but yes theres a lot i need to work on im no pro haha.

my skis dont cross, its a knocking thing, we spent a bit of time working on releasing the skis simultaniously, i think thats an issue i need to work on still and as well as everything you guys have said. cant get up again for a few weeks, but ill let you know more if its all helped.

thanks a lot folks, the input is greatly appreciated, gives me stuff to think about when im bored :D
post #19 of 27
Simon, It sounds like you are on the right track, so instead of giving you more ideas to play with, I would suggest asking that coach to help you explore a couple different ways to refine the timing of your releases. For some it's all about a trigger in the outside leg / foot. For others it's all about getting the hips moving across the skis, or the skis moving underneath the torso. No one cue works best for everyone, so play with several before making a decision about which works best for you...
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post




Shoulders over the knees and shins pressing the tongue of the boots
 
How can there be shin pressure if skis are in the air? There is nothing to press against. If skis are on snow you can press against the snow but since they are in the air this is not possible. It would also be difficult to pressure the shins since your CoM is so far aft. The only way of pressuring the shins would be flexing the ancles but considering all other forces involved we are talking about a very subtle pressure. Also, we cannot se if shoulders are over the knees due to the camera angle but my bet is that they are not. Check out the side view of the candian skier in the first photo montage in one of the postings above for a proper side view of skier from the side during flexing through transition. Depending on the length of his upper body and legs offcourse but if you push your chair back and bend over and tie your shoelaces and watch where your shoulders are you can see that you need to fold over quite a bit more than the skier in the photo if you want your shoulders to be over your knees. The main reason for this is that your tights are horisontal.
post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

SE, I'd say we are seeing the very end of that release but since I do not have the earlier frames I cannot post them here. Perhaps it would be easier to use a different montage. Notice the very sequential release in frames three and four, and the slightly sequential release in frames eleven and twelve. The two different releases produce remarkably different results.





Now compare that to Ligety, who does a very simultaneous release move.


 
I think you define "relese" quite differently to what Im used to. I see the relese being made in frames 2-3 and 9-10 of bode. The relese if followed by flexing of the old outside ski.
post #22 of 27
The bottom line here is the skis converge when one (or both) skis are on their inside edges and they diverge when one (or both) skis are on their outside edges. Corresponding edge usage and a simultaneous release of both skis minimizes this like you see in the montage of Ligety. In the case of Miller and Cochran both are very capable of doing a simultaneous release but chose to do sequential releases in the montages I posted. Why? Well tactically speaking it was to set themself up for the next turn, so it should be understood that at times it is an effective movement. However to return to the original question for a moment turning the new outside ski first will put the skis on a collision course. If you don't want that to happen, you need to either strongly turn the new inside ski before they collide, or turn the new inside ski earlier. For most recreational skiers turning the inside ski first, or at the same time as the outside ski is preferred. Like I said before the mental trigger (or cue) that helps you get this timing down isn't important as long as it helps you get that timing down. 
Edited by justanotherskipro - 8/22/09 at 5:06am
post #23 of 27
Thread Starter 
i think you hit the nail on teh head there jsutanotherskipro, again, thanks to all who have provided some insight to the matter, i get another few days at teh end of the week so im pumped to see more change in my technique!
post #24 of 27
jasp, offcourse if skis are both on inside edges they will converge and eventually hit but only if skis are running along their edges. Usually they are drifting/skidding sideways and therefore never hit. A more common reason IMO is that low edge angles makes the skis unstable and pivot easily and hit each other.

BTW, Im still not used to using same definitions to "relese" as you seem to be but I agree, the aim would be to relese both skis simultaniously and this is a big challenge for most skiers especially the ones that have been skiing for a very long time using sequensial relese. Like me. But not if I ski with my feet close together in a close stance like when Im skiing bumps, crudd or powder.
post #25 of 27
If you are riding the inside edges of both your skis they will converge.   This can happen due to inconsistent release (as seems to be the case).  It can also happen because your canting is off, so it may be a good idea to check your boot alignment.  You may also be tipping the outside ski more than the inside ski, exacerbating the problem
post #26 of 27

TDK,
I think you have it backwards. A lower edge angle doesn't force us to turn the skis at different times. Nor does how we turn them (carve or skid) matter as much as when we turn them. Get that timing down and the rest falls into place.

post #27 of 27
Ghost, good point!
A bad set up can be another root cause. Compensating for an alignment problem is far more common than most skiers realize.
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