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problems with negative movement

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
So, I have been skiing for 18 years (im 20) and I have always practiced skiing bumps in a fast zipper line type style - NEGATIVE skiing. Always in the trough, always trying to finds ways not to get kicked around. I have recently become a ski instructor and PSIA advocates seriously against everything that I have learned. I am finding it amazingly difficult to move from my fast, bouncy, superflous-movement skiing technique to the positive movements that I am being taught. Does anybody have any ideas
post #2 of 26
Training &

PRACTICE
post #3 of 26
Oh & on gentle terrain & slower speed than you normally use too...
post #4 of 26
Thread Starter 
yes....practice obviously and on slow terrain, but practice what/
post #5 of 26
Taylor, drop the negative judgement on your skiing first.

Try simply focusing your eyes on and paying attention to the other 85% of the terrain in the bumps. Keep your eyes looking at the tops and the sides, and turn where you look. It's the old look where you want to go. Best single advice I ever got for skiing bumps. It works in the bumps the same as it does anywhere else. And have some patience. Slow your movement patterns down. Ski two or three bumps at a time instead of one and focus on making your movements progressive, slow and deliberate. Make yourself ski them as slow as you can. Try pivot slips down the spine of the bumps.

I've got a freind in our locker room who used to ski the the pro mogul tour. He's an inspirational skier. When he went from coaching to teaching the hardest thing for him to do was dial it down, especially in the bumps. It happened for him, it'll happen for you. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Edit, I should add that the hardest thing for me was to dial it up.

[ December 14, 2003, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Ric B ]
post #6 of 26
That is what the training part is for - to determine the practice schedule....
post #7 of 26
Taylor you will not erase what you already know you will simply add a whole new dimension to you're skiing. Getting with someone and doing rail road track type turns with positive movements is about a far removed from moguls skiing as it gets. I was where you are a few years back.
The first year as an instructor I felt that I skied far worse than I did before I was an instructor. I had to go back and start from near scratch to build on positive movements. My mogul skiing has gotten far better because of the changes.

The best thing that ever happened to me was getting put at our sister resort that has no moguls. It was time to learn to really ski.
post #8 of 26
Taylor,

Whilst I am far from being a great (or even good) bump skier, the advice that really helped me was to learn the pros and cons of making turns on the bump, trough and gullies of moguls, eg its easier to turn on bumps but easy to loose control of your skis etc. This made me aware that there are a number of ways to ski bumps and this is what makes it fun. It also makes you aware of what you need to work on.

Good luck.
post #9 of 26
Taylor and I have skied three days during the past two weekends in the same training class (the first two days with Epic's own Rusty Guy). Taylor is an excellent skier, but, as many of us, needs to learn technique to make the most effective use of modern equipment. It will certainly help when he has his new Fischer WC SCs!

That said, today we worked on pure carves both as railroad track turns and as the ultimate "ski the slow line fast" turns on blue terrain (including carving to a stop, slipping into the new carve in the other direction, and carving to another stop). We did pivot slips, and he let me do a little pocket coaching with him on high-speed carved turns, as well.

He had a real breakthrough late in the day as he really worked on tipping his inside ski in the turns. He can still ski the zipper line, but he's begun to experiment with other alternatives to the bang-bang of that line. Isn't that what learning is about, anyway? Discovery!

ssh
post #10 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by ssh:
. Isn't that what learning is about, anyway? Discovery!

ssh
Yep pity the instructors here seem to loath the concept so much....
post #11 of 26
Taylor,

PSIA does not advocate against zipper line skiing. It's one of many tactics one can use to ski the bumps. You will find higher level PSIA folks encouraging you to be ABLE to ski the bumps using other tactics and encourage you to TEACH those other tactics when INTRODUCING skiers to the bumps. There is consumer demand for learning zipper line bump skiing - see the instructors in Europe thread. PSIA loves giving the student what they want.

As for suggestions, the main thing that PSIA looks for with other tactics is the ability to make turns. If you can make dynamic short radius turns, you're 90% of the way to performing any of the other non-zipper tactics in the bumps. If you can't, learn the desired movements on the groomed runs first. The other 10% of bump skiing is choosing the line, maintaining contact with the snow and staying centered over the skis. Those are things zipper line skiers should be able to do well anyway. Can you make constant radius turns regardless of where the bumps are? Start with small bumps or ski larger bumps slow and more across the fall line, then work your way up.

More efficient turns are not necessarily more fun turns. Zipper line turns are fun, but they're hard to do all day long. Having an easier way down in your toolkit will make you a better skier.
post #12 of 26
Having spent two days skiing with Taylor in a hiring clinic I can say with conviction his skiing is fine and will merely get better! The same goes for ssh.

I think like many of us, the two of them can be a little tough on themselves and can be a bit too perfectionist.

I think what was a little eye opening for Taylor as it was for me is just how difficult it is to do a really good wedge turn and/or wedge christies. Blending all the right movements into "the picture" is exceedingly difficult. I know the more I try the worse I get and the best thing I can do is......just ski em! No straight lines and keep making circles is the best advice I have ever heard and that was from our own inimitable Robin.
post #13 of 26
Taylor,

I like Rusty's advice to work on short radius turns.

I'd also encourage you to do long traverses on bump runs punctuated by turns that mirror the movements that you are rehearsing in the traverse, gradually shortening the traverses until you are in the fall line 100%. If you lose tempo or balance or grip, go back to the traverse to regain it and try again. The advantage of this exercise for new bump skiers is it requires them to start out in an fairly slow and secure manner and dial it up as they decide.

This task can have a lot of different focuses, including learning: how to absorb bumps and maintain pressure in troughs; fore-aft balance/pressure; how to use core muscles to stabilize the high activity of the legs; pole timing--swing, touch, and go--in rhythmic succession.

To add refinement to this task, make garlands instead of traverses.

[ December 16, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: nolo ]
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ssh:
. Isn't that what learning is about, anyway? Discovery!

ssh
Yep pity the instructors here seem to loath the concept so much....</font>[/quote]disski

Could you elaborate on this statement? I'm certainly not an instructor, just a relatively new skier who posts here with the intent of learning. I think the instructors who post here have been great and your assertion regarding them loathing the concept of discovery escapes me. This has not been my experience here to date, but maybe I don't understand what you mean by your statement.
post #15 of 26
disski,

Was this the exercise you were talking about?

Quote:
However from other balance learning I know how much the simple TOUCHING of a fingertip for a fraction of a second helps with my balance when I am challenged...

It may be harder for you guys to find a suitable balance challenge - but I can assure you if you try both the above you will find that ANY light touch (however brief) helps maintain balance....
post #16 of 26
Yes Nolo - 2 exercises posted in recent thread.... 1 is tapping(or touching will do) in balance challenged situation ...

The other is hyperextending fingers in balance challenged situation (much the most interesting one) - locking hands & PULLING them apart can give same result...

Also posted these both a while ago - similar topic - why use poles & what do they do....
Similarly ignored - with ONE exception
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by Coach13:
disski

Could you elaborate on this statement? I'm certainly not an instructor, just a relatively new skier who posts here with the intent of learning. I think the instructors who post here have been great and your assertion regarding them loathing the concept of discovery escapes me. This has not been my experience here to date, but maybe I don't understand what you mean by your statement.
Yep coach - this is partly just the result of 30C temperatures.... NO SNOW!

The rest is me getting pissed off because while every START of season a heap of people spout off in here about "student centred lessons" & wanting to learn more & be a better teacher.... (Hmmm is it only cynical me that notes that most of these posters only appear in the time when they might get STUDENTS - Nolo you are excepted from that you post all year round)
when you ask THEM to do some work (& maybe admit they do NOT know all the answers yet) there is a suddenly deathly silence....

As a "specialist" student in "how to learn balance" I get annoyed that these people swear interest - but have less interest than the aerobics & fitball instructors I find at the local sporting institute....
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
Yes Nolo - 2 exercises posted in recent thread.... 1 is tapping(or touching will do) in balance challenged situation ...

The other is hyperextending fingers in balance challenged situation (much the most interesting one) - locking hands & PULLING them apart can give same result...

Also posted these both a while ago - similar topic - why use poles & what do they do....
Similarly ignored - with ONE exception
Disski, both of these exercises have roots off the snow from the information I have. The simple balance exercises in the book "Astrofit" which is a consumer version of the US astronauts in space, fitness training regimen, all use touch of a finger or hand at the intermediate stage of the balance exercises. Touch works when proprioception fails. I would think the pole touch is just an extention of the finger or hand. Astronauts have serious visio-vestibular and propriocetion disturbance in space, along with muscle and bone degeration. This is another good read.

The second one involving the clasping of the fingers could be a variation of an exercise in the book "Brain Gym" called Hook ups. Hooks ups suggested uses are for self awareness skills and deepening and/or changing attidudes. This book is best read along with the book "Smart Moves". I'm atempting to integrate the infomation in both of these books into lessons this year, it's definetly a work in progress for me.

What your instructors did makes good sense to me. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] We instructors get caught up in the "if it ain't skiing, it ain't much" too easily.
post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Coach13:
disski

Could you elaborate on this statement? I'm certainly not an instructor, just a relatively new skier who posts here with the intent of learning. I think the instructors who post here have been great and your assertion regarding them loathing the concept of discovery escapes me. This has not been my experience here to date, but maybe I don't understand what you mean by your statement.
Yep coach - this is partly just the result of 30C temperatures.... NO SNOW!

The rest is me getting pissed off because while every START of season a heap of people spout off in here about "student centred lessons" & wanting to learn more & be a better teacher.... (Hmmm is it only cynical me that notes that most of these posters only appear in the time when they might get STUDENTS - Nolo you are excepted from that you post all year round)
when you ask THEM to do some work (& maybe admit they do NOT know all the answers yet) there is a suddenly deathly silence....

As a "specialist" student in "how to learn balance" I get annoyed that these people swear interest - but have less interest than the aerobics & fitball instructors I find at the local sporting institute....
</font>[/quote]disski - are you saying that every instructor on this forum has to respond to every one of your posts? In thread after thread this week, I have seen your disparaging remarks aimed at the instructor community in general. Is it not enough to just read your post and think a little about it?

[ December 18, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: epic ]
post #20 of 26
disski,

I do recall that last year at this time you mentioned the finger touch for balance, and I thought we PM'd a bit about it? Anyway, don't worry if you get no overt response as many of us are appropriators--we just take it and put it in our pockets without acknowledgment. It's frustrating only if you feel ownership, which generally is a misplaced feeling, because very little in skiing is truly original.

Ski teaching is an oral tradition, and although kinesthetics abound, it tends to be delivered orally as well.
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by Ric B:
Disski, both of these exercises have roots off the snow from the information I have. The simple balance exercises in the book "Astrofit" which is a consumer version of the US astronauts in space, fitness training regimen, all use touch of a finger or hand at the intermediate stage of the balance exercises. Touch works when proprioception fails. I would think the pole touch is just an extention of the finger or hand. Astronauts have serious visio-vestibular and propriocetion disturbance in space, along with muscle and bone degeration. This is another good read.

The second one involving the clasping of the fingers could be a variation of an exercise in the book "Brain Gym" called Hook ups. Hooks ups suggested uses are for self awareness skills and deepening and/or changing attidudes. This book is best read along with the book "Smart Moves". I'm atempting to integrate the infomation in both of these books into lessons this year, it's definetly a work in progress for me.

What your instructors did makes good sense to me. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] We instructors get caught up in the "if it ain't skiing, it ain't much" too easily.
Yes ric - first one is VERY well known in those that work on balance stuff...

The second is actually an example of how when one set of tendons is stretched hard the rest "prepare" to fire.... they are on red alert..... so balancing becomes easier because all those reflexes are set to go....

Yes - seems to be a lack of preparedness to try off-snow training.... The perception is those that don't ski have nothing to offer to skiers... the reality is different... I get help from so many people on balance improvement....
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by epic:
disski - are you saying that every instructor on this forum has to respond to every one of your posts? In thread after thread this week, I have seen your disparaging remarks aimed at the instructor community in general. Is it not enough to just read your post and think a little about it?
They are exercises - & both times I posted & left them for a bit....

Then asked for any comments.....

The second is NOT something people commonly understand (I had a wounded surgeon left in a ski lodge for me to 'play with' one week at the snow.... many coffee & wine sessions later....)
post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
disski,

I do recall that last year at this time you mentioned the finger touch for balance, and I thought we PM'd a bit about it? Anyway, don't worry if you get no overt response as many of us are appropriators--we just take it and put it in our pockets without acknowledgment. It's frustrating only if you feel ownership, which generally is a misplaced feeling, because very little in skiing is truly original.

Ski teaching is an oral tradition, and although kinesthetics abound, it tends to be delivered orally as well.
Ah so what did you "put in your pocket" about the second one?
What did it "teach you" & how will you incorporate that into ski teaching?
post #24 of 26
The second one is new to me--I don't read all the threads on this forum, y'know, and I figured I had all the input I needed on pole touch/plant, etc., so I skipped that particular thread.

The idea of hyperextending the fingers to improve balance is very interesting. Is that a reflex? (If anyone reading this has a baby learning to walk, can you tell us if he or she stretches his or her fingers while doing so?)
post #25 of 26
My friends one opens & closes his fists.... closes grabbing at things for help.... Hands go incessantly.....

I dunno about babies - the surgeon only told me why I balance better with stretched hands.... We had spent a few days with him injured & not skiing & running 'tests' on me.... he could NOT believe I really was missing proprioception....

He showed me some interesting things I do to compensate...
post #26 of 26
Disski, that makes sense to me. I guess you could say that when do that we're priming the pump so to speak. Waking up the neural networks, by using a part of the body to stimulate this network. According to Carla Hannaford, the visio vestibular network is connected into the same part of the brain responsible for sending responses to our body. Interesting.
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