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tuning a sl ski. - Page 3

post #61 of 85
Chief!  thanks for the shots you proved my point!! 

As for racing and your signature, be careful what you wish for!
post #62 of 85
Laurens, if that is you Arria Very nice skiing in spite of your tune!!!!! (although seems like alot of up motion in your freeskiing) Probably caused by too little base bevel, which makes progressively rolling on edge extremely dicey!
post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Laurens, if that is you Arria Very nice skiing in spite of your tune!!!!! (although seems like alot of up motion in your freeskiing) Probably caused by too little base bevel, which makes progressively rolling on edge extremely dicey!
Yeah the up-down movement... Something my trainers at home learned me, and I thought they where right, till I went training abroad and all my other trainers told me that aint good!. Now I am spending my whole summer to stop doing this. Ah well, sounds better than laying down in a chair in the backyard
post #64 of 85
Don't feel bad we all have habits we need to unlearn!!!  I sure would like to spend some time in the brushes and stubbies parcticing SL espescially flushes. I always over turn!

I am jealous if you are out skiing while i am basking in a lawn chair in the backyard1
post #65 of 85
Ah well, I'm just lucky to have a nice 520meter long indoor slope around the corner ;-). Next month I even have a racecamp at that slope. I think it's kinda funny to ski the whole year round in a country without even a real mountain .
post #66 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Chief!  thanks for the shots you proved my point!! 

As for racing and your signature, be careful what you wish for!


All I need to do is pick a long hardpack course to race on.  Your pristine 3 * V edges will dull to a U within five or six turns while my butchered L's will stay razor sharp for months



Isn't that correct Airria?
post #67 of 85
Ha, Ha ....... if racing were just about sharp edges .......................

But  your L's suck from the start wand. After you are flipped on your head in the 1st turn I will leisurely cruise my way to a win!!!!

Or i 'll give you the benefit of the doubt and wait until your grabby ass skis inadvertently release your bindings on the pitch! or you ski out of the course 'cuz you can't redirect. Opps forgot, ya don't know how anyway!
post #68 of 85
By the way, it ain't true anyway!  besides my slaloms have a 4 degree. Even if they dull a bit (which they don't My slightly dull 4 will still hold better then your sucky 0.

Also consider there is more to side edge geometry then just edge hold. I have found more side edge bevel aslo increase energy and rebound!  
post #69 of 85
FWIW, I haven't had a ski release in the past two years, or any time since skiing competitively. Not bad for 12 days eh?  I've even skied some Marker Biometric toe pieces.  I did eat it after hitting some rocks at BK last season, but the skis stayed on.  Good thing, needed to roll on my back, spin them around, and dig them in to arrest the slide.  I must just be a wuss that doesn't push it enough.  The older I get the less I push the envelope.  But, I do still like to ski fast.  Every time I ride my bike in the summer, cranking the legs as fast as I can in gear 21 it feels slow  and boring compared to skiing.
post #70 of 85
I love how a simple tuning question on this forum always becomes a bitch fight over tuning theory...
post #71 of 85
So you are saying a recreational skier who does not know enough to know how a slalom ski should be tuned should use a 0/0.

I know you betta then that!
post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

So you are saying a recreational skier who does not know enough to know how a slalom ski should be tuned should use a 0/0.

I know you betta then that!

By George, I think he's got it!
post #73 of 85
Reference Ski: 175 Head Super Shape

Actual Tune: Talking About Only The Snow Contact Area Of Ski:

Tip Area 6" down - some high poly base material next to edges - with concavity further toward the middle of ski width - 1 degree base bevel - 3 side -

Tails 6" up - 1 degree base bevel - 3 side -

Entire Midsection Of Ski: 0 or even slightly negative base bevel - 3 side - with concavity

This tune causes the the midsection of the ski to hook up first - as there is no arc in the ski - but the ski is on edge - you almost fall down - it's the arc of the ski that lets you angulate sideways against the snow -

This is probably why I thought my ski's were garbage - a shaped ski needs to arc to be used correctly - most recreational skiers are incapable of putting the correct amount of arc into the ski - they neither know how to do an extremely quick edge set - quick edge release reactive slalom turn or a an aggressive standard carved slalom turn -

They also do not seem to understand that a ski can be skied flat making very pretty slided slalom turns -

They simply go down the hill making half-axxed slightly edged jerky slalom turns - they do not seem to have a clue that a ski can be highly reactive -

The importance of being able to slide a ski and then turn the edges on and arc the ski is what makes skiing fun - the ski needs to be able to do both - and smoothly -

So - I'm with Atomic - a 0 degree base bevel - and even worse - a 0 degree base bevel on a concave ski - ( and apparently most shaped ski's are concave or at least some - not sure here ) - makes skidding the ski a very tricky precise operation -

So - the ski needs a .5 to 1 degree base bevel and I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to all ski's - old school straight or shaped -

The ski racer needs the base bevel also - allowing some correction to be made when a too tight line is chosen or problems with balance are met -

So - I'm entirely with Atomic on the base bevel thing -

The side bevel is something I'm still thinking about - yes I want the ski to bite into the snow - but I do not want to dig trenches with the edges either - what I want is for the ski to bite and arc properly allowing me to angleate to the maximun degree I choose too - which could mean skiing almost flat agaianst the hill in a high speed turn - and I want the ski to react off this arc putting me into the next turn - this reaction off the ski's arc is vitally important and whatever side bevel degree gives me the most reaction is something to consider - so I wonder what's the difference between 88 degrees/1 base/3 side and 90 degrees/1 base/1 side -

This sharpness thing - the difference between a 90 degree edge and an 88 degree edge - there both basically square edges - I mean really - how much faster could an 88 degree edge dull ? The edge is basically a molecular line with the molecule's sticking out in a ragged fashion anyway - so a sharp ski is really a serrated edge - a smooth serrated edge (sharp) or a blunted un-even serrated edge(dull)
post #74 of 85
You got it dude!! Stick with a 3 degree side edge trust me here! if you do a nice smooth 1/3 you are going to love life!!!!

I have done a ton of tuning and tune my skis, both my son's (ex-racers) skis and many of our racer friends and parents skis.

No complaints all around!


1/3
post #75 of 85
Atomic: couple questions -

Back Filing: what is the purpose of this and how wide should the final side bevel be ? The full edge - part of the edge width wise ?

Jet Turn: why did this type exit turn go out of vogue as fast as it came in ?

Killy was the only one who could perform it - it seems - as the turn requires an almost magical set of parameters to be done correctly -
post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Johnson View Post

........Back Filing: what is the purpose of this and how wide should the final side bevel be ? The full edge - part of the edge width wise?.......
 

I back file to remove approx 25-30% off the width of side edge using a 7 degree guide which for me is two firm passes with a ba$tard file & a few passes with a 200grit Moonflex.
post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Johnson View Post

Atomic: couple questions -

Back Filing: what is the purpose of this and how wide should the final side bevel be ? The full edge - part of the edge width wise ?

Jet Turn: why did this type exit turn go out of vogue as fast as it came in ?

Killy was the only one who could perform it - it seems - as the turn requires an almost magical set of parameters to be done correctly -

 
Backfiling bevels the sidewall material above the side edge to ensure a proper side edge engle is acheived when you bevel yur side edge with elimnating interference from the sidewall. Important on all skis but x-tra importanat on vertical sidewall skis like your Head SS and with more acute angles like a 3 or 4 degree side edge. Head has a lot of sidewall material on thier skis.

I also use a special 7 degree side edge beveler and a short Panzer file to backfile. It takes almost none of your side edge off. But when you bevel for your final edge angle it the bevel is the full width of the metal edge.


Actually Wayne Wong was the jet turn king. the french always skied on thier tails. maybe why i never liked French skis.

Here is a diagram that Alpinord did in the WIKI section.

As a specialized tool, it can be a bit pricey for the casual tuner, however. A viable alternative is to use an adjustable multi-angle guide or a dedicated edge guide with a short panzer or coarse file to cut back the sidewall so the diamond, stone or file cutting tools are not obstructed.

 

 


Edited by Atomicman - 7/8/2009 at 11:10 pm GMT
post #78 of 85

Am in the process of purchasing a set of 165 cm Atomic D2 SL Racers.  Great product. 

 

Been reading all the blogs (well many of them).

 

Ok guys....what is the factory recommendation for edges on this ski?  I do not want to fiddle with this until I establish that there is a problem.  A lot of different opinions so hope I can get a call from someone who uses this fantastic piece of technology.  Thanks.

post #79 of 85

I have a brand new pair of 179cm Race GS D2 (Non-FIS Version). The factory tune was absolutely perfect. This ski has tenacious edge grip and the slalom may even be better. The Gs's were Right on a 1/3. and skied beautifully right out of the wrapper.

 

All Atomics come with a 1 Base edge and 3 Side edge. Although I have my slaloms at .7/4. (Head i.SL RD and Atomic GS12 Powerbridge also)

post #80 of 85

You confirmed what I had thought. 

 

Give this ski a try as I'm sure you'll be smitten as well.  Ok, I'm sounding like a salesman.  Looking forward to unwrapping these little ferraris and belting them down the mountain.

 

Thanks Atomicman. 

post #81 of 85

What works best for the public and what is used in the big league are two different things. 1base/3side will more than suffice for mortals.

post #82 of 85

3/1.  Got it.  Thanks.

post #83 of 85

That would be 1/3.th_dunno-1[1].gif

 

Ya always quote base bevel first!words.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubledeckfan View Post

3/1.  Got it.  Thanks.

post #84 of 85

How your skis are tuned is an individual preference. There is no real standard. It's what is best for you and how you ski and what your skiing on for snow. Most races are now run on as hard a surface,snow/ice, so it limits the deterioration of the course. So what you need to do is find hard snow/ice similar to what you get on a race course and get a diamond file and a bevel and a protractor. Then start at 90 degrees on the edges, detune the first 4 to 6 inches slightly, and keep trying increasing the angle until your happy with the carve and how it releases. It changes with the different types of snow. As long as the edges are sharp, its technique and waxing that you need to concentrate on.

 

post #85 of 85

I've seen a rental place in Canada do what you suggested OneEyed.  Unfortunately I tend to want to use the proper jigs and suchforth so that I do not wreck the factory preset and so that I get a consistent angle.  Maybe us mere mortals don't need to be too fussy but I'll try and do it right.

I bought an 87 degree jig but am not at all sure exactly how to use this.  I'm sure it'll work it out though.

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