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Poe Touch Vs. Pole Plant - Page 3

post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
OK if we are going to talk about whether touching a pole down can help the answer is YES!!!!

I prefer to ski poleless most of the time - as long as I am able to stretch my fingers to the point that they hurt...

WHY???? (Try doing something that REALLY is hard for you balance wise then try it again with fingers locked pulling against each other or with super stretched hands)

However from other balance learning I know how much the simple TOUCHING of a fingertip for a fraction of a second helps with my balance when I am challenged...

It may be harder for you guys to find a suitable balance challenge - but I can assure you if you try both the above you will find that ANY light touch (however brief) helps maintain balance....

I'll leave the explanation of the hand stretch until someone tries it (keetov you don't count - you're the only one tried it last time)

The only reason I don't like poles is that I don't (YET) have the movement control to make using them easy & they distract me from what my feet are doing....
Here iy is Nolo.... latest version that is
post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Well now disski that hand stretching stuff does appear to work. Now for the light tap. Are you tapping yourself or something nearby?
Pierre - have you worked out WHY the hand stretching works yet?
post #63 of 86
Well disski I tried it yesterday on telemark skis backwards on one foot. It seems to stabilize the center of mass in the upper body. That's about what I can figure.
post #64 of 86
Not quite - try it when you are seriously balance challenged....
post #65 of 86
Quote:
Not quite - try it when you are seriously balance challenged....
Ok, but I hate women that play games.

[ December 19, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #66 of 86
COMIC INTERLUDE! Since the topic is "POE touches"

It was many, many a year ago
I decided to learn to ski
I'd start a turn and my quads would burn
Then I'd suddenly fall on my knee.

At times I grew bold
But then it got cold
And I desperately needed to.........
I decided the slopes
Were only for dopes
So now, I live by the sea! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But seriously, I agree with yuki. Especially on the more challenging stuff, pole touches help bring Worcester {center of Mass. get it? } down the hill.
Call me a dinosaur, but I like the exercise where you drag your poles in the snow as you turn. [img]redface.gif[/img]
post #67 of 86
Never more?
post #68 of 86
I tried the no poles thing last weekend. I like it. I skied better without them. Tomorrow I'm going to try and figure out why it's better without them.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Not quite - try it when you are seriously balance challenged....
Ok, but I hate women that play games. </font>[/quote]That's all right we live on different continents - so you're unlikely to end up my play thing
post #70 of 86
Ok disski I have played around with the hand stretching exercise quite a bit and here is what I have found.

In beginner classes with seriously challenged skiers I have found this excercise to very useful. It quiets them down and they are able to work with their feet. It improves the overall stance quite a bit. A hand stretch with the right tip right and left tip left works quite well with balance issues involved.

Me and another telemark examiner went out on a blue type run with corn snow/slush conditions and played with the hand stetching in upper level skiing. Both of us came to the conclusion that in upper level skiing, the hand stretch seriously inhibited the free flow movement of the center of mass across the skis. Nothing that we seemed to do would change that except letting go of the stretch and keeping our elbows in the same position.

We both came to the conclusion that the hand stretch exercise tightened the upper body muscles and stablilzed the upper body all the way to the hips.

Our conclusion is that the hand stretching exercise is pretty useful at the never ever level with seriously balance challeged skiers but a detriment to free movement at higher levels.
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
I stick by my position that poles are not necessary.
Maybe in Akron, Ohio. Come to Alta on a day with 3 feet of fresh and see if you feel the same way....

1 thing that has been missed is that in short radius turns, the pole acts as a fulcrum that helps us start our skis rotating and moving in the direction of the new turn. Remember Mr. Newton? For every action there is an equal and oppsite reaction. Objects at rest then to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force ? The pole touch is, in conjunction with the rotation of the legs, one of the forces that helps us turn our skis in short radius turns. This is also true in Deep pow were we have a significant amount of lateral resistance to turning our skis. I'll agree that my poles do very little for turn initation at 40 mph GS or Super-G turns. The turn initation is to gradual/the turn radius is so large that the flucrum provided my my poles is un-nessicary.

Lonnie

[ January 02, 2004, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Lonnie ]
post #72 of 86
Lonnie while I can see the usefulness of poles in three feet of dump, I cannot agree with the notion that poles are necessary as fulcums for short radius turns. If that were the case, poles would be necessary in bumps and they are not.
post #73 of 86
Pierre,

Can I change my tatics in the bumps to ski them without poles? Yes. But it's still much easier to ski them with your poles. I'd also like to ask what you ski on? I think that this make a big difference in application of skills. You got shorties? (I don't, mid fats) If so I'll be more inclined to agree with you. You don't see guys on snow blades with poles. Why? It's really easy to rotate the feet with such short levers under our feet. If you don't agree that the pole acts as fulcrum try this. Standing still try rotating your feet with and without using your pole as an anchor. You'll find that its's much easier to rotate your feet with your pole touching the snow. It's a fulcrum dude.

Edit ---> 1 more thing. I think this gets down to weather we are steering our feet or pusing our feet. If you don't use your pole in Short radius your going to be much more inclined to push them and not steer them. When you push, you lose the ability to make fine adjustments to your turn shape/radius once you start tuning...

Time to head up the canyon...
Lonnie

Edit2 ---> Guess I got wait to head up the Canyon. Road Closed and interlodge in effect until 10:30 Too much pow !

[ January 02, 2004, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: Lonnie ]
post #74 of 86
Pole taps or pole plants NEVER made a turn. : ---Wigs
post #75 of 86
Lonnie it isn't the arrow its the indian. I can ski bumps fine on a pair of 203 Volkl P40's without trouble. The ski I am skiing now, is a Rossi T3 in a 176mm length with Rainey Hammerhead bindings. Bumps are ok with poles/ without poles/ one foot/ two foot.

A proper turn initiation beats a pole plant/touch every time its tried.

Poles in powder are great for releasing a binding, propelling one's self along and using them like snowshoes to get back up from a fall. For me, those three things would be indespensible.
post #76 of 86
I guess what I'm saying is even though some folks CAN ski fine without them, for most skiers, poles make skiing easier and therefore are needed. If you can do all the things you say, more power to you. I can't ( at least and the same level of performance as I could with poles). I could most likely drive my car using only my feet, but that doesn't mean I should do it or it's easy. I certainly couldn't do it at the same level of performance as I could using my hands AND feet.

I totally agree that turn initiation comes from releasing the old outside ski and flattening and steering it (them) in the direction of the new turn. Can I do this without poles ? Yes. It it easier with poles ? Again, Yes. Are certain turn shapes/speeds easier to initiate without using poles ? Yes (World Cup DH for example). However, for most of skiers, using the poles to help initiate the turn makes it much easier. By using the pole touch to draw the upper body across the hips and towards the direction of the new turn, the skis flatten and release. This is much easier for most people than simply directing the knees toward the direction of the turn using the ball and socket joint in the hip alone. Poles also serve to stabilize the upper (ok the whole) body in this transitional time time of dominate balance shifting from old outside ski to new outside ski.

I'm a proponent of making this sport as easy as possible. Why work hard when you don't have to. How often do you take out your P40's? How often do you ski them in bumps ? I would bet not very often. Why? They're just too much work. Why make it harder than you have to ?

Lonnie

[ January 02, 2004, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Lonnie ]
post #77 of 86
Lonnie you're point about being easier for most people is well taken. I will say though that I believe that real changes to a persons skiing can be made faster without poles. The reason is that movements tend to originate from the feet given the arms are not swinging all around.
post #78 of 86
Pierre,

I can live with your response. I generally let folks keep their poles until/unless they look like the poles are causing problems. Only then do I take them away. I don't stress using the poles (for more than locomotion/balance) until we get the releasing of the skis down using just our feet. Only then do I show them how they can help. Sounds like the Avalance control work is done, time to head up and "learn some people how to ski"

Lonnie

[ January 02, 2004, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Lonnie ]
post #79 of 86
I think that poles help very much with stabilizing the upper body if the primary means of turn transition is an up unweighting movement pattern. Up-unweighting uses a sequential balance transfer while active inside leg extension with a diagonal move is a progressive balance transfer and does not really benefit from upper body stabilization in the same way. The stabilization comes from always having strong contact between both feet with the snow.

I don't own P40's, I swaped skis with someone while skiing bumps a couple of years ago. They are indeed more work but ski bumps fine. Faster for sure.
post #80 of 86
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Up-unweighting uses a sequential balance transfer while active inside leg extension with a diagonal move is a progressive balance transfer and does not really benefit from upper body stabilization in the same way. The stabilization comes from always having strong contact between both feet with the snow.
As I said in my last post I think we're coming pretty much to common ground but I couldn't resist 1 more post (my wife says I always have to have the last word.... ) Even if the balancing mechanism is different and the balance afforded by a pole touch is different , the extra stabilization STILL helps. The third point of contact still provides more stability than two points of contact (unless of course the "touch" is severe enough to cause us to lose our balance ) I guess what I was getting at with the Gs and larger turns it the transition is relatively slow (compared to Short radius) allowing us to get away with the move without using the extra stability of a pole touch....

Lonnie

I just love discussions like this. It really helps my understanding of what's happening while we are skiing.
post #81 of 86
Lonnie I would say that you are right for 97% of all skiers (remember on Epicski the number is always 97%).

Myself I feel more dynamic and less static no matter what size turns I am doing without poles. They help stabilize everything too much for me to really like them.

As an aside, I have been using poes lately because I have been teaching. I have also been skiing telemark exclusively and telemark, poes and bc just go together. I still feel better on telemark without poes on piste but what I find is that its very hard to go back to them if you leave them alone most of the time.
post #82 of 86
Pierre,

Here's a question for you. Have you tried skiing with poles and not touching them? How does that feel to you? I was going to write more, but I don't want to bias your answer...

Just curious,
Lonnie

[ January 02, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Lonnie ]
post #83 of 86
Lonnie that feels funky. Not only do I not have the advantage of a poe touch point for timing but I have to cart some lousy sticks around that restrict fine movements of the upper body in ways that do not feel as powerful or as dynamically balanced to me.
post #84 of 86
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Ok disski I have played around with the hand stretching exercise quite a bit and here is what I have found.

In beginner classes with seriously challenged skiers I have found this excercise to very useful. It quiets them down and they are able to work with their feet. It improves the overall stance quite a bit. A hand stretch with the right tip right and left tip left works quite well with balance issues involved.

Me and another telemark examiner went out on a blue type run with corn snow/slush conditions and played with the hand stetching in upper level skiing. Both of us came to the conclusion that in upper level skiing, the hand stretch seriously inhibited the free flow movement of the center of mass across the skis. Nothing that we seemed to do would change that except letting go of the stretch and keeping our elbows in the same position.

We both came to the conclusion that the hand stretch exercise tightened the upper body muscles and stablilzed the upper body all the way to the hips.

Our conclusion is that the hand stretching exercise is pretty useful at the never ever level with seriously balance challeged skiers but a detriment to free movement at higher levels.
I never suggested you ski like that - simply to try it in a BALANCE CHALLENGE....(ie playing around OFF snow)
as you have noticed when peoples balance is challenged stretching the hands HELPS....
Good skiers are not really so balance challenged - even in tricky conditions - hence why I am now made to take poles nearly all the time - I need to learn to use them & my arms constructively, now that I have the foot part sort of under control a bit....

Stretching a tendon (or set of) apparently sets all the others in the body on "red alert" - that is why the balancing becomes easier when hands are stretched....
post #85 of 86
Sorry to come into this conversation so late (not really )

Isn't the real issue whether poles are enhancing your skiing or not, and not really whether they are nessasary? And further isn't it the pole swing that really is enhancing our skiing most of the time and not the touch or plant? Who wants to touch a ploe down at 40 miles an hour, but the moves are still going on.

There are terrain and times when a blocking pole plant will help, but for the most part, in general skiing, it's the swing that needs to be right. Do we swing with our arms or our wrists? Do we swing it in the right direction? Adding to this I find that whether with poles or without, our hands and arms to some degree, have movement to them, moves that enhance balance and add direction (I'm not talking about flailing around either). The trick with poles is to have the movements enhance the moves we make without them. To have them enhance and compliment the moves we make down low.

I'll qualify this with saying that I teach alot without poles, at all levels, and almost never teach beginers with poles. I also enjoy skiing without them for reinforcment of my own skills. With or without is only as important as the moves we make with or without, right?

Disski, from some recent reading I've been doing this might be called "Tendon Gaurd Reflex". Stressing or tensioning tendons and muscles in one part of our body can induce the fight or flight response which forces our tendons and muscles in the lower leg to prime for movement and moves our balance over the front of the foot, and moves the upper body into alignment over or forefeet and add complimentary tension in the upper body. It was stated that this is a protection mechanism for our muscles and tendons along with protecting our well being. It made sense to me. What do you think?
post #86 of 86
yes Ric - exactly so
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