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video for your critique 2-24-04

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Video Clip

Northstar resort on "almost blue" run.
post #2 of 21
So, nobody's working on my easyski turns yet. the video sucks, but I thought I'd test the new camera download process and see how the process to epic works. If nobody else wants to, I'll take a shot a this short segment of turns.
looks like good use of ski design, nice angles and tracking of the inside ski. nice progessively higher edge angles, and relaxed movement.

seems the turn to the right that the right ski sneaks out from under the body a bit far to have good weight on it in the first few turns. The left leg when it's the inside ski seems to lack the accuracy of the the other side in these turns as well.

What do you see?
post #3 of 21
First of all I'm not an Instructor, as everyone here knows. But, it looks like you are working way too hard at something that is easy. Makes me tired just looking at the video.

Am I wrong or do you make turns to the left easier than to the right?
post #4 of 21
thanks for the comment lars.
the run is a bit off camber, but i actually like the turns to the right. The right inside ski seems to work more accurately to me.

I don't consider it working, but playing. I could just go straight or ride a passive ski, but I like to make the ski work. I feel one of the beauties of our new toys is that they provide so much excitement all by themselves. We don't need steeps, cliff or wild snow, we can just tip em way over and dance with the forces.
I also feel practicing the movements in moderate terrain increases your accuracy and proficiency in the challenging terrain.

I hope that didn't sound like I was defending myself. I want to accept any critique constructively and not defensively.

Cheers, wade
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Holiday:

seems the turn to the right that the right ski sneaks out from under the body a bit far to have good weight on it in the first few turns. The left leg when it's the inside ski seems to lack the accuracy of the the other side in these turns as well.

What do you see?
Nice turns!

Not an instructor either, but I see the same thing you do. Looks to me like the inside ski is moving forward on both sides ...IMO. I struggle with this too. Have you tried Weems "three exagerations" from the DLF thread?
post #6 of 21
I'll take a crack at cha Wade. First off this is over the level III standard even though the turns are not brough across the fall line very far.

Here is what I see. You are using cross under turns and not effectively sucking the skis back under you prior to turn initiation. Not to many people have the functional tension (athleticism) to do that. Because you do not get the skis back under you're hips, you are forced to move more lateral and drop the inside hip a bit.

You are moving to agressively inside and involving some hip movements that do not orginiate at the feet. I suspect this might disappear when you are skiing for yourself instead of the camera.

The agressive move combined with dropping the hips back and inside causes the ski stance to widen at the fall line and you to end up on the inside ski a bit.

Crossover is a much stronger initiation for less than go getter athletic types like me. When you move laterally inside and back you put your ACL at much higher risk. Better to move progressively move the hips forward and over the feet using a pedaling action for flexion/extension in the last third of the turn.

You do understand we are getting pretty picky here. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #7 of 21
Why do people subject themselves to a critique by thousands?

I see a great many good things. What I find most interesting is I think the turns get better as they progress. The further down the hill you go the more I like the turns.

The Good

#1 Parallel shafts with nice inside leg tipping.
#2 Rythm
#3 Level shoulders
#4 Pretty good pole swing/plant

I have a theory that many skiers have become so focused on tipping modern skis that they have lost some "steering" in carved turns along with flexion/extension. Just when turns are getting good they are abandonned.

I lead a clinic at our tiny mountain today and came up with an idea for short radius turns. Imagine skiing down a hallway that is ten feet wide and try to run the tips of your skis through both walls as you ski down the hallway. Try to run the skis through the drywall at a 90 degree angle.

I want to add many of the suggestions that I am going to put forth are based upon video Bob Barnes has made of my turns and are things I'm trying to fix in my skiing.

I see the first two or three turns having a lot of up/down movement. I guess I'd like to see you begin the sequence by merely tipping.

It looks like you could manage the energy in your skis just a tad better. Let the pressure build, allow the skis to move you laterally and do a little less retraction. Allow the turn shape to evolve a little more.

I've been working to get my skis a little further away from my COG. This really seems to allow me to add turn shape. I try to get a very long outside leg.

Again, this is great skiing. It reminds me of a claim made by a famous former Bear who said his skiing was better than 97% of the skiing population.

These turns meet that standard. His turns? I'll leave that alone.

P.S.

PK aka Scuzzah.....go ahead and fire off an e-mail or post something at that forum that has a rip snorting fifty members.
post #8 of 21
Thanks Pierre,
I was thinking I was defensive early and nobody wanted to work the series. I'm glad you responded because I've been thinking about some of the ideas you've been playing with and wondering how they could play out in my skiing.

I understand your analysis. I do feel like I want to get the inside quick and you are right that I'm moving there too quick and losing the power of progressively tilting from foot, ankle, knee, and up. I especially end up on the inside for a moment on the right turn and I'm not fond of the asymetry between the sides. (ps, do you like one side more than the other?)

I'm not as sure about the crossover just because of timing. What is your secret to keeping up with the arcing ski and using crossover. It seems to take so much longer that it's tough to get right on it.

A couple of ideas for you or others to assist me with here. I'm making way too many of these moderate groomer turns these days with a couple of big dollar, no adrenalin or fear clients and I want to find sequences that allow me to enjoy the forces of the pure carved rail and move along more slowly. I've had moments of it but it is elusive. I don't want to change skis (these are all mt mid fats 77mm under foot) and I'm not talking about really long uphill finishes using lots of space. I know the movements are available from skiing with a demo team buddy a year ago and I've seen others pull off the speed I want. Your posts recently lead me to believe you could have a direction for me. You're comment about the quick pull back could be a key. I'm cocking the inside ski back to engage it, but if I actively pull both better, I might be able to bend the shovels sooner and get across the hill more, earlier, which would be a recipe for slower pure rails.

Anyway, not to be narcissistic(sp?) here, I don't get to ski with a school or anything like it anymore, so I don't get to benefit from the feedback of other instructors too much. At the rare time when I ski with Eric d and amsp, it's 99% off piste and at the moment i'd like more ideas for improving this turn.

Until the next time...Thanks for the tips.

Wade
post #9 of 21
Rusty,
I was writing while yours came in. Another good reply after I thought the thread was dead. Thank you!

I follow your critique and hear your constructive ideas. Why open it up? As I mentioned above, I've got skills, but as a mainly solo guy these days I don't enjoy the benefits a school provides. Also as I've stated, epic is now my tech talk, teck clinic and i still enjoy it.

I also believe in steering (don't let eric d read this) and teach a full range of skiing from pivot slips and short swing impact turns to pure carves, but right now in my own skiing my focus is on tweaking this purely railed version.

I like the drywall image and will play with it tomorrow. I hear your idea of letting the shape develope more naturally but I'm not sure if will move me toward the slower rounder pure rail (seems it would become longer and use significantly more real estate?)

Thanks for the tips.

wade
post #10 of 21
I'm amazed when I read a 77mm waist. Those turns are very good.

Bob showed me something neat last year. It is tough to explain, however I'll try.

While standing on two skis lift one ski six inches off the ground. Now with the ski that is in the air tip your knee laterally. Note how this causes the ski tip to rotate laterally (outward).

My point is as follows. There are rotary MOVEMENTS, ie., tipping the inside leg as described above, in all turns, even a "pure carved" turn. Tipping the leg rotates the femur.

I guess when I say "steering" I don't want it to be misconstrued that there is any deviation from a carve.

I just know that given the right snow conditions, as well as right pitch, when my short radius turns are "good" I feel I'm tipping and at the very last moment, steering my inside femur in a manner akin to a pivot slip. A subsequent look back at my tracks, however, does not show any evidence of the skis "breaking loose".
post #11 of 21
Quote:
I was thinking I was defensive early and nobody wanted to work the series. I'm glad you responded because I've been thinking about some of the ideas you've been playing with and wondering how they could play out in my skiing.
Quote:
I'm not as sure about the crossover just because of timing. What is your secret to keeping up with the arcing ski and using crossover. It seems to take so much longer that it's tough to get right on it.
Quote:
and I want to find sequences that allow me to enjoy the forces of the pure carved rail and move along more slowly.
Ahh, the elusive slow carve that feels powerful. You look like you are about where I was a year ago. Trying more forward motion and power into the finish of the turn to bring the skis further across and check speed. I was never sucessful with that approach. I could not consistently bring the skis more than about 60 degrees across the fall line.

I also was never sucessful with a cross under bringing the skis more than about 60 degrees across the fall line. There is simply not enough dyanmics left at the end of a slow carved turn to affect a decent cross under.

I had to do things different. First I had to learn a decent cross over using an active inside and outside leg. A pedalling action is used for flexion and extension to prevent the pop up associated with the cross over.

Second, I had to learn how to actively dosiflex by progressively lifting my feet in the finish of the turn. This is easier said than made permanent.

Third I had to learn to relax a bit at neutral, allow both ankles to flex naturally and just tilt forward like I was getting off the chair lift to keep up with my skis. I do this progressively all the way to the fall line. At the same time I tip only at the ankles and continue to flex the new inside ankle forward collapsing the new inside leg.

Four, I have had to really learn how to work from my feet up all the way through the turn instead of mostly at initiation. I had that pull to the inside, just like you have and if you read my recent posts, still do a bit at the very finish of the turn.

All this adds up to very accurate slow turns finished well across the fall line. I worked on much of this in traverses and short round open parallel turns. The open parallel will not hide all the crap going on from the feet up like a carve will. I would not have guessed that backing off driving into the finish was part of the equation but it is.

Really the key to super finished turns is maintaining a very good athletic stance so that you can actively guide you're feet to the finish at the same time you are moving across the skis. You cannot do that with hip/knee movements towards the inside or cross under.

The results in my railed carving is a much tighter, slower carved turn, finished to near 90 degrees across the fall line. With the cross over, you feel as if the G forces are flowing from apex to apex right through the turn transition. Holding that feeling allows me to tighten the turns and increase the G forces all without gaining to much speed, or using up more real estate. That feeling is also very addictive but fades quickly in power and feel with movements that start above the feet, like moving a knee. That is why I am so determined to take the last little bit out of my skiing. The real feeling of power only comes when you are close to ideal stance and skeletal stacking. This feeling of power is those fleeting moments you feel and I can only describe it as absolute power.

Incedently I am on a soft telemark ski that is 76mm under foot and mostly on midwest hard pack.
post #12 of 21
Thanks gentlemen,
Rusty, you are absolutely right about the inside leg creating the steering. I play with this idea in all turns, but less (maybe too much less) in carved turns. Incidently, that is one of reasons I like the inside ski focus of Eric D's teaching. The release, the recentering(if needed), the steering, and the edgeing focus all come from one place (that inside foot). So, today I'll add a bit more to the rails and see what that creates.

Pierre, I'm still digesting your ideas and will continue to while I work with a client this morning form 9 to 12. I should get plenty of opportunity to attempt to Feel what your ideas entail.

Thanks again, and Make it great day!
Wade
post #13 of 21
Holiday,


Nice short radius turns my man! I like the movement from the hips down laterally with both legs moving simultaneous. The rhythm is outstanding while turning. It also looks like in this clip that you are getting up on the edges early, IMHO, a good thing. Great job! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

These are some things that I believe you could work on in your skiing. You are allowing the hips to move back through the turns, and this leaves you somewhat countered in both the right and left turn.
Also because of being back at the end of the turn, there is some movement up to start the new turn. This is minimal though.

When making your left turn, you are letting the right leg drift back somewhat. In this turn, I see more counter than in the right turn and I would believe that there is more tip lead in the left turn also. You may be finding that in the left turn because the ski goes back, that the edge breaks away and some skidding occurs.


Here are a few of the things that, IMHO, might help you become a better skier than you already are.

Try standing taller and keep your hips over your feet at all times. Don’t let them drift back while pressuring the skis. This, IMHO, will reduce the little vertical movement that you have. By standing taller, this will help you to remain squarer to the skis and help to do away with the counter that develops through your turn. You will have to be active to do this by pulling the inside ski back and pushing the outside ski forward at the same time for awhile until you get use to the stance and skiing like this. Try and keep both skis moving forward, especially the right ski. Don’t let it lag behind.


Try and keep the width of the legs the same as much as possible. Work at keeping them hip width apart. When making the left turn, the width is good. But when going right, you are allowing them to come together. I see in this clip that there may be some “A” framing in the right turn. Try and get your right leg more involved by tipping the boot and leg more to the inside through your right turn. Keep the shins in contact with the tongue of the boot as much as possible. Again, this will help with standing taller.


I would also like to see an effort in controlling the speed in the turn by coming across the hill a bit more. It looks like there is acceleration pretty much on every turn. If this is what you where working on, Great job! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Holiday, All in all, you are an accomplished skier. It looks like you’ve been at it for sometime. For me, its fun doing MA’s on upper level skiers. It really trains one’s eye for the little thing that someone at your caliber needs to work on. I think if you take some of these ideas out on the hill and work on them, you will be pleasantly rewarded.

Thanks for the opportunity to do the MA. : ----------------- Wigs
post #14 of 21
Hi wigs,
thanks for the thoughts,
my first reaction was, good critique sandwich. (pos.-constuctive-pos.)You started with a light feel and positive comments. Added some constructive coaching and finished with a nice compliment and summary. Sign of a good coach!

I liked your analysis of my asymetry and their causes. I also agree with the taller idea. I tend to ski very flexed and will work on that. I was also struck that you like the left turn best, while I like the right. I see mostly parrallel tibias but feel both skis are more angled under me on that side while on the left, I end up leaning on the inside ski a couple of times. Neither is skidding at all in this series, though. I understand your reasoning on that, but in this series in this terrain, these were pure rails with both feet throughout.

I played with some of rusty's and pierre's ideas and haven't found a new place yet (although if I dont' buckle my boot tops I feel some of pierre's heavily flexed inside ankle and have sent my ski tips through rusty's drywall quite a few times today), but i'm experimenting and will experiment with your feedback as well. you and pierre both see me as back, which (not to be defensive) i'm not sure about. I'm heavily flexed in my boots and never felt back in this series. I think it could be the low position. I often feel like I'm too far forward and i've been playing with moving back at times.

anyway, thanks for the feedback and i'll play with it on the hill. I recognize how difficult it is to work around good skiers self perceptions, so I recognize these in myself and am working to listen clearly.

Cheers, Wade
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
Why do people subject themselves to a critique by thousands?
Because they are more courageous than most of us?
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
Why do people subject themselves to a critique by thousands?
Because they are more courageous than most of us? </font>[/quote]or, their desire to learn/improve is stronger than the unease felt at having your images critiqued! (that'd be my reason)
post #17 of 21
Me too Gonz....

I really hate watching video of me.... but I know it always helps so much I sort of tolerate being filmed now....

I'd post if we got organised to shoot some again.... hopefully next season
post #18 of 21
Holiday,

I know what you mean when you say you don't feel like your back. I have gone through the same thing. When I first started playing with the stance I'm in now, I felt like I was going to fall over the front of the skis. But now I am use to it and have to say it has made improvements in my skiing. Keep us posted on the progress.----Wigs
post #19 of 21
The position of the poles dragging well behind your heels is a clear indication that you are back. You may not feel off balance -- that's already recovery territory -- but I must agree, you are back.

A suggested drill is to ski with the poles dragging beside your feet at all times. This ensures shoulders remain level, and should remove the up/down motions entirely. You'll be retracting/flexing your knees and rolling onto the new edges as the skis pass under. It's skiing with the legs.

Re-read Pierre's slow carve technique suggestions. They are perfect. His suggestion of backing off at the finish is bang on, but beware: don't back off too much, the back seat is not all that far away.

Good luck!
post #20 of 21
OK, these last posts are interesting.
am i courgagous? don't know. is the learning more important than the negatives of the critique? if learning can happen, absolutely.

Also from above, I've read these last couple and my first response was quite defensive, not couragous or coachable. unambiguously telling me i'm out of balance and recovering based on this unclear footage is distracting. this is big ski bent into a deep deep arc with no slippage and retracted directly to another clean carving pair of edges. i don't know if that's possible from some out of balance postion. As I said, I'm looking for another set of movements, but let's not get carried away with the negative.

Anyway,
I've been out on the hill a few days and playing with one footed carved series,(10 right foot, 10 left foot) and that has tuned me more accurately back into the ankle. I've been keeping my boot tops quiet loose, pierre, based on what I visualized as your movements in tele boots and feelings i've felt in my AT boots with the ability to get more out of the inside ankle and that seems to get me across the hill quicker in the carve without taking up too much more room. I've also played with the taller idea, but it doesn't move me toward my new intention. The shovel over reacts and the tail wants to go away.

A question pierre. what is your lift? with this looser boot and heavily dorsiflexed inside ankle, I'm booting out quite a bit on that side. I had funny thing happen today on that topic. I had my buckles hooked in to the teeth but not closed and it hit the snow in the middle of turn.It dug in, stopped the ski and after I recovered, the boot was buckled.

anyway, another good day.

wade
post #21 of 21
Wade my lift isn't over 20mm. Yah gotta get off that good snow and get onto some ice. That'll cure the boot out. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Back off and get the movements nailed in an open parallel on blue terrain and then increase the edge.

Weather report for tommorrow is high wind warning, high 75 deg with severe T storms. That oughta do it for our season.
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