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Lito and Harald break bread - Page 2

post #31 of 77
Teaching wedge turns is immoral.
And it's bad karma.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited May 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #32 of 77
To Pierre eh:

On a previous post to this thread, you indicated that you wanted "to dig deep into Harb's Stuff."

Also you didn't want to enrich him. Suggestion visit: first. That may be all that you will need to really get you angry.
post #33 of 77
To Ott,

Re. the language, no apology was necessary.

Re. the toe, ice it, elevate it, hydrogen peroxide to "bubble" out any infection, then use some bactine as a painless anaseptic. If the nail isn't completely torn off, tape it back on. You will eventually loose it, but it will help the healing process.

Re. the cat. Some sumptious soft food, and a little extra cat nip and a lot of "that's a good kitty," and as you are doing that another re-enforcing phrase like," you know who loves you." Don't worry if the cat plays the "I could care less game," for that's what it is.

Re the toe again: a good stiff drink, leave at that don't use alcohol as an anasethitic.Motrin for pain, or enteric coated asprin.
Take some extra vitimins such as A.C.and E.
And keep the foot elevate above your heart even when you sleep tonite and at least the next two nights, and stay off it as much as possible. Ice whenever possible, 20 minutes on 10 minutes rest.If you get the toe wet bathing or showering, in order to prevent infection, more hydrogen peroxide, to bubble out the water and any germs.
post #34 of 77
In all the lessons I've taken, not once has a teacher said "Okay gang, today we're going to work on rotary.. or pressure".
That's a myth.
post #35 of 77
You know Bob, what we experience here reminds me so much of giving a group lesson. It's the slow learner that we don't want to give up on, who just doesn't get it, and doesn't get it, so you spend the majority of your time with this stragler.

But sometimes it is better to kick him out of your class and tell him to get his money back and buy a beer with it.....and then you go home and blame yourself for not having been able to teach him effectively. You hardly ever think of your successes, but failures stick with you.


post #36 of 77
Paul- What in the world would make you say the things that you have said and/or act the way you have acted on this forum for the past few days.

I came to meet you, to ski with you, to explore PMTS with an open mind. I offered you my friendship. I praised your ability/athleticism/passion. Think about what you have done in return.

I have a degree from Duke University. . I have the highest level of certification awarded law enforcement in the state where I was employed. A level of certification that takes a minimum of six years to obtain. I was certified as a paramedic. I was a member of the Canadian Ski Patrol. None of this, I mean none of it means as much to me as having achieved level 1 certification by PSIA. Lowly level 1. The very entry level of certification. Pride is not something one should have. I won't go into my beliefs. I try to be the most humble man on the face of the earth. That's important to me. You, who have been skiing for one year, for some unknown reason have the audacity to essentially spit in my face after all I've tried to do for you. I just don't understand it.

I think the comments about the white turtlenecks speak volumes. I don't know what baggage you bring with you to your life today but I suggest you let it go. There has not been a single soul associated with PSIA who has not been kind to me. I don't know where you get your notions.

The next time you trash PSIA, remember you are trashing me. The guy who came to meet you. The guy who offered you a little fellowship.

I go back to my initial question....why would you act this way?
post #37 of 77
Thanks Dr. Wink, I'll follow your advice.. ....Ott
post #38 of 77
Rusty: that gave me goosebumps and brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for your honesty.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #39 of 77
Rusty, you are a good person.... ....Ott
post #40 of 77
By the way Scsi:

Dr. Robert A. Hintermeister:
(Consultant with Harb Ski Systems)
...Director of the Rehabilitation and Human Performance Laboratory at the Steadman Hawkins Sports Med. Found. from 1991-97....His professional associations include the Amer. College of Sports Med., the Int. Society of Biomechanics, and the Professional Ski Instructors of America (PSIA).

post #41 of 77
I'm telling all of you. He is a very likeable person. I honestly enjoyed meeting him. I enjoyed skiing with him.

I'm honestly baffled by the guy.

Ott, I spoke to an instructor from Cleveland today who knew you. I was getting my stuff on in the parking lot at A-Basin next to her. I'm not much good at chatting with 20-something blondes anymore so I didn't catch her name. Young,blond,taught boarding at Brandywine this year and is out here for the summer to work in a national park. She was a very good rider.

Saw the national disabled team training today. I'm usually a very upbeat guy but it made me thankfull for all the physical attributes (okay...arms and legs) that I have. Next time I have a bad day and am feeling sorry for myself I'll harken back to these courageous folks. I wanted to go up to them and say something, however, I couldn't figure out the right thing to say. Now that I think about it, maybe, "You folks sure do ski well" would have sufficed.
post #42 of 77

My promise of the travel to France,

Our tour of France via wine took us to Roussillion, Corbienes.. Lanquedoc. Mineruois. Banyuls.. Any of these ring any bells. Thought of you when we got to taste the 1998 Cotes' Rotie les Grandes Places Jean Micheal Gerin.
deep purple/garnet with slight bricks edges, deeply extracted Blueberrys currents, Cherry and plum. Velvety texture full bodied with a hint of vanilla and cedar on the finish.. Medium acid and firm round tannin.
Now all we got to do is get smell-o vision for the computer so I can send the wonderful sensation over.
post #43 of 77

You always make a big deal about this. What's the big deal?

You quoted him from an article he wrote in the PSIA Journal, HH says, "PSIA’s system is compete etc." that was in 1993.
and before shaped skis came out, which is the whole freakin point!

When he wrote that, he was totally new to the system. He wanted to make a good impression and hadn’t seen the problems that he felt the PSIA system created out in the field. He wrote that about what he knew from PSIA that was somewhat reasonable. It took only one more year as a Demo Team member to discover he did not agree with the whole PSIA approach, its interpretation, and implementation.

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by SCSA (edited May 24, 2001).]</FONT>
post #44 of 77
Awwwww to heck with you guys. Go do your thing and I'll do mine.

We'll see where this whole thing is 2 years from now. I'll tell you one thing though. If it really does take off, you all better be here to take your lumps.

Barnes, I'll be looking you up at Copper. I'll wait till the mountain has filled in and then I'll come see you.

See ya on the slopes.

And on that friendly note, taco to you later.
Your friend,
post #45 of 77
I didn't mean to imply you were against instructors. What I meant to imply was the the PSIA "method" is a little more open-ended than the PMTS system, which does allow for a greater flexability when it comes to approach. There are many ways to get to the same place, but some are more efficient than others in certain situations. A good instructor will choose the most appropriate route, a bad instructor will chose the same old route no matter what the conditions. To expand on my already tired road analogy, Harald didn't lay the pavement, he just chose the roads that he thought most appropriate. He really didn't need to rename them, though...

I have no doubt that in two years you will be an excellent skier. With the determination and time you invest, I would expect no less. However, try to explore different methodology with an open mind when you get the chance. Of the 10 or so different instructors I've had, not one has had the same approach to skiing and each had a differet take on ways for me to improve. You know, I'm a better skier for it.
post #46 of 77
Paul - Perhaps I missed something along the way as I must admit I haven't read all the PMTS vs PSIA threads, but I do have a question for you and an observation.

Are you PSIA certified?

You keep telling everyone on the board that they can't comment on PMTS until they are certified and "understand" the system. However, you allow yourself free reign to tear apart PSIA. By your own logic, you shouldn't comment till you've become certified in PSIA.
post #47 of 77
Wayyy too much to read, up there. But I read about half of the "conversation" between Harb and Lito, and about the first 15-20 messages here. So if I repeat something that's already been said, I apologize. But I don't think it has been said.

They (HH&Lito) sit there and discuss the problems with the state of ski instruction, and they come to the conclusion that it's the System that trains the instructors. Then, the folks here just sort of plod along discussing the validity of which system it is, or whether it's the instructor, not the system.

That's like saying, "my car won't run, I think I'll change the tires". Guess what? It still won't run.

The problem is with the instructors. However, it is NOT the fault of the instructor. Nor, is is the fault of the organization that trains them. Any dedicated instructor will be able to effectively teach, and create students with a desire to learn. However, the operative word here is dedicated. The real problem is the lack of dedicated instructors.

The problem lies within the ski industry as a whole, and in particular, with ski resort management and corporations who own them. I know this has been beat to death before, but it still remains true. How good of an education in school do you think our kids would get if we paid teachers $6.50/hr, and only paid them for 4 hours a day, 5 days a week for 4 months a year? Well, that's what you're paying ski instructors ("you" being the general public who doesn't demand better instructors). But we do this with our school teachers too. The American public bitches and complains about the state of public school education, but we only pay tachers about $30k/yr, then people actually have the nerve to complain when some jurisdiction decides to give them a 3% raise for the first time in 5 years! Working for a big corporation, sitting behind a desk, I've doubled my salary in the last 4 years, and I still don't make the "average" individual income for the local area I live in.

So until people come out and ask for a better education, by requesting more experienced instructors, and by being willing to pay for it, and until ski areas realize that paying instructors even a lowest living wage will reap huge rewards in the future, then ski instruction will not change. No matter how great technology improves or what system is being used to train instructors.

**Due to the power shortage, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off indefinitely.
post #48 of 77
Rusty, small world... I don't know who it was, especially since I ski and spend my time at Boston Mills, the sister area to Brandywine, owned by the same people and skied on the same ticket with free shuttle busses between the two..

But, being a dinosaur there (38 years), my notoriety has spread, there are a zillion war stories about me, some of them even true

Rusty, no matter what level instructor you are, I would gladly take a lesson from you.
Students feel at ease, given your personality, and they learn.

Respectfully... ....Ott
post #49 of 77
dchan, you and my wife Ann, real wine lovers. How you can go ga-ga over grape juice is beyond me

Give me a good beer anytime. But I grew up in Bavaria and Ann grew up in Corinthia (Kaernten) Austria, thus the difference...
Austrians, especially the Viennese, have many songs extolling the virtues of wine, nary a song about beer, which they consider to be hog slop.

post #50 of 77
I appreciate a well made ale or beer too. I just enjoy wine more. A lot of craftsmanship and a lot of "luck" from mother nature blended into a wonderful beverage. Now am I talking about wine or beer/ale?
I know you are well traveled and thought you might appreciate the trip through Southern France.. I'll have to go there some day.
post #51 of 77
Naw, DB, Ann's been here in the US over 40 years, just like me.

post #52 of 77
Try this on for size:

Since y'all are banging your heads against the wall about what is wrong in the dynamics between instructor and student (it's the system, it's the instructor...etc.) maybe the "problem" is simply IT'S THE STUDENT!

I'm not being flip here; I'm being sadly realistic based on the type of students I teach. Did I become poor in instruction (presumably I'd get better with more experience) or have students become more observers/consumers of their own education, who expect to acquire skills without approaching them with an attitude that puts the onus on them to learn? I think y'all should recall that some "terminal intermediates" will not take lessons because they are anti-lesson and some skiers who will take them will not be terribly enthusiastic about their own level of improvement.

This idea occurred to me when remembering something my French (English speaking) instructor said: he said I was a good student. Well, duh -- I am a professional student. But I think the reason why HE said it (his perspective) is that, even if someone is paying for a lesson, that the student still isn't all that committed to Doing/Listening or whatnot.

Maybe y'all are banging your heads against the wall (like I do all the time -- that's why this is familiar to me, even if the terms/pedagogy are different) for something that's at least somewhat out of your hands beyond the power of personality to be compelling. Maybe for some the lesson is a break from skiing with person X and that's it. Or, from where I stand, graduation credits and sitting next to person X (i.e., ho hum re: the task at hand).

This seems why HH wants to create a new lingo, passion for it, etc. Sure it has a commercial ring to it, but that's how consumers are taught to respond, so it has a niche already. Reminds me of for-profit universities and e-learning, etc. The academics cringe and all but students don't respond like they used to do, either. There may be a purpose to this, but something marginally related to skiing.


Dante non ha mai immaginato questo cerchio dell'inferno!

<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by lisakaz (edited May 25, 2001).]</FONT>
post #53 of 77
Thread Starter 
if a "student" WANTS TO BECOME A BETTER SKIER, he or she will, and will gravitate toward what seems like it might work, try that, then try this, etc., because the drive is toward skiing, NOT any particular school. there's nothing wrong with taking from here and there; that's being creative and curious.
the STUDENT will be the one, in the end, who decides whether to keep at it or not, and will realize that the student phase changes, it doesn't end (especially at any particular door with a certain shingle above it).
there's nothing wrong with teaching oneSELF to ski. but, if progression is wanted, the skier will discover - looking around, comparing - that some sort of education, formal or otherwise, is needed; and the student will continue, or not.

post #54 of 77
You mean I don't just put a coin in the machine, pop a pill and instant skier?

Thanks for the "reality check"
post #55 of 77
gonzo, love your "if 2),then 1) applies"

Pierre eh!: I have a Harb book you can borrow. Drop me a line at
I could send it today if I hear by 5 eastern
post #56 of 77
SCSA said "We'll see where this whole thing is 2 years from now. I'll tell you one thing though. If it really does take off, you all better be here to take your lumps."

Even if PMTS does take off, it will still be an intermediate teaching tool. It already has difficulty being effective for true beginners (due to equipment issues already mentioned) and I suspect that there is no way it can be a teaching system for experts unless it accepts that there is more to skiing than the primary movements it espouses.

I just cannot imagine that you will never learn to carve with a two-footed stance, or learn that some rotation can enhance your control over your skis, or realize that it is unnecessary to touch your boots to achieve a carved turn or to navigate through crud.

Most of all, you have to take a long look at your posts. They show a lot of frustration and are somewhat insensitive. You expect to persuade expert skiers (teachers and examiners no less) to embrace your enthusiasm about PMTS, without ever realizing that most of them are in the "been there, done that" camp. These experts may not have re-named and marketed any of the primary moves and may not have isolated them as effectively as Harb or Lito, but they have used them and even incorporated them in their lessons for a long time (at least since shaped skis took off in 96-97). And one more thing: stop saying "teaching the wedge is immoral". Did you see how they teach the wedge today? Do you realize that today's wedge technique (the countered wedge and the carved wedge) borrows from the gorilla turn? Take a look:

There is no dead end here. It is a progression. In fact when you master the gorilla turn you are a step away (literally) from your beloved phantom foot. Just raise the inside foot and balance through the turn. Of course, you are also an edge away from two-footed carves. See where I am getting? All I am trying to say is that traditional teaching systems (non-PMTS) have evolved right along the the shaped ski. If you would take the time to learn and play with these techniques, you would certainly realize that PMTS is only one part of a bigger puzzle.
post #57 of 77
lisakaz; BRAVA!! I think that any of us who teach anything need to hear that. Indeed, the instant gratification society we live does not help any of us who pride ourselves in being educators, not simply teachers. Since Pilates has become so "vogue", everyone wants to say that they "do Pilates", so they can "get rid of" their gut. But the amount of concentration and attention to detail is often beyond what many students will commit to.

Rusty, as a law enforcement officer, I'm sure you've encountered perpetraters who have completely charming personalities, even when being questioned. They're called psychopaths.

Be Braver in your body, or your luck will leave you. DH Lawrence
post #58 of 77
Rusty, I've just backed up and seen your posts. Cheers to you for being so open. All the way down here not one mention by the subject. Weird, odd. Though sad, perhaps your kindness is better spent on others?

well paul, "whatever". i'm sure it'll be the same old same old
post #59 of 77
Why ski lessons don't work?

Thanks to Ryan I discovered Lito's web site. See the phrase above ? That's the title of one of the articles that is on Lito's website:

It's worth a read, but may only give some clues. Maybe the whole approach in teaching must be changed or adapted to the student, and how that particular student learns best.
post #60 of 77
Gonzo, I was looking forward to your return, as I felt that you could help us understand Paul. After all, you and he have a very similiar modus operandi when it comes to arguing on this forum. Do you see the irony in your last post? It could be any one of a number of us referring to you!

Please don't make me look dumb.
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