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Just for fun... Cuz it's summer and all.

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
This is an old video I found from 2006-2007 It's a regional slalom race. So last hairpin I straddle (or think I did). Anyways I didn't get called out on it and I ended up winning the race. So did I straddle or not?


post #2 of 27
It's a straddle...clean passage is defined by the passage of the feet, not the skis.

Was that a gate judge on skier's right a couple of gates down?  I think it would have been fairly easy to pick up from there, but if the hairpin was being judged from above, your body might have blocked the view of your ski hitting the gate.
post #3 of 27
I'm no race official, but it looks to me that even though your foot hit the gate it went around it.  I vote no straddle.

BTW, good skiing!

JF
post #4 of 27
It looks like a correct passage to me, though it's a tough call, and I probably would've gone the other way based on the full-speed version.

Ironically, that's my conclusion, even though the rule is actually more stringent than mogulmuncher's version.

The relevant rule is 661.4.1, which says, "A gate has been passed correctly when both the competitor's* ski tips and both feet have passed across the gate line." That is, it's not enough for the feet to pass correctly, but both of the two feet and both of the two ski tips (four things altogether) have to pass through the gate.

What I saw in the video was both the feet passing correctly, but one of the tips maybe going on the wrong side. The combination in question is, as the OP mentions, a hairpin: two closed gates set directly above each other. He enters the combination correctly, coming over the single pole at the top. At the double pole, he hits the gates with the tip of his right ski, and possibly his arm as well. It's very difficult to tell, but it looks like his tip, after hitting the gates, glances off to the right (his left), which is the correct side. His feet go around the double pole correctly, with room to spare. Everything passes on the correct side of the bottom pole: it isn't a turning pole at all, though in all the flinging around associated with catching his tip, he actually winds up fairly close to it.

It's pretty quick, and it's possible that the limited viewpoint (and low resolution) may be misleading.
______
*The quotation is the FIS website version. The printed USSA Alpine Combination Guide unaccountably changes "competitor's" to "competitors'," which doesn't make much sense unless we're involved in some sort of doubles competition, in which case I supposed we'd be worrying about eight things going around each gate the right way.
post #5 of 27
Here's a diagram. The arrow points at the place he gets into trouble.

post #6 of 27
Thread Starter 
You can tell by my reaction and taking my bib off at first what my opinion was on it at the moment...

Yes it was a gate juge down there and no it wasn't a parent of my team or a relative :P

Just to make sure were talking about the same one, its the last hairpin of the course, the one featured in the slow mo, not the one where I get boot locked up top.

Any of you think it was a poorly set hairpin?
post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 
yea you can see that I realise im not going to make it and make a move to bring my ski inside the line
post #8 of 27
This video capture looks pretty clearly like a good passage.

There's the tip of the right ski way to the correct side of both poles. It didn't get there by passing on the wrong side of a pole either. The upper pole is just going down, but it's being hit by one or a combination of his right hand and the outside edge of the ski (his tip having struck it and glanced off to the correct side). The inside pole is still standing, and hasn't been hit at all. In a split-second he's going to flatten it with his left arm and his knee.
post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 
Do you think the boot made it passed on the right side of the gate as well?
post #10 of 27
Here, for good measure, is a slightly earlier capture:


Clearly the outside of the ski hit the gate.

It's low enough that I don't think it's really possible for the boot to have gone on the wrong side of the gate. To do that, it would have had to knock the base of the gate out of the snow. It's pretty tough to get the tip on the right side and the foot on the wrong side: you'd either have to kick the gate with your foot way up off the ground or slide down the length of the pole with the front part of the ski (or knock the gate out of the snow). I don't see that here. In the first capture in the earlier post, the foot is already past the pole and the pole isn't even all that bent over.

If the pole hadn't been there, the front of the ski would very likely have gone right over the spot where it was set. But it was, and it knocked the whole ski and foot to the correct side.
post #11 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post

Here, for good measure, is a slightly earlier capture:


Clearly the outside of the ski hit the gate.

It's low enough that I don't think it's really possible for the boot to have gone on the wrong side of the gate. To do that, it would have had to knock the base of the gate out of the snow. It's pretty tough to get the tip on the right side and the foot on the wrong side: you'd either have to kick the gate with your foot way up off the ground or slide down the length of the pole with the front part of the ski (or knock the gate out of the snow). I don't see that here. In the first capture in the earlier post, the foot is already past the pole and the pole isn't even all that bent over.

If the pole hadn't been there, the front of the ski would very likely have gone right over the spot where it was set. But it was, and it knocked the whole ski and foot to the correct side.

All very good points.

If any of you were ever gate juges would you let yourself be influenced by the athlete's body language when making a decision?

And again, do you think that hairpin was appropriately set?
post #12 of 27
Seeing it straight off, it looked like you made it. Slowly, it was clear too. sjjohnson showed how.

When gate judging it's imperative NOT to take the athletes' reaction into account and simply go by what you saw. Also, it's important not to mark a DSQ unless you're sure it happened. You watch the snow, watch the feet. Every race I've worked at, from J5s to NorAms have stressed the fact that if you're not sure to give the athlete the benefit of the doubt. If it's so close and important enough, somebody will protest it with video.

The hairpin looked a little tight, but I think it was a fair test. You came in a little too straight and it caught you. Just my $0.02
post #13 of 27
We talk about the feet to emphasize that just getting the tips across the gate line is not enough, but sj, you are of course correct with the complete definition of clean passage (with one final note that covers passage with a single ski...)

This is the key point in terms of what I saw:  in the first gate of the hairpin, I see the front of the right ski knocking the outside pole out of the way, but the foot going outside the pole.  Both ski tips, but only one foot crossed the gate line, so I would call a gate fault.  Both skis and feet cross the second gate of the hairpin properly.

Here's the picture I would have drawn on a gate card to illustrate:


I don't think the hairpin was particularly well set.  The two preceding gates are set like a chicane, not what I would consider a good entry to a combination.  The distance and offset into the hairpin, and the off-fall-line set look disruptive as well.  That is one way to test competitors, but there are better ways. 

The final point, the closing pole for the exit from the hairpin should be in line with the first gate, like this:

Edited by mogulmuncher - 7/14/2009 at 06:09 pm GMT
post #14 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:

The final point, the closing pole for the exit from the hairpin should be in line with the first gate, like this:

Edited by mogulmuncher - 7/14/2009 at 06:09 pm GMT

Its unfortunate but some coaches are antiquated in their thinking and are used (for some reason) to setting hairpins with control gates offset to the line. When I set I remain consistant with the standards but I even find race officials questionning my sets because of it. Really annoying.

The coach that set this dates quite a ways back and sets illegal courses all the time, no one stands up to him because they don't want to have to deal with resetting a whole new course.

 

The course that you saw there had ridiculous vertical distance (hence why I was forearming some gates... Shows a lot how a set can influence a race... That perticular hairpin took out the guy in front of me, me (debatable), the guy after me and three other guys in the top seed. Almost like it was a trap for the faster guys.

post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post

It's a straddle...clean passage is defined by the passage of the feet, not the skis.

Was that a gate judge on skier's right a couple of gates down?  I think it would have been fairly easy to pick up from there, but if the hairpin was being judged from above, your body might have blocked the view of your ski hitting the gate.

 
It appears the gate judge to the skier's right of the hairpain is not in a good position.  In order to see 'tips and boots' it is best for the judge to be positioned below the gates assigned for the most accurate vantage point.  A side view is never accurate. But, as is the case in many races, these gates may have been assigned to someone at the finish.  

I would not note bib 8 as a 'fault'.
post #16 of 27
Looks clean to me. Both your skis and boots cleared it, even though you hit the gate. Think of it this way, they were through the line where the gates are in the ground.
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post



It appears the gate judge to the skier's right of the hairpain is not in a good position.  In order to see 'tips and boots' it is best for the judge to be positioned below the gates assigned for the most accurate vantage point.  A side view is never accurate. But, as is the case in many races, these gates may have been assigned to someone at the finish.  

I would not note bib 8 as a 'fault'.


 


Even with the off-fall-line set, the hairpin gates are nominally vertical, and the gate judge to skier's right would be roughly perpendicular to those gates.  In this case, the side view is a good position to judge crossing of the gate line.
post #18 of 27

SJ, interesting that we've both used the same pictures to support different conclusions.  Just goes to show how challenging it can be to judge SL races.  I fully agree with you that this is a close one to call.

TMAS, you've picked a really good example that's generated some good discussion points.  This would make a great case study on an officials course.

One other coaching comment I would make, in a case like this I would encourage my athletes to keep racing right through to the end.  Don't stand up and relax if you think there might have been a fault -- if it's a close call, let the jury decide if the run counts or not.  Good for you that you still won the race.

post #19 of 27
Not a straddle.  No question.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post


...the gate judge to skier's right would be roughly perpendicular to those gates.  In this case, the side view is a good position to judge crossing of the gate line.
Standing perpendicular to the gate is never the best position to judge the crossing of the gate line.
post #21 of 27
Thread Starter 
Even for a "vertical" combination?
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post

Not a straddle.  No question.
 

I suppose since a "straddle" usually means one ski on either side of the pole, there was no straddle per se by this definition.

But I still see a gate fault.  The outside edge of the downhill/right ski clipped the gate while off the snow, clearing it in a downhill direction.  In doing this, the right boot passed the base of the pole on the downhill side, which is outside the gate line for the first gate of the hairpin. 



Edit for clarification:

"The outside edge of the downhill/right ski clipped the outside pole of the gate"

Edited by mogulmuncher - 7/16/2009 at 12:21 am GMT
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post




I suppose since a "straddle" usually means one ski on either side of the pole, there was no straddle per se by this definition.

But I still see a gate fault.  The outside edge of the downhill/right ski clipped the gate while off the snow, clearing it in a downhill direction.  In doing this, the right boot passed the base of the pole on the downhill side, which is outside the gate line for the first gate of the hairpin. 



Edit for clarification:

"The outside edge of the downhill/right ski clipped the outside pole of the gate"

Edited by mogulmuncher - 7/16/2009 at 12:21 am GMT

I get what you are saying, and great illustration, but I never would have called it.  That run stands if I'm the gatekeeper.
post #24 of 27
Thread Starter 






looking at the 6 previous frames, its kinda hard to believe I got myself across that line in time...
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post


I get what you are saying, and great illustration, but I never would have called it.  That run stands if I'm the gatekeeper.

 

I noted a gate fault on the first viewing at regular speed, and more detailed slo-mo analysis didn't change my mind.  You and several others saw the same video evidence and came to a different conclusion.  SJ in particular gave a very detailed description (esp. #4 & #10) of the path to his decision.  This shows to me that the call is close enough (at least from this viewing angle) for different interpretations, and that makes the discussion worthwhile. 

It's close enough that if I were a jury member reviewing a protest based on this video evidence, I would not over-rule your decision as a gate judge if you had called clean passage.  Similarly, if you had called a fault, I would still support your decision.  This might seem inconsistent, but the reasoning is pretty simple:  you as the gate keeper are in the best vantage point to most accurately judge the outcome.  You've demonstrated correct understanding of the rule in question, so it shouldn't be my job as a jury member to second-guess your judgement.  As it happens, the only times when I personally have had to over-rule a gate keeper is when a fault has been declared by an incorrect interpretation of a rule.

The one other thing I might have done during the race as a jury member is made sure that the gate keepers in that section were well-positioned to see the racers clearly.  TMAS noted that a number of racers got hung up in that section, so that's a cue to gate keepers to pay close attention to help avoid the heated protest arguments afterward.
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMAS29 View Post







looking at the 6 previous frames, its kinda hard to believe I got myself across that line in time...


 

If you don't actually fall, you're still in balance...

Excellent demonstration of the 5th kind of balance:  "recovery balance!"
post #27 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogulmuncher View Post




If you don't actually fall, you're still in balance...

Excellent demonstration of the 5th kind of balance:  "recovery balance!"

I'm actually pretty happy with the angles I created on that turn :P
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