or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

tuning a sl ski. - Page 2

post #31 of 85

Jeff.

Looking at your old posts it looks like you have had very bad luck with your Supershapes.

Rennstall claims "all of our work is 100% guaranteed" so just take them back and go

over both skis with the tech. Get them to check flatness and bevels and explain it all

to you point by point. I am sure you two can figure out the problem.

I, like others here, love our Supershapes with a 1 and 3 tune.

As for alignment problems, visit a bootfitter. How about Brent Amsbury in Park City.

"Stance alignment and boot sole planing"

http://www.bootfitters.com/shops/west_UT_ParkCity_PCPedorthics.htm

 

Jon

post #32 of 85

Those skis are designed to have the edges grip the snow like it's on rails.  They Rail "so bad" because they are suposed to.  They were made for carving railroad tracks.

 

How can you bend your ankles in your ski boots?  Have you got leather boots from the 1950s or are they just three sizes too big?

post #33 of 85

0 degree base edge bevel in the between 6" from the tip & tail would certainly produce the symptoms you are describing. Some concavity is a very normal situation and in and of itself would cause no problems as long as your skis are flat in from each edge at least a 1.5 cm. The problem caused by concave bases is that the majority of base edge guides use the base to set the correct base edge angle. If the base is low it reduces the base edge bevel and if it is hgi it adds too much base bevel. If the concavity is very ununiformed,  then so is your base edgre bevel and the skis will ski erratically due to a "wavy" base edge angle or in your case more bevel in tips and tail and no bevel under the majority of the ski.

 

In light of your stance issues it really sounds like you need to get your boots canted. The cuff adjustment is really just meant to conform the cuff to the general shape of your lower leg, not cant your alignment.

 

I have had many a pair of skis over the years tuned by a reputable tuning shop only to get them back unskiable. in fact this very situation is what inspired me to become tuning self reliant (other then a flat base grind) and even those have been sketchy at times and I have had to have them redone. But buying a $200K stone grinder is just not in the cards!

 

I would also highly recommend you go to a 1 degree base bevel and leave the side edge at 3.  A true 1 degree works very, very well!

 


Edited by Atomicman - 6/24/2009 at 08:48 pm GMT


Edited by Atomicman - 6/24/2009 at 08:51 pm GMT
post #34 of 85

 I agree with everything Atomicman said, except I would go with  (a true) 0.5,3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

0 degree base edge bevel in the between 6" from the tip & tail would certainly produce the symptoms you are describing. Some concavity is a very normal situation and in and of itself would cause no problems as long as your skis are flat in from each edge at least a 1.5 cm. The problem caused by concave bases is that the majority of base edge guides use the base to set the correct base edge angle. If the base is low it reduces the base edge bevel and if it is hgi it adds too much base bevel. If the concavity is very ununiformed,  then so is your base edgre bevel and the skis will ski erratically due to a "wavy" base edge angle or in your case more bevel in tips and tail and no bevel under the majority of the ski.

 

In light of your stance issues it really sounds like you need to get your boots canted. The cuff adjustment is really just meant to conform the cuff to the general shape of your lower leg, not cant your alignment.

 

I have had many a pair of skis over the years tuned by a reputable tuning shop only to get them back unskiable. in fact this very situation is what inspired me to become tuning self reliant (other then a flat base grind) and even those have been sketchy at times and I have had to have them redone. But buying a $200K stone grinder is just not in the cards!

 

I would also highly recommend you go to a 1 degree base bevel and leave the side edge at 3.  A true 1 degree works very, very well!

 


Edited by Atomicman - 6/24/2009 at 08:48 pm GMT


Edited by Atomicman - 6/24/2009 at 08:51 pm GMT

 

post #35 of 85

Damn it! i was going to put at the end of my post, "When Ghost tells tyou to go to a .5 don't pay attention to him" I guess i am becoming PC in my old age.

 

look Ghost I know you love your .5 degree.  But for most recreational skiers who generally lack immaculate technique a .5 is just too demanding.

 

A reality check for you. The majority of skiers on Epic harass me for talking about the difference between a .5 and a 1. they say that .5mm at 60 mm across the ski surely can't make any diffrence in skiability.

 

So what I am saying is you should absoltley keep your .5. 

 

The OP will not benefit from a .5 particulalry with alignment issues he is asking for further trouble!

post #36 of 85
Atomicman,
You've convinced me.  I now agree with everything you said in the above post.   The OP should go with a 1:3.  (or maybe even an old Dynastar Crossmax tuned to 1:3)
post #37 of 85
   
post #38 of 85
Perhaps I can be a bit more clear - what - I refer to as railing -

Neither very aggressive slalom turns or extremely quick edge set - quick edge release reactive slalom turns result in railing - the ski works reasonably well in these types of turns - it doesn't rail doing this -

It's at the end of a run where I'm just slowing down and sliding the ski's that suddenly both edges decide to dig these giant ruts into the snow - throwing me off balance and on my head - now I don't mind doing the Bodie Miller thing - but I think the people on the chair lift eye-ing me up wonder what the hell I'm doing -

My ski boots fit perfectly - it sounds counter intuitive to be saying bending the ankles sideways in the boots -

but the reality is you can control your edges with the sideways muscles in the ankles much better than you can with bending the knees sideways - the sideways ankle pronation determines which side of the foot is weighted - also

What really bothers me most about these ski's is there in-ability to go really fast in a straight line - there simply to dam short for this and it's like skiing on a skate board -

I'd prefer a ski that would do 90 mph without problem - do very quick highly reactive slalom turns when I wanted - race slalom gates if I can ever find any - and if worse comes to shove - even work reasonably well on a gated downhill course - That is what I want from a ski -

I think I've got the tuning figured out and will rely on my trusted steel flat file and a marked ski bottom and blackened edges to get an even reasonable base bevel - and will find a tool that references the entire width of the ski base to set base bevel - as well as finding a way to get an equally even side bevel that isn't screwed up by that tool riding on an un-even or concave base -

You would think that someone building a 200,000 ski tuning machine would put laser depth sensors on it for the base and side edge sensors as well - then have a computer printout showing exactly how flat the ski is - as well as showing the exact degrees of base and side bevel the entire length of the ski -

The computer printout also might list all the things that can go wrong when a person tunes there own ski's - and the problems that might incur using various tools -
post #39 of 85
I'll bet that with a little practice you can tune as good or better than those that
have been tuning your skis.

Jon
post #40 of 85

"as well as showing the exact degrees of base and side bevel the entire length of the ski -"

this is not normally a problem.  side edge bevelers have a much wider foot and generally take their angle from the 1.5 to 2.5cm just adjacent to the edge and don't have a narrow foot that rides right in the low spot of a concave based ski.

I use both the SVST base and side edge bevelers. If the base is very concave I use the TOKO base edge beveler (spans the entire width of the base)



Edited by Atomicman - 6/25/2009 at 04:57 pm GMT
post #41 of 85
Ok this might shock you all...


Swedish ladies national team use: 0/0 a perfect 90 degree angle. For faster, but less agressive, skiing. Believe it or not, but they really do it this way. I can tell...been there..done that..


Atomicman, may i ask what your relation is to the racing scene?
post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airria View Post

Ok this might shock you all...


Swedish ladies national team use: 0/0 a perfect 90 degree angle. For faster, but less agressive, skiing. Believe it or not, but they really do it this way. I can tell...been there..done that..
 
That's how I tune all my skis as well, just flat and sharp, nothing fancy. 
post #43 of 85
I find this extremely difficult to believe. As i highly doubt all skiers on any team ALL have their skis tuned identically.

I will accept that some racers on SLT may use 0 degrees base bevel for slalom, but highly unlikely for Gs, Sg or DH and i  am very skeptical that on an WC water-injected race course that they would use a 0 degree side edge bevel when i know the many competitors in SL &  use a 3,4 5 or even a 6 degree side edge bevel.

I race Masters and both my sons raced seriously for 10 years.
post #44 of 85
Atomicman, you make the same mistake that I see almost everyone make.

1/3 doesnt mean it's sharper dan 0/0! They can actually be the same sharp! The problem a 1/3 angle has on a water injected slope is that the real sharpness is gone whitin like say 8 turns. While a 0/0 stays sharp the whole run. Using a 6 degree side edge bevel was perfect in the old-non-carve days. We don't want that agressive skiing anymore, we want smooth fast and clean carving turns. And for this 0/0 is more usefull then 1/3.

Quote:
Atomicman
I find this extremely difficult to believe. As i highly doubt all skiers on any team ALL have their skis tuned identically.


Well they actually do, I didnt believe it myself untill I actually saw it getting done.
 
post #45 of 85
Sorry,  this is in direct oppositionto what i know is true from experimenting with my own skis. there is absolutly no doubt that an acute side edge angle holds beter on hard snow.

also a 0 degree base bevel provides no ability to feather or ski oprogressively. you are either on or off. Hardly a formula for smooth fast skiing.  Additionally World Cup skiers use redirection all the time (a controlled skid at the top of the turn to offensively control speed and line rather then a defensive skid at the bottom of the turn) a 0 dgree base bevel certainly does not promote this technique. Although I will admit in Slalom it is no used often and a ) degree base bevel is used in slalom on the WC. but I believe a 0/0 geometry would absolutley be in the minority.

No in the non-carve days everyone used a 0/0!!!! 

Base and side edge bevels did not become prevealent until shape skis were introduced. (not to say someone didn't  use bevels back in the old straight ski days, I am sure someone did)

Also 1/3 dulls no faster then any other tune! (Ask Mike Desantis, who was the race service director and product development manager for Volkl skis in North America!) he is at precision tuning Center in Framinham,  MA

The rest of his credentials:
Mike's extensive background combined with 40 years in the sport of skiing, are instrumental to his success:
  • Graduate Stratton Mountain Ski Academy
  • University of Vermont Ski Team
  • Physical Education Degree UVM
  • 9 years Alpine Coach at Stratton Mt. School
  • 7 years World Cup Technician/Race Director for Volkl
  • 4 years Product Development Manger for Volkl
  • Member Volkl International Test Team





If a 0/0 is so great why aren't the Swedish women dominating the WC. If I were you I would be tuning like the Austrian women and then I'd talk to the Swiss!

 1. Lindsey Vonn, United States                 1788
   2. Maria Riesch, Germany                       1424
   3. Anja Paerson, Sweden                        1059
   4. Kathrin Zettel, Austria                     1046
   5. Tanja Poutiainen, Finland                    914
   6. Tina Maze, Slovenia                          852
   7. Fabienne Suter, Switzerland                  797
   8. Elisabeth Goergl, Austria                    755
   9. Nadia Fanchini, Italy                        714
  10. Andrea Fischbacher, Austria                  697
  11. Lara Gut, Switzerland                        583
  12. Sarka Zahrobska, Czech Republic              582
  13. Maria Pietilae-Holmner, Sweden               518
  14. Nicole Hosp, Austria                         496
  15. Manuela Moelgg, Italy                        444
  16. Marie Marchand-Arvier, France                407
  17. Andrea Dettling, Switzerland                 380
  18. Denise Karbon, Italy                         357
  19. Sandrine Aubert, France                      346
  20. Anna Fenninger, Austria                      338





Edited by Atomicman - 6/25/2009 at 05:51 pm GMT
post #46 of 85
Quote:Atomicman
If a 0/0 is so great why iare'nt the Swedish women dominating the WC. If I were you I would tuning like  the Austrian women!
I think this is a silly argument.There simply isnt any country dominating the WC. Anja Paeson, who is swedisch is above all the Austians so why should I tune like the Austrians?
That there are more austrians in the top 20 doesnt mean they are dominating. It's no more then likelly when they have as twice as much competitors in the worldcup scene.

Edit;
Seems you added some more arguments While I was posting. Let I say this, how many experience a guy has had in the past 40 years doesnt say anything to my. Also I don't want to know where the guy worked and what he did. I only care about the girls and guys who are actually out there at the momemt we speak. This sport is to fast changing to use 40 year old experience.
 

Edited by Airria - 6/25/2009 at 06:10 pm GMT
post #47 of 85
Agreed!  
post #48 of 85
I will say that the sharper angle a piece of metal is beveled at the more quickly it is susceptible to wearing down. A V point will dull more quickly than an L.  But the amount of difference were talking about here on steel that is rubbing snow and frozen water probably isn't significant enough to matter over the "course"of a day.. pun intended.  Glad A-man has a new bevel buddy.  Keep the good info coming folks.  It matters to lots of people here.
post #49 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airria View Post
...

The problem a 1/3 angle has on a water injected slope is that the real sharpness is gone whitin like say 8 turns. While a 0/0 stays sharp the whole run....


Airria,

Do you have before and after micrographs of the 0/0 and 1/3 edges skied on a slalom course?  Or before and after tests performed in a respectable machine shop?  Wouldn't it be surprising for this to be true when so many world-class athletes hunt for the slightest advantage and yet routinely use significant side bevel?

Jeff,

If you find a premier slalom ski that'll hit 90 mph and track straight without swimming on flat bases, let us know.  Ski technology has advanced tremendously, but I have yet to hear of such a ski.  These are two very different design points, which is why slalom and downhill skis look so different.  (Academic interest only:  I'll never ski at speed discipline speeds out of an instinct for self-preservation.)
post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post



Airria,

Do you have before and after micrographs of the 0/0 and 1/3 edges skied on a slalom course?  Or before and after tests performed in a respectable machine shop?  Wouldn't it be surprising for this to be true when so many world-class athletes hunt for the slightest advantage and yet routinely use significant side bevel?

Jeff,

If you find a premier slalom ski that'll hit 90 mph and track straight without swimming on flat bases, let us know.  Ski technology has advanced tremendously, but I have yet to hear of such a ski.  These are two very different design points, which is why slalom and downhill skis look so different.  (Academic interest only:  I'll never ski at speed discipline speeds out of an instinct for self-preservation.)

 
Could not have said it better myself!!  who are these jokers???
post #51 of 85
This sport is to fast changing to use 40 year old experience

You are becoming more & more irritating!

What the F are you talking about 40 year old experience???

0/0 is 40 year old ski tuning geometry!

You are truly bassackwards!
post #52 of 85
The 40 year old experience I am talking about is the one of your friend Mike you wrote about. If they used 0/0 40 years ago.. I can't tell. That before my time. I only knew that we used to work with 1/3 and changed it 0/0 around 2008, so we could ski faster and less agressive.

@sharpe. The way we found out about those edges is not based on micrographs. It's just based on 2 things; common sence and test results on water injected slopes. No, i can't show you the results. We did not videotape anything and did not wrote anything down.

Please don't think I'm trying to piss you off :-) I'm not writing in my own language, maybe sometimes you read it a little bit different that I want you to read it :-) It's just my opinion..
post #53 of 85
What I want to say about edges to everybody: There is no standard that's prefect for everybody. Just try out some different setups (and videotape the tryouts!!). And see what you like the best. You are the one who's skiing that ski. Not your best friend. Not your coach.
post #54 of 85
Hi Airria - Mucho Hugs -

Well - now that I've got that out of the way -

Are you a coach - skier - assistant to the Swedish ski team ?

Lindsey Vonn and her friend Maria R. are about the only two skiers on the WC who can hold a full turn - seems a bit odd to me -

Jean Claude Killy is in my mind the best skier ever and certainly the only one capable of doing The Jet Turn with any degree of skill - what edge bevel did he use - if he used 0/0 this would mean a lot to me -

Any way - Airria (very pretty name) - tell us more about the tuning disciplines currently evolving on the World Cup Circuit -

Yours Kindly - Jeff Johnson
post #55 of 85
Jeff, My relation to the Swedish ski team is simply that I am trained a few times a year by one of there trainers ;-). And besides that I'm a great fan
post #56 of 85

 

Base Bevel – the "Heart & Soul"

By Dave Peszek

This is the second in a series of articles on ski and snowboard tuning that will appear this season in Ski Racing. Each issue, we'll tackle different topics that arise in the preparation and maintenance of alpine and nordic skis and snowboards. The author will attempt to answer any tech questions that you may have – Pez@holmenkol.us.


If you have been following along, in the last issue we discussed the importance of starting the season off with a well cleaned & waxed quiver of skis. This issue, we will dive right into what a good friend calls the "heart & soul" of a ski – base bevel.

Graham Lonetto, owner of Edgewise Elite Service in Stowe, VT & former WC women’s technician, has studied the interplay between base bevel, slope pitch, and time through a GS training course. "One of my athletes was skiing fast on steep pitches but loosing time on the flats, so we did quite a bit of testing with base bevel. We found that increasing the base bevel allowed the athlete to be less harsh on her edges. This allowed the athlete to let the skis run downhill rather than across the pitch, drawing out the turn" says Lonetto. The testing consisted of equally prepared GS skis and considered angles of one half, three quarters, and one degree of base bevel of the athlete’s GS skis. This leads us to the statement that base bevel is the "heart & soul" of the ski. Small changes in the bevel contribute drastically to the skis on snow feel, performance, and ski-ability. The important thing to learn from Graham’s testing & WC experience is that base bevel is a hugely important variable, but also one that is subjective to you & your particular equipment setup. Change any one factor and they all are affected.

Virtually every ski today comes from the factory with a high quality stone grind, and often the base edge is "relieved" from the base material. This is a description for a factory process where the base steel is made roughly parallel to the base material, but set very slightly below the level of the plastic. When you, your coach, or your favorite shop inspect the factory base bevel, be sure to determine if the base side steel is actually angled (and how much) or if it is relieved.

One way to check your base bevel is to lay your true bar across the ski and carefully hold the bar flush against one base edge, testing in several spots along both edges of the ski. If you can lay the true bar flush against the steel, you have a base angle. Does the true bar just touch the corner of the steel & the base material? If so, you have base edge relief. Now examine the gap that is present on the other side of the true bar. Measure this gap in several places along the length of the ski. Ideally, it is consistent throughout the ski’s length. I like to see between 1-2 mm of consistent gap under the true bar – of course this is personal, and you need to test yourself to decide what is best. I also like to use an old gap dwelling tool or valve clearance guide to measure this distance (bonus points if you have one lying around!).

Many athletes will choose to start at one half degree and test from there. Remember, it is always easier to increase base bevel angle. Decreasing the angle requires extensive, precise, and very skilled stone grinding. Be sure to set every ski you own for that given discipline at the same angle, and check for consistency of angle throughout the season.



Jeff, although someone on the Wc is skiing with a 0/0 set-up, I double dare you to go out anf try a 0/0 on your Head Supershapes and report back here on how that worked for you!

One additional little anecdotal piece of info is that one of the reasons Atomic began to change from their Beta construction race skis on the WC, was many of the athletes wanted more ability to "feather" the ski in & out of the turn. The Beta constructions ski were said to be very much all on or all of edge. this is also how a 0 base bevel ski will ski.

i do believe their is some language barrier involved with Arria basedon  the comment  "0/0 for faster and less aggresiive skiing" does this  even make sense????   0/0 would be considered much more agressive As you have found out the hard way 0 base bevel is very aggressive,  as the skis just do not want to skid at all. In fact look, it caused you to start this thread, compalining about your tune!!!!

And if cgildart is skiing a 0/0 or 0/anything I want to see a video of that!!!!

But to say there isn't any country dominating the Wc is absurd.

post #57 of 85
Here is the side edge info!!!


 

Side Edging – "Where the rubber meets the road"

By Dave Peszek

This is the fourth in a series of articles on ski and snowboard tuning that will appear this season in Ski Racing. Each issue, we'll tackle different topics that arise in the preparation and maintenance of alpine and nordic skis and snowboards. The author will attempt to answer any tech questions that you may have – Pez@holmenkol.us.

Last issue we tackled the process of ski shaping. Hopefully, you have had a successful experience with all of your skis and now it is time to set your side edge angles. The first thing to determine is what angle would you like to run on your side edges? Most prefer 3 degrees; check with your local shop, rep, or coach to learn about your particular ski brand’s optimal angle. In World Cup today, most all athletes are running 3 degrees on all skis, all disciplines. A few very strong male SL skiers may choose 4 or even 5 degrees, but in my opinion this is left for the very best in the world.

According to Jonathon Weyant, USST Women’s EC Speed Serviceman, "back-filing is the most important thing to be certain of achieving the correct angles." Back filing should be your first step, and perform this "on the entire length of steel, from the very tip to the very tail" says Jonathon. Choose a body file (a.k.a. panzer or cross file), and place it securely in a file guide that is 1-2 degrees more than your intended final side angle. With a very sharp body file, it will take about 4-5 passes along the length of the ski.

"Pay special attention to how you secure your files & stones to your file guides" says Weyant. "Most juniors simply use a spring clamp, which allow the file or stones to wobble and will change the angle. I prefer to use a very strong thumb wheel clamp or c-clamps to fully secure the file for the most accurate results."

Between each pass, be sure to clean the ski, your file guide, and the file completely to avoid grinding shavings in to the ski. Use an inexpensive paintbrush to keep things clean, and a small copper toothbrush for the file. Many servicemen will also apply a layer of ski tape to the base of the ski to help prevent any filings from contaminating the plastic base material.

Next, choose a high quality finer grade file, and secure it properly to the file guide. Continue to file the entire piece of steel from top to bottom, until you achieve the desired angle. How to tell? There are a two methods: use your true bar atop your file guide and check in several spots along the length. If the true bar sits flat on the guide & the side steel, you have the angle. An even easier method is using a magic marker – simply rub a black marker over the side edge, pull the file, and check to be sure the black is gone across the width of the side steel.

Many professional servicemen are beginning to use shorter file sections for today’s skis, or simply breaking off the longer files into short sections. Either way, be sure your file is completely straight & true, clean, and sharp. The shorter file sections help to prevent the "laddering effect" that can happen on today’s shorter, radically shaped SL skis.

At this point you will have quite a burr, or "curl" built up. This "curl" wraps over the side edge towards the base, and needs to be removed. I like to pass a medium grade Arkansas (or ceramic) stone over the base steel at this time to cut that curl – it usually takes just one smooth pass with even pressure to do the job.

post #58 of 85
@atomic; If there is somebody dominating the World Cup it would be Lindsey Vonn, there can't be a doubt about that;-).
post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 


And if cgildart is skiing a 0/0 or 0/anything I want to see a video of that!!!!

But to say there isn't any country dominating the Wc is absurd.


I file the bases flat, check them with a true bar, then file the sides lightly  by hand with the file running flat lengthwise.  So,  whatever angle it came at I try to mimic.  Most likely ends up roughly 0/0 though., but far from precision., just flat and sharp.   And, that works great for me.  It's not like the surface we ski on is consistant anyway.

Sorry, no videos:



Ugh, look a all that spray!



Someday, maybe we can race.  refer to my sig..
post #60 of 85
0/0;
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs