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slalom turns - Page 4

post #91 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

No prob MR. 

 

For those who don't know who this new guy is, his screen name understates his credentials.  He's a very good coach, and one fast downhill racer.   

 

Hope you stick around, MR, and share your knowledge. 

 

 

www.YourSkiCoach.com


Thanks for the welcome, Rick.
 

 

I am seeing what you were referring to in this thread. Astra's 'not-a-coach', hottab, really appears to be looking for kudos rather than advice.

 

I enjoy the forums at Epic as I am always interested to learn as well as teach. I've been spending a lot of time in  More Retro memories????, sharing my past experiences as well as my humble ski collection. Boy those guys can collect. And they have some great stuff.

 

FWIW, I stumbled across EpicSki.com when I was Googled Hart Javelins after watching one of my favorite ski movies, The Incredible Ski, with Furrer and Staub.

 

I am still looking to the mountains for turns, Guyot and Fourth of July Bowl are still looking awesome. When it stops raining I'll be sailing on Dillon. WooHoo!

 

MR

post #92 of 118

Hottab,

Welcome, Good skiing! I like what you had to say but there are a few things that aren't making much sense to me. Hopefully you can comment on them.

  • I understand the weight and pressure transfer you described but I question why she posted an example of Stephan Eberharter doing exactly the opposite and why you are saying their skiing is similar. Look at the second frame Hottab, His inside ski is off the snow, which means he is balancing most of the weight and pressure on the outside ski. GS vs SL doesn't matter, you simply cannot have 60% of your weight and pressure on the inside ski when it's off the snow.
  • The tibias not being parallel is not a big thing like you said. Miller and Vonn use more knee, while other racers do not. It's an individual thing. What Astra is doing is quite different though. Compare your knees to hers in the photo you posted in post 83. From that point she internally rotates her inside leg while you keep yours externally rotated. Same comparison can be made with Eberharter. While she is trying to establish the new platform on the inside ski's big toe edge,you two are maintaining the little toe edge of that ski a little longer. It is this difference, along with her inside hip being so far aft that produces the wedge ab-stem she is using. The different body positions and edge usage are clear and suggesting that they are somehow similar is IMO inaccurate.
  • The strong edge set with the skis wedging is another oddity. Neither you, or Eberharter are using it, nor are either of you thrusting the body vertically before moving across the skis. The question is why she needs to use that move in the first place. My thought goes back to her rushing to start the new turn instead of keeping the inside leg working to finish the current turn. That simple change would draw her inside hip forward and eliminate the need to try to get forward and across the skis all at once. Want an example? Just look at the pictures you two have posted of Eberharter, he is not wedging, in fact his skis are diverging. For that to happen his inside hip cannot be as far aft as Astra's. In post 83 your inside hip is closer to where Eberharter's is and your inside knee is externally rotated like his. If she would just roll her inside knee out like yours and keep it there as long as you do, the aft wedge, edge set, and body huck would go away because it simply wouldn't be needed to perform the edge change.

 

Greg's work seems to be at the heart of this discussion but Astra's inside ski usage isn't what he describes, or demonstrates. It might be a language thing but her turns clearly demonstrate that she has interpreted Greg's inside ski usage differently than I and most of the other coaches here do.Having only read Gregs articles in English (here on epic) I don't remember seeing the wedge entry, or a wedge exit being part of that maneuver. Nor do I remember seeing the rush to establish the new turn by the internal rotation of the new outside leg while it's still the old inside leg. I suspect Astra's Q- angle may come into play here but her inside knee / leg usage and the staccato edge set to release the outside ski, ski says she has misunderstood the weight transfer idea to mean starting the new turn before finishing the current turn. Hottab if you could just get her to use her inside leg like you do most of her timing problems will go away. 

If you were looking for technical analysis it has been offered by more than a few of the coaches here. Having said the same thing as many way as I can I don't see the point of repeating myself again. So like the other coaches, I'm going to bow out of this discussion because I don't seem to be able to explain how the pictures don't support your conclusions.

Ski well and have fun...

 


Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/12/2009 at 04:34 pm GMT


Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/12/2009 at 04:43 pm GMT


Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/12/2009 at 05:09 pm GMT
post #93 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

 

hottab, really appears to be looking for kudos rather than advice.

 


 

Looking for kudos??

 

you posted that that turns should be smoother and CM shouldn' go up and down. I have my video where I worked on smooth SL turns and short legs between the turns. That was a goal for this run.

 

I placed my video as an example of that and asked what do you think.

 

Is it Looking for kudos??

post #94 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Hottab,

Welcome, 

Thanks JASP!!

 

Quote:


Look at the second frame Hottab, His inside ski is off the snow, which means he is balancing most of the weight and pressure on the outside ski. GS vs SL doesn't matter, you simply cannot have 60% of your weight and pressure on the inside ski when it's off the snow.

Only front part of inside ski is off the snow. He's applying pressure on the back of the inside ski by the end of the turn. Thats why the tip of the ski is in the air.

 

Quote:

The tibias not being parallel is not a big thing like you said. Miller and Vonn use more knee, while other racers do not. It's an individual thing. What Astra is doing is quite different though. Compare your knees to hers in the photo you posted in post 83. From that point she internally rotates her inside leg while you keep yours externally rotated. Same comparison can be made with Eberharter. While she is trying to establish the new platform on the inside ski's big toe edge,you two are maintaining the little toe edge of that ski a little longer. It is this difference, along with her inside hip being so far aft that produces the wedge ab-stem she is using. 

 I'd say it's her individual style.

 

and whats the ab-stem?

Quote:

The different body positions and edge usage are clear and suggesting that they are somehow similar is IMO inaccurate.

I'm talking about the whole picture. It looks similar for me. Of cource we are not wc skiers and there are a lot of mistakes, but in general her moove looks like Stefans.

 

 

Quote:

. If she would just roll her inside knee out like yours and keep it there as long as you do, the aft wedge, edge set, and body huck would go away because it simply wouldn't be needed to perform the edge change.

 We'll try.

 

 

Quote:

.Having only read Gregs articles in English (here on epic) I don't remember seeing the wedge entry, or a wedge exit being part of that maneuver.

http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/parallel_shins.htm

 

Quote:

Ski well and have fun...

 

Thanks!
 

post #95 of 118

Since you asked:

 

An abstem is created when the skier presses on the outside ski at turn completion causing the skis to form a wedge.  It most often occurs in the weight transfer that Astra-ZTL uses.

 

This also occurs in a  misguided attempt to "bend the ski".

 

Also, the Gurshman article says that the edges are to be at equal angles at turn exit. Otherwise the skis are on different arcs and one is usually skidding, which is slow.

 

Now I can go.

 

Good luck with the skiing.

 

 

 

 

post #96 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hottab View Post

 

Looking for kudos??

 

you posted that that turns should be smoother and CM shouldn't' go up and down. I have my video where I worked on smooth SL turns and short legs between the turns. That was a goal for this run.

 

I placed my video as an example of that and asked what do you think.

 

Is it Looking for kudos??


hottab,
 

 

My post, that you quoted and highlighted was directed specifically at Astra. After this thread started as a video critique of her skiing.

 

It is getting confusing with discussion about astra and discussion about hottab along with some dude Stefan , running interleaved in one thread. I am happy to provide commentary on your skiing but that might be better served in a new thread. While what I said, for astra, was fairly generic it was focused at her skiing, not yours. The two of you are completely different and need different, separate, commentary. The goals are the same, but the paths are different.

 

If anyone else is as confused as me with the back and forth of this thread or has a recommendation on protocol, please help me out. This is my first time in Ski Technique & Analysis but it would seem appropriate to have a separate thread for each individual's critique.

 

As to looking for kudos, I may have been off base. My apologies. I've said the wrong thing plenty of times in this thread.  I'm used to coaching in an interactive arena. Video-forum coaching is new to me.

 

I'll remark on your video (http://video.mail.ru/mail/7445029/1/7.html), but, please give thought to starting a separate thread. I can't tell who is talking about whom in this one.

 

Your skiing is good. For the most part I would say you acheived your goal for the run.

 

You maintain good upper body position and fairly parallel shafts. Hips maintain a fairly constant distance from the snow at all times which is good. You might try to activate your inside knee more, rolling it to the inside of the turn a little more. You appear to have a stronger right footed turn than a left footed one. Try to get the same feel with the left footed turns as your right footed ones. The left footed turns end up on the inside ski fairly often. It is hard to tell from the video as you are only 1 cm tall; please show your videographer how to zoom in and out. From the video it is hard to see your fore/aft balance, although I think it is more aft than it should be, hence being on the inside ski and having the outside ski diverge a number of times. Be more against the front of your boot. If your snow conditions are too grabby, detune the tips a bit more to compensate for how much more turny they will be when you get further forward on the ski. Video from the side would be useful in this regard as it will show your fore/aft position on the skis.

 

Have you ever run gates? Do you wish to? If so, you would need to deal a bit more with your hands as you need to be blocking. Regardless, your hands are going up and down quite a bit and have a direct affect on your balance and your skis. Shorter poles would help with that. As the vertical height of your hands off the snow is lower than in a recreational stance, you need to adjust the poles accordingly. As you aren't in gates for the video, just try holding the poles lower down the shaft in 2 - 3 cm increments until your hands are more calm. Find the place that works and consider cutting your poles to size.

 

In priority:

 

  • start a new thread for yourself
  • find the zoom on your camera and use it; you should fill half the frame, vertically, at all times 
  • relax your entire body; you need to be strong, but not mechanical
  • fore/aft balance; move your hips down the hill
  • initiate more with the inside knee; failure to do so contributes to A-frame and too much pressure on the inside leg
  • make your left footed turns as strong as your right footed ones; if your lack of symmetry is due to injuries or physical restrictions this may be difficult
  • calm your hands

 

Only work on one thing at a time. Progress to the next item when you have made progress on the first and it is intuitive. Its hard enough skiing without making your brain consciously focus on too many things.

 

Good luck,

 

MR

post #97 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

 


 

 

tdk6, you think that the turn ends and begins at the point of edge change; where the ski crosses the fall line in the diagram.

 

No. I just asked because I thaught thats what BigE ment. Anyway, you are perfectly right when you mention linked turns. Thats in the line of how I think. If you dont link turns you will not have any float and you need float to be able to retract your feet at transition and move your CoM across your skis, down the hill and into the new turn without being caught in the back seat. This is the most overlooked issue in modern skiing IMHO. You will not find many pointing out the importance of linking turns. Thats what they are doing when they ski but when they explain it they start out with "start of trun" and end with "end of turn". I think more in the line of "start of your run" and "end of your run". IMO the transition is a hazy gray zone with many missconseptions in ski instruction.

 

I know that the relese of the turn results in CoM parting with the path of the skis but that is not really true. This because if the skis were not turning the CoM would not move across the skis. Like justanotherskipro pointed out earlier. So skis are turning but CoM is not. Actually it is but at a different turning rate. If I was nitpicking I would claim that the skis and the CoM are never turning together. Check out the divergence thread for more info on the subject.

 

BTW mastersracer, nice graph .

post #98 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

No. I just asked because I thaught thats what BigE ment.

 

Gotcha. I like to restate things because I don't alway get them right the first time. ;o)

 

With the new skis, they pretty much have to be on edge or you end up like me (twice) with torn ACLs. The modern ski, when flat is very twitchy. It needs a little edge to maintain some consistent direction.

 

My ACL injuries resulted from an unweighted, downhill, ski deciding which way it wanted to go without input from me. In both cases they did a quick left then right pivoting action, and my ACL was cut in two quickly and cleanly. BTW, I had both rebuilt with patellar tendons. Almost like new. I'm lucky to still have happy, if not healthy, cartilidge.

 

I may just put that little diagram in my wallet to use for a visual on the hill. I find myself drawing it in the snow over and over. I'm glad you thought it was useful.

 

MR

post #99 of 118

O.K. one last post hottab,

Astra's style? She's athletic but totally undisciplined. Especially in the short video I keep mentioning. those same unrefined elements are present in the rest of her skiing but instead of taking that detailed feedback as a blueprint for positive change, you dismiss it as irrelevent. Then she posts four frames of a world class racer and claims she is skiing like him. I went on to detail the differences only to have you dismiss those details as well.  Expert level skiing is all about the details and quite honestly, ignoring the details will limit how much she will learn from this point forward.

It might be a bit harsh to say this but I feel it needs to be said. Astra is good for her experience but why not let that be enough? She does not and probably never will ski like Eberharter. Not many skiers will ever ski that well, myself included. So in my opinion it's not fair to fill a new skier's head with that idea, or the promise that they will ever ski that well. Nor is it fair to suggest that after three years she is capable of skiing anything like a man who has has committed a lifetime to the hard work and training it takes to ski on the world cup curcuit.

Ski well and have fun but please stop fishing for compliments and claiming to ski like the world cuppers.

 

post #100 of 118

This quote  from Gurshman's posted link makes me wonder how much they understand Gurshman's intention

 

 

 

"The natural reaction of skier in this situation is to lean on the practically flat inside ski, which is conveniently” located under the skier’s center of mass. However, to effectively complete the turn, the skier needs to achieve the position with both skis equally edged. In order to do that skier’s body needs to move inside of the turn so the skis will end up on the side of the body with the projection of CM being well inside the arc of the turn. In this example, which can be used as a generic template for everyone trying to grasp shin matching element of technique, the only way I could achieve it is this. I keep most of the pressure on the outside ski (about 70-80%) while continuing to move my body inside the turn by bending the inside knee and gradually moving it inside towards the center of the turn as demonstrated in this picture:

                    It is very important to begin the movement of the inside knee at least in the second phase of the turn when in the fall line. At the same time, more weight transfers onto the inside ski. Despite the fact that the parallel shin position is not fully achieved at this point, we can see in the picture that the shovel of the my inside ski is engaged and  starting to carve. The radius of this arc is significantly larger than the radius of the arc being drawn by the outside ski. In order to reduce the difference in radiuses of the arcs, I needs to continue moving the inside knee to increase the edge angle of the inside ski as demonstrated in this picture."

 

 

He describes a much different turn than what is being understood. Outside dominant, working the inside ski  and creating equal edge angles early with extension  farther into the turn to support a higher edge angle.

 

post #101 of 118

 .. and don't forget to exit with equal edge angles.

 

GarryZ, stop posting sensible stuff!

 

Funny thing is that even with Gurshman's example I think his inside ski is too much under the body.

 

Sometimes, that's the only video you have.....

post #102 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by astra-ZTL View Post

to BigE and just anotherskipro:

 

This sequence made from this video

http://photofile.name/users/a_str_a/video/v842126e462/view/ Left turn from 0:07 till 0:10

 

 

 

There is no drift, slide , snow spray off my tails, rederection of the skis. there is two clean tracks on the snow, please look in the video.

 

 Is it a problem?

 Of cource he is more balanced. It's Stefan Eberharter sequince. 

Im going to back you up here. Your turns are not drifted or skidded. Im not too sure about if there are two clean tracks but you are carving on your outside ski all through out the turn and matching with your inside ski most of the time. In your photo sequence it apperas to be some pivot in your ski traks but that is only because the frames are made from a moving camera and placed probably with a bit of separation. Anyway, BigE and others have given you good advice and matching your shins and working on a better relese followed by a retraction transition should have you busy for years to come. You can allways improve. Even WC skiers practise to improve. I was just at a coaching seminar where a study was made that showed that the top 10 skiers are skiing more matched in their movements than the 10-20 top skiers.

 

BTW, in my video coaching I usually ask the people I ski with to ski past me the exact same way they skied at approach. As they pass I keep the camera rolling and find the trax. Ski along them and have living proofe of trax in the snow. Also, skiing behind the skier and filming the trax gives me a very exact view of when skis are carving and when not. The snow flying and spraying from your skis is not an indication of skidding. It could be but snow is soft and if you are really pushing yourself and working your skis there will be snow flying. The guy behind has the same snow spray. And besides, it would not be polite to tell you you are skidding . Good skiing, keep it up.

 

post #103 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

 

 

Gotcha. I like to restate things because I don't alway get them right the first time. ;o)

 

With the new skis, they pretty much have to be on edge or you end up like me (twice) with torn ACLs. The modern ski, when flat is very twitchy. It needs a little edge to maintain some consistent direction.

 

My ACL injuries resulted from an unweighted, downhill, ski deciding which way it wanted to go without input from me. In both cases they did a quick left then right pivoting action, and my ACL was cut in two quickly and cleanly. BTW, I had both rebuilt with patellar tendons. Almost like new. I'm lucky to still have happy, if not healthy, cartilidge.

 

I may just put that little diagram in my wallet to use for a visual on the hill. I find myself drawing it in the snow over and over. I'm glad you thought it was useful.

 

MR

My condolences regarding your ACL but good that you are recovered. I too had a very close ACL tearing experiance at a race camp where we after two days of GS moved to SL skis and all of a sudden my left outside ski made a move on me. I was lucky I managed to move with the ski and make a recovery move but it was a close encounter.

 

T

 

post #104 of 118

tdk6,

 

Do you really think that's arc to arc skiing? I'm amazed.

 

post #105 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post

tdk6,

 

Do you really think that's arc to arc skiing? I'm amazed.

 

I don't kow what TDK sees, but if you are referring to the video posted by astra in TDK's post 102, I can clearly see the tails of the skis being slid on over into position in the first part of the turns, not pure-arc carving at all.  Goes for both skiers. 

 

Carving arc-to-arc means  arcing all parts of all turns with every part of the ski and no part of the ski ever moving in a direction that is not parallel to its edge.

 

 

post #106 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 

I don't kow what TDK sees, but if you are referring to the video posted by astra in TDK's post 102, I can clearly see the tails of the skis being slid on over into position in the first part of the turns, not pure-arc carving at all.  Goes for both skiers. 

 

Carving arc-to-arc means  arcing all parts of all turns with every part of the ski and no part of the ski ever moving in a direction that is not parallel to its edge.

 

 

LOL guys. No offence, but can you both post some of your arc to arc skiing? I dont doubt for a second that she cannot ski arc to arc. But let me go back and check.... I was not there to check on her traxs or the snowconditions but Im sticking to what I said earlier. In that one turn to the right at the top I can see her struggling for traction but her movements are not skidding movements. I see edge engagement at the top of the turn in the high C. Did OP get us a snow report earlier in this thread?

post #107 of 118

Do you have somewhere in epic a video gallery with runs of people who write here in technic?

post #108 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hottab View Post

Do you have somewhere in epic a video gallery with runs of people who write here in technic?



http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/36802/post-videos-of-your-skiing-for-analysis-threads

 

post #109 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

LOL guys. No offence, but can you both post some of your arc to arc skiing?

 

Max? Is that you?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

I was not there to check on her traxs or the snowconditions but Im sticking to what I said earlier. In that one turn to the right at the top I can see her struggling for traction but her movements are not skidding movements. I see edge engagement at the top of the turn in the high C. Did OP get us a snow report earlier in this thread?

 

Guess not .

 

Yes, it would be good to post video, but I don't have any, and I'm not going to waste precious skiing time getting any either. 

 

However this thread is not about my skiing.  In fact it's not really about arc-to-arc skiing either, but since BIG E pointed it out, I thought I would add my two cents. 

 

Looks to me like the movement pattern is similar to the ones developed by this learning system, not the hard edge set at the beginning of the vids, just a vestigial sliding the heel over in transition while the tips are carving and the tail edge hasn't quite set yet.   It's got nothing to do with my skiing; it's just what's on the video.

 

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/80061/mesmerizing-hungarian-ski-instruction-videos

 

Of course I would feel guilty hijacking the thread, but she already has all the info she needs (see for example post #35   ).

post #110 of 118

 

Non!  to the exclusion of TDK.

 



 

post #111 of 118

Actually there are quite a few videos of people who post in this  forum, just not in this particular thread, yet.

post #112 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 In fact it's not really about arc-to-arc skiing either, but since BIG E pointed it out, I thought I would add my two cents. 

 

Looks to me like the movement pattern is similar to the ones developed by this learning system, not the hard edge set at the beginning of the vids, just a vestigial sliding the heel over in transition while the tips are carving and the tail edge hasn't quite set yet.   It's got nothing to do with my skiing; it's just what's on the video.

 

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/80061/mesmerizing-hungarian-ski-instruction-videos

 

 movement pattern in this video not even close to the modern racing technic.
 

post #113 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hottab View Post

 

 movement pattern in this video not even close to the modern racing technic.
 

Agreed.   Feel free to comment on the video in that thread.

 

Hottab,

Why not start your own thread.  I'm sure the ski-instructor folks (and others ;) )here would be glad to give you some pointers in adapting to modern technique.

post #114 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post

This quote  from Gurshman's posted link makes me wonder how much they understand Gurshman's intention

Please read it one more time and if possible right form the begining.

 

" even the elite racers are not able to start the turn with the shins in parallel position. There can be a number of reasons for this. For example:

  • Constantly trying to get the outside ski as far as possible to the side out from under the body in order to get it on the right line can result in a slight A-frame.
  • Possibly there is an insufficient projection of racer’s center of mass forward and over the skis at the moment of beginning of the new turn (i.e., a poor re-centering after the previous turn).
  • Sometimes the cause of A-framing can simply be low speed, which does not allow starting the turn by inclination with the parallel shins. " (GG)

 

 

 

 

Look at the shins between the turns. Very often they are not parallel.

 

As I told before that IMO , parralel shins in the fall line are more important than parallel shins in connection of the turns.

 

But of cource it's still a mistake.

 

 

 

Quote:

He describes a much different turn than what is being understood. Outside dominant, working the inside ski  and creating equal edge angles early with extension  farther into the turn to support a higher edge angle

 Understood by whom?

 

That exactly what we are trying to do on the snow. Outside dominant till the fall line than slowly pressure goes to inside ski. And finish the turn with more pressure on inside ski,

 

Happens not very often yet. But we work on it.

 

 

 



 

post #115 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

Actually there are quite a few videos of people who post in this  forum,

Could you drop me a link where i can look at them?

 

post #116 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hottab View Post

 

Could you drop me a link where i can look at them?

 

Link in my post 108.  Go to the last page and work backwards; the videos are not kept up to date and some of the older links are gone bad, but that is the official place for posting video of your skiing, unless you are asking to have it analysed.

post #117 of 118

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 

Link in my post 108.  Go to the last page and work backwards; the videos are not kept up to date and some of the older links are gone bad, but that is the official place for posting video of your skiing, unless you are asking to have it analysed.

Thanks again. There are some strong guys (j3rry, bolter) but no bigguys from tech who are writing here.

 

to: Rick, BigE, JUSP.

 

Where I can find samples of your skiing?
 

post #118 of 118

Ghost, you should not take me too seriously but you know me by now I hope . But you go straigt and I turn so which one of us should be handing out advice on turning .

 

Anyway, all my links that Ive posted of my skiing on topeverything.com (great site) have been scrapped because hosting company gone offline (total bummer). New ones will be up and running on vimeo or youtube according to demand.

 

BTW, are you guys sure the OP did not carve not one turn... just asking....

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