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Lito and Harald break bread - Page 3

post #61 of 77

Could I use that speech next week for my summer history class? "Students" and "responsibility" seems to be a contradiction in terms to too many. Universities ought to print that on dining hall napkins! I've even had really sharp students less than determined to write better (these would be the engineering students).

Thanks, LM. I pretty much figured you had the same "issue" with your students, too. They sign up, make half-hearted efforts, then wonder why they get half-a'd results, like you're going to sculpt their bodies for them while they ain't paying attention. Then again, I ain't addressing this as lord-on-high: I basically work out so as to continue my habits of eating lots of cheese, oreos and ice cream while still fitting into my clothes.

Anyway, as to the debate here, even if I tried the HH way, there's no way the man could have gotten me not to wedge. I'm pigeon toed, for crying out loud; it takes effort for me not to wedge. I call this lazy foot. On a turn, often one ski (esp. left) will go, the other foot doesn't quite make it, esp. if conditions make it an effort. Don't miss getting yelled at by the ex. Similarly, sounds like the PMTS instructors would be Nazis about it, which isn't going to entice me to seek them out. I can hence understand why (if not always agree) that in the contest between unpleasantness and non-improvement the latter often wins. Being sticklers also doesn't make for a good commercial hook, either, which is why emphasizing differences with PSIA, being revolutionary, etc. becomes a necessity as well.


Dante non ha mai immaginato questo cerchio dell'inferno!
post #62 of 77

I got no people. That's the beauty of collegiate teaching: being a 1-man band. Other than the course evaluation forms, they got no check, no balance. I am a free agent. Now, this may change with some of that tenure review crap, but whoever heard of firing a grad student?

You get full credit and someday I will articulate (verbally if not as a written item) a Students' Responsibility Code. Start with Good Attendance, Work in On Time, Do Own Work (no cheating/plagerism) et al. Probably will end with: No, I won't email you or chase you down if you don't meet these stipulations. You will simply get the F you richly deserve.

Maybe that's why y'all have trouble with the pedagogy issues -- you don't get to grade your students and recognize that not all of them are equally applying themselves, much less sufficiently talented to reach your goals, much less theirs. Hmm...


Dante non ha mai immaginato questo cerchio dell'inferno!
post #63 of 77
Lisakaz, in a sense, they do get to grade us by telling us what level class we should go to next. I always find it kind of interesting that at the same resort, different teachers can tell me to go to different levels. Part of it can be chalked up to conditions, or my own biorhythms that day.
But so much of it is my own reaction to the instructor. Some have this uncanny ability to make me feel incredibly safe in any situation. Its nothing I can put a finger on, a sort of protective aura. With these teachers, I am open to at least trying anything.
And then there are those who the idea of going to the top of a mountain with sounds like some sick Joseph Conrad plot. In this situation, I sometimes I feel that my "survival skiing" is a reaction to the instructor.
In the final analysis, its not the system, its the teacher, but more importantly, its the person, their humanity and their integrity that makes them a superb teacher.

On another note, I fail to see a comparison between Gonzo and Scsi. Gonzo sees the truth and makes it apparant to us, no matter how ugly it may be. scsi would have us believe that BS is truth.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #64 of 77
Well there are a couple things going for pmts: simplicity and structure. Ski schools would be wise to think about training with these concepts in mind. Alas other factors intrude and every day chaos knocks on the door. Their reply: "More Bodies!"

Look at JohnH's post above again...

you've arrived just in time as the front line troops are very sick and tired. Seems like this has been going on forever. Fear not, he'll probably come back and rename himself giving you the chance to pull out the flamethrower. Did you manage to get even Bob mad at you? I seriously doubt Ott cursed during your previous spats.

were the students evenly matched in your group in Bormio? I know the instruction was an awful experience, how was the organization of the school?

What's the latest paper you've received? (Bet it's nowhere near my record for handing one in! )<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Tog (edited May 25, 2001).]</FONT>
post #65 of 77

The clock is still ticking and the semester is already over. This is a TF (temporary failure) student who insists she wants to pass because the university will kick her out otherwise. I'm banking on her handing in something (if she does) just before I leave for London. Let's see: one of her papers is probably 2-3 months late now (I'm just not paying close attention) and she owes me THREE. She can do the work, I'm sure; why she doesn't I tend to tune out. You know, blah, blah, blah -- roommate issues, deaths, spring break trip home, etc.

Undergrads seem to have mastered the art of making excuses. Maybe that's what they learn from their parents. I used to try to be understanding, now I just distance myself from it. I think the worse possible thing I can do is to make 'em WORK.

At least in summer session they tend to be a little more focused, if not brighter. I've had a few make excuses owing to work conflicts but only a few. They don't even whine about wanting class outside!


Dante non ha mai immaginato questo cerchio dell'inferno!
post #66 of 77
Yes the students levels were well matched at Bormio. But I don't think that's any compliment to the school. I think the students were honest enough about their own levels.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #67 of 77
To Lisakaz:So you are a prof. of some kind. Look flunk the little cry baby, it is now beyond reasonable compassion on your part. Do everyone a favor including her, either she cuts or gets cut. You have done your part, now it is up to her. If you flunk her she learns a valuable life lesson that will stay with her the rest of her life. That's probably more important than whatever it is you were teaching. You have an opportuity to have a major impact on her life. Just do it. Let her know if she doesn't measure up, she flunks, no excuses. Afterall you have to be fair to those that already have met the course requirements.

PS. Have a great trip to England, and down a pint or two for me as well.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by wink (edited May 25, 2001).]</FONT>
post #68 of 77
>>>I seriously doubt Ott cursed during your previous spats.<<<

No Tog, I actually got to like Gonzo, I just figured him as the kind of individual who walks into a room, bounces off the walls and ceiling, makes an outrages statment, plunks himself down in a chair with his feet on the desk and waits to see what happens

There is no daubt that he is an enthusiastic skier and he contributed some very thoughtful things to this forum. That he keeps coming back must say something about this forum and who would have thought that we would ever actually miss him

post #69 of 77
Tog, since youi asked: I will put Kruckenhauser and Hoppichler in it's own heading since it is very long, but it is history.

post #70 of 77
Oh, great, I go on a motorcycle trip, and Ryan posts one of the best links ever...

Way to go Ryan!

I had not read the dinner conversation, and enjoyed it. The biggest thing that strikes me, is that these guys want to change things, for the better. Approaches are very different, as, I am sure, their skiing & teaching "styles" are different... Imagine that. But very noble ambitions, indeed.

Hey Rusty, (and all) I know what you mean about SCSA. Just be patient, if I know the guy, he'll bust through his usual lack of insight. Get's old sometimes (sorry Paul it does) but that's the way it is. One either accepts, or moves on.

You understand SCSA? No offense, but if you continue being offensive, well, then you are just noise. No substance. Since you love being challenged, learn to debate at a higher level. Don't get mad, think about it. Think, then do.

SCSA will get some interesting results from learning to race. It's a great idea. I'm not much into stick chasing, but I'll run against you. If you come to Breck (ever) I can probably style us some free runs in the race/video course. Unless I end up teaching at Sol Vista

Hey Ott! I miss my persian blue tomcat, Raul. Had him for 17 years. I may get another kitty. I love dogs too, but a cat's independance, well I can relate. First on the short list for new kitty: Korat. Wonderful animals. Second... hey a Maine Coon! Sorry about the toe... At least it won't have to see the inside of a ski boot till it heals. How abaout a brown martini, made from Crown Royal, as pain relief!

All this PMTS vs PSIA stuff is getting old. I will say, that as an off and on again member of the PSIA over the years, the dogmatic approach, and the wonkiness, get's old. However, I find that stuff tedious in any discipline. Boooring. What is intersting, is that the beast is awakening, slowly. Some folks in the PSIA world DO shake things up. and try new things. Unfortunately, they are not always drawn to the politics, the writing of educational materials, etc. It's a shame, that the PSIA get's in the way, but where does this not tend to happen in organizations?

All the cool folks in PSIA, are pushing the envelope. There's a lot of them, but it's confusing right now, and you have to know a trainer personally to really get th gist of it.

I was training at Breck to be a trainer in their internal program, but that option is gone, with the demise of the University of Breckenridge. Sigh. But I sure would LOVE to train rookie ski instructors. Some of them really make me CRINGE.

Of course, I will state here and now, that I have pretty strong feeling about organizations that exist a bit too much for the sake of the sake of the organization, and not it's members. Ummm, maybe that's why I have been a registered Libertarian for years. Imagine that.

So, I went to cert with them. It was far better than I thought it would be. Is there anybosy else on this board that has had PMTS instruction or cert training? Anyone in the woodwork?

I'd love to discuss, but I want more that a Pythonesque Argument Clinic. So I have not gotten into an "argument" here. Besides, it's best done in LAB, on the hill, where we can "check the premises".

JohnH ____________________ sez:

The problem is with the instructors. the operative word here is dedicated. The real problem is the lack of dedicated instructors.

Exactly. Thank you. Seems that the instructors LEAST likely to be that way, ummm hang out here! I know for instance, that Vail Resorts ski schools run at a 40 percent profit margin, or so. I wish I ahd more of that action.

The ONLY way I can get a real piece of that pie, is to get more privates. Then the resorts profit margin is even higher. IF ski instruction was more of a profession, there would be more professional ski instructors.

The only pros, are the ones who do this for the LOVE of it. Which is exactly why I keep coming back, to this forum. It's damn good company to keep! You know who you are!

I'm off to ride the motorcycle WITHOUT 160 lbs of stuff strapped to it. I have this burnign desire to get some G-Forces in some TURNS for some, crazy, very addictive reason.


¯¯¯/__ SnoKarver snokarver@excite.com
post #71 of 77
SnoKarver, we have let our dislike for Harb's rederick and villification of PSIA cloud our judgement of his teaching sequence and method which is actually OK. The fight comes in when different schools of ski teaching claim it is the only way.

I have stated before that I went and skied all of the maneuvers in Harb's first book and they were fine, easy to do.

But,at advanced or expert level, there is no ONE RIGHT WAY to ski, as all instructors here have stressed, one needs to know them ALL and ski waht is appropriate for conditions and terrain.

Now if ski instructing were as in Austria where a two year major of Physical Education
at a University is required for an associate certificate and four years of college with the last two years a major in ski instructing for a full certification, or the attendance of a special Phys Ed/Ski Training/Mountain-guiding high school, where these instructors are subsidised by the tourism bureau of the government and where these instructors work full time for a liftime in ski instruction in the Winter and Mountain guides the rest of the year, it IS a profession.

post #72 of 77

I tend to agree with Wink, esp. after being one of the worst late paper offenders myself. (my record's got plenty of cushion still with her 3 months). 3 at once is not good though. the later they are the better they have to be (in one's mind, actually there won't be time)

Have a great time in England! Though I'm concerned!!! They play soccer there!!! you need to read my post on "Are skiers team players?" It will tell you what you need to be aware of. Remember, France is always an easy option.
post #73 of 77
We still need to hear about Kruckenhauser and Hopplicher. What did they do and espouse and did that comment have any connection to reality at all? Or was it just another Harbian smearing of reality?
post #74 of 77
Hi Ott,
Yes, I agree completely - wish it could be so!

SnoKarver - if you see this - what happened to the University of Breckenridge, and what's replaced it?

~Michelle H.~
( skiandsb@vail.net )
"Tell me I forget, teach me I remember, involve me I learn."
- Ben Franklin
post #75 of 77
Ott, Michelle, things may be moving in that direction. I've mentioned in a few posts that as fitness moves slightly away from the concept of vanity and towards a concept of wellness, we are emphasizing sport as an important aspect of people's lives. It took us awhile, but we are realizing that in creating chronic "gym rats", we have thus created monsters. As a result, every fitness conference will feature many of "fitness and sport" sessions.
Many universities currently have Fitness and Fitness Fitness Management majors, as well as traditional Physical Education programs. I don't see why Ski Instruction caould not be incorporated into that, to promote this vision.
But the real changes have to happen with the resorts. Nobody is going to go pay for a college education to earn the slave wages that ski instructors make. Turning instructors into year round employees, with different responsibilities in different seasons may help encourage people to make a full time commitment, but not without decent pay.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #76 of 77
O.k, I get the picture. At times it seemed this might happen with Wacko(scsa,paul). Everytime he'd actually start discussing something and it appeared there was progress he'd suddenly go back to square one and say the exact same thing. This gets tiring as does the "need" for continual "air strikes".

I second the notion that Ott is a gentleman.
post #77 of 77
Didn't anyone teach you to respect your elders. Since your the one with the large pie hole, shoot'n off about your wealth etc., why don't you fly all those you've challenged to your home mountain. I am quite sure it would be a humbling experience, for you that is.
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