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Boots damaged on the back

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

Hi everyone, need your opinion on this

 

I skied this year in France, Isola 2000 and Auron, great resorts, used Elan Flow 8.1 with integrated EL10.0 bindings and Dalbello Axion 7 boots, used the gear correctly, and noticed that the backside of the boot, that plastic part that the binding mounts on, is damaged, it's like the mouth of the binding cut into it, impressed in it. It is significant, not dramatic but if it keeps going deeper...

 

So, I'm thinking taht it could be 1) Soft plastic of the boot?

                                              2) Sharp mouth of the binding?

                                              3) Bindings not set up well (but, the guy in the store adjusted it...)

 

Thanks and good luck

 

 

 

 

 

post #2 of 28

Hi Codemaster, welcome to EpicSki

 

Could you post a photo of the back of the boot so we can see the damage.

 

Thanks

post #3 of 28

I was going to say what WTFH Said.  Its hard to tell what kind of damage has occurred from your description.

 

 

post #4 of 28

#3

 

We still want pix though.

post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 

Now I have them, and I figured it out you say boot sole mount point for that surface :boot sole mount point damage2

post #6 of 28

Not unusual, although bite marks usually occur when your heel isn't centered when stepping in.

post #7 of 28

My guess would be snow on the heel and you tried to jam them in before you cleared your sole.

post #8 of 28

looks to me like a combination of snow on the boot as GarryZ has said and possibly soft plastic on a relatively low spec boot

post #9 of 28

Is it possible to move rear part of binding one step forward?

Such "bite" marks appeared on my wife's boot when I took it and closed the bindings of my skis.

The difference of our boot size  is about 5-8 mm. I slided rear part one click forward and no more bites

 

post #10 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by irafar View Post

Is it possible to move rear part of binding one step forward?

Such "bite" marks appeared on my wife's boot when I took it and closed the bindings of my skis.

The difference of our boot size  is about 5-8 mm. I slided rear part one click forward and no more bites

 

and is the forward pressure still correct, or does she risk her legs

 

post #11 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post

 

and is the forward pressure still correct, or does she risk her legs

 

Sorry, but I have never taken skis and boots to boot fitter to adjust my bindings...

I know, you guys do a great job, but binding adjustment accuracy is very related to how good skier describes his/her abilities, and how much skier's legs can take...

 

Level of skiing may change very fast and no one knows how much can skier's leg take...

 

Boot stretching, insoles etc. It is precise science,I can't do it and I believe that a good boot fitter will do this job perfectly... Binding adjustment - I trust only in myself.

 

 

post #12 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by irafar View Post

 

Sorry, but I have never taken skis and boots to boot fitter to adjust my bindings...

I know, you guys do a great job, but binding adjustment accuracy is very related to how good skier describes his/her abilities, and how much skier's legs can take...

 

Level of skiing may change very fast and no one knows how much can skier's leg take...

 

You're talking about the release setting.

 

Forward pressure hasn't got anything to do with the release setting.  

 

post #13 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

 

You're talking about the release setting.

 

Forward pressure hasn't got anything to do with the release setting.  

 

And is important to set properly to have accurate release values.

post #14 of 28

irafar, 

 

What folks are saying is that the spring in the heel of a binding has to be compressed to an exact and specific point for the toe piece to pop out sideways correctly.  If you click your heel up too far your heel piece spring will be too tight pushing your boot too hard agsinst the toe and your toe piece won't eject correctly for the DIN settings on it.  it might not relaase at all, or more likely it will release prematurely, or when it shouldn't.

post #15 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by irafar View Post

 

Sorry, but I have never taken skis and boots to boot fitter to adjust my bindings...

I know, you guys do a great job, but binding adjustment accuracy is very related to how good skier describes his/her abilities, and how much skier's legs can take...

 

Level of skiing may change very fast and no one knows how much can skier's leg take...

 

Boot stretching, insoles etc. It is precise science,I can't do it and I believe that a good boot fitter will do this job perfectly... Binding adjustment - I trust only in myself.

 

 


as others have said, i am not talking about DIN settings or any of the other things you obviously think you know loads about (BTW i ran a very big rental operation for 9 years...i know how to adjust a binding)
 

 

the forward pressure ajustment may have been too tight or too lose which was causing the biting, equally it could have been fine but the biting was being caused by soemthing else entirely....if you have moved the binding by a notch then you may have now got it correct, or you may have adjusted it out of the safe zone, but as you know all about it i will leave you to adjust as you see fit.

 

 BTW do you know where the forward pressure indicator on the said binding is and when it is set correctly????

post #16 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

 

You're talking about the release setting.

 

Forward pressure hasn't got anything to do with the release setting.  

 


 

The proper forward release setting is of course important for proper release at a given DIN setting.

 

Were you just reminding the OP that forward release is a separate setting?

 

post #17 of 28

It was a response to irafar

post #18 of 28

Didn't know about forward pressure and never paid attention to it...

 

There is only one position for heel to fit.

No problems for Rossignol Axium and Fischer Railflex 2 so far. They open when they should and stay close when they should stay close.

 

post #19 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by irafar View Post

Didn't know about forward pressure and never paid attention to it...

 

 

 

hense peoples concern about the way you reacted

 

on the axium there is a forward pressure window, on the railfex binding it is a notched tab on some and an arrow indicator on others, it would be well worth you researching this as it has a pretty strong bearing on the release of the binding, you say everthing has worked without problems.... please check this as i am sure you want it to continue this way

 

post #20 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post

 

 

hense peoples concern about the way you reacted

 

on the axium there is a forward pressure window, on the railfex binding it is a notched tab on some and an arrow indicator on others, it would be well worth you researching this as it has a pretty strong bearing on the release of the binding, you say everthing has worked without problems.... please check this as i am sure you want it to continue this way

 


Thank you. I will check the pressure...

And... Yes, I want to continue this way, extra knowledge is useful always.

 

 

 

post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 

Thanks.

 

Well... the non centered position when stepping in...hardly, beacuse the only way to step in for me is to center the sole, I did that.

 

Snow...it's a bit odd..the snow will get there anyway, how should it cause some problem especially such as this.

 

But soft plastic...that's hard to say...my friends' boots, all intact on the sole, none problem similar.

 

About moving rear part step forward, you haven't agreed.

 

What do you say, by the amount of damage you now see, is it safe for me? Should I change the boots, ask a repair if possible?

 

Bindings are set properly by the op in the store. Setting appropriate to his skill I mean.

 

post #22 of 28

I think, no danger for you Bite depth is not more than just a couple percent of heel thickness. Unless binding is maximally closed (as without boot) and your boot starts to move... Haven't seen or heard that to happen

 

 

post #23 of 28

Codemaster,

 

as i suggested in my first post , i would say it is down to the soft low grade plastic on that model of boot, and either the binding adjustment (which you say was set up correctly in the store) and or some ice/snow/grit on the bottom of the boot when you have put it into the binding at some point, it will only take one episode to do this damage.

 

you could see if you can have the boot built up with ureathane glue, but it is not a permanent repair and as the plastic is so soft will probably not bond well, as for is it safe...would need to be put through a binding testing machine for a definative answer

post #24 of 28

Idea for repairing - take off a slice of plastic from the heel and place the same thickness metal plate. 2-4  skrews should keep that metal plate in place .

That should be a permanent solution...

post #25 of 28

I would fill the gouges with a little bit of 2 part epoxy if doing anything. P-tex might also work.

post #26 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by irafar View Post

I think, no danger for you Bite depth is not more than just a couple percent of heel thickness.

 

How many percent of heel thickness is the deflection in which the binding needs to figure out whether it is a release event or a retention event?

post #27 of 28

It gets dangerous if binding can't hold the boot anymore. And boot just slips out from binding without opening it...

 

The force of holding the boot in it's place is less than the force needed for release. Max force on spring is at the close/release point. Since bindings are set up for release point, there shouldn't be any extra risk of injuries caused by release force...

 

But a slight extra risk occurs because of time which needs binding to open (some extra mm for heel to move to release point). It means that force which can cause an injury affects your leg a tiny bit longer (milisecond or something like that).

 

But I don't know if release time is tested when setting up bindings at service... Is this release time equal to all bindings according to force? Is there any maximum allowed release time? (a 3D graph could be created with DIN, lenght to release point, affecting force on axis)

 

OK, it starts to sound like rocket science


Edit... 4D since we need one more axis for miliseconds


Edited by irafar - 6/18/2009 at 01:42 pm GMT
post #28 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by irafar View Post

 

But a slight extra risk occurs because of time which needs binding to open (some extra mm for heel to move to release point).

 

That is a concern, and some would argue with "slight".

 

Quote:

 

But I don't know if release time is tested when setting up bindings at service...

 

Not as such. 

 

But inconsistent release times would also likely show up as inconsistent release force.

Quote:
Is this release time equal to all bindings according to force?

 

No. But it is a design factor for each specific binding.

 

Quote:

OK, it starts to sound like rocket science

 

 

Now read the threads on KneeBindings.

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