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tuning a sl ski.

post #1 of 85
Thread Starter 

 What would a standard tune on a sl ski be?

 

  

post #2 of 85

.5 base / 3 side 

post #3 of 85

0 Base / 5 Side.

post #4 of 85

Standard on Slalom would be probably .5 base (or .7 maximum) and either a 3 degree or maybe a 2 degree side- depending on how much ice, etc.you normally have on a course. (Eastern skiing would probably always be 3 degree sides)

post #5 of 85
As you can see from the other posts, hard to say that there is a standard. Depends somewhat on the manufacturer and somewhat on what you're gonna use it for. I have a pair of this year's Atomic SL12 race stock 165s, factory tune is 1/3, and that's worked fine for me, so I keep it there. Some of my teammates use stuff like 0/4, which sticks really well but is a little twitchy, IMHO, others use something .5/3, or .5/4. You might want to start with something like .5/3 and change it if you don't like it...
post #6 of 85

Make them smooth, sharp, and fast...

post #7 of 85
Thread Starter 

Thanks to you all so far for your answers .

 

post #8 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rise To The Top View Post

0 Base / 5 Side.

 

Your not being serious right...

post #9 of 85

Flat courses 1/3, steeper courses .5 or .7 and 3.

post #10 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by volklgirl View Post

Flat courses 1/3, steeper courses .5 or .7 and 3.


OK, I have to ask... why?

 

Also, do you actually change your base bevel for different race courses? I can't imagine doing that unless I was paid to race, had an infinite supply of free skis, and a service guy to do it for me.

post #11 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 


OK, I have to ask... why?

 

Also, do you actually change your base bevel for different race courses? I can't imagine doing that unless I was paid to race, had an infinite supply of free skis, and a service guy to do it for me.

Here ya go!

 

http://www.holmenkol.net/myadmin/datafiles/techimages/Base%20Bevel%202.pdf

 

 

 

post #12 of 85

Well, tis a serious response for a serious racer. Really depends on how HXC you are, lol.

post #13 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

 

Here ya go!

 

http://www.holmenkol.net/myadmin/datafiles/techimages/Base%20Bevel%202.pdf

 

 

 


That article refers to GS though.

post #14 of 85

Same theory applies!

post #15 of 85

I'm not a racer, never been a racer (if you don't count unofficial Chinese Downhills and racing the POlice), so maybe you won't want to read any further.  However I have skied a bit.

 

IMHO a 0.5 base, 3 side is a pretty good standard tune for a slalom ski (actually I prefer that tune on all my skis).  It's what I would use for recreational skiing.  1 base is pretty lax and forgiving, kinda like having too much play in the steering wheel of your car.  I can think of no reason, nor condition why anyone would want to ski with any more than 0.5 base as far as control and behaviour of the ski is concerned, at least after a little accustomization.  0 base with modern shaped skis is a bit on the severe side of things; it would instantly grab and you would have to be "on" all the time.  You could actually loose time if due to abruptness of the engagement.

 

The  basic tune of 0.5,3 should be varied for different courses, very steep, very icy with very tight turns would have me increasing the side bevel.  I could easily see 5 side working better in some conditions.  Same goes for reducing base bevel.  It would have to be very steep and icy for it to make 0 base worthwhile, but 0.25 I can easily see.

 

For courses with a lot of gliding, you could increase your gliding speed by lifting the edges off the snow a bit, so for that type of course (more likely in GS SG or DH), you would want more than 1 base, but it would come at a cost on the tighter stuff.

 

You wouldn't actually change your bevel for races, you would have different skis of the same make model length, but tuned differently.


Edited by Ghost - 6/23/2009 at 11:13 am GMT
post #16 of 85

On a similar wavelength the more serious enthusiasts and WC level folks probably have several different length SLs and GS skis for different terrain and course personalities.  An entire quiver or SLs, GSs, SGs, DHs if slightly different lengths and tunes would be sweet for a serious racer.  Heck, I've got 3 pair of GS skis, but different vintages, not the same year and model.

post #17 of 85

True of GS and speed skis, but I sincerely doubt on the men's side they ski on anything but a 165 or 166cm ski. (remember men cannot go shorter then 165cm in slalom. Does not seem like there would be any advantage,  the way men's WC slalom is set,  to to battle a 170cm ski through the kind of offset that they run in slalom nowadays.

 

Some women (Lindsay Vonn) ski on a 165cm slalom ski even though women's length is a minimum of 155cm.

 

There are no  sidecut restrictions in Slalom but there is a minimum  waist width which I believe  is 63mm for WC men & women. 60mm for juniors.


Edited by Atomicman - 5/28/2009 at 05:35 pm GMT
post #18 of 85

"Standard" tune on most skis is a 1 base bevel. (hardly sloppy if it is a true 1 degree)

 

Most manufacturer's use a 2 a side edge many a 3.

post #19 of 85

 

Quote:

 

 1 base is pretty lax and forgiving, kinda like having too much play in the steering wheel of your car.  I can think of no reason, nor condition why anyone would want to ski with any more than 0.5 base as far as control and behaviour of the ski is concerned,


Aparrantly you have not skied on dry man-made snow.  Even the best racers I know struggle with small base bevel angles on it. That snow is ruthlessly unforgiving!
 

post #20 of 85

As many of us know, there's the good old phenomenon of "feels great, looks good, times bad."  I'd start out with a .75 base, and 3 degree edge on most men's SL skis, and see how they work. A flat ski will initiate a turn very quickly, will lock into a turn solidly, and be hardest to release. A four degree base bevel will really grip, and likely feel very "powerful". A five degree even more so. I think that the optimal tune is based on the ski, boot, skier's size, strength and overall biomechanics....assuming that they have great skills. Add to it the hill, the surface and the set. The WC guy might be fastest on a flat base, and a 5 degree edge. I've seen some very good guys {not WC guys} move to a flat ski with a four degree edge, and report that it feels great. However, about half of them tend to get round, dig in, overturn, and time a lot slower. A'man is on the money, with respect to man made abrasive snow. The flat ski and big edge angle can be very slow for guys on that type of surface. If you were to train in a place with a rock hard and steep surface, and be optimally set up for that, and then go race at a place like Lutsen {flat} on the same tune, you'd see the difference result wise. I don't think one size fits all.

 

 

 

post #21 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski View Post

. A four degree base bevel will really grip, and likely feel very "powerful". A five degree even more so.  

 

 

Obviously, the Mule meant side bevel, not base.

 

God, I'm glad I'm not racing these days.  "Flat and Square" was hard enough to maintain, and all the prep really cut into my beer drinking.

 

post #22 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

True of GS and speed skis, but I sincerely doubt on the men's side they ski on anything but a 165 or 166cm ski. (remember men cannot go shorter then 165cm in slalom. Does not seem like there would be any advantage,  the way men's WC slalom is set,  to to battle a 170cm ski through the kind of offset that they run in slalom nowadays.


Good point and great info.  At the top where money is no object and research is perpetual, would there still be slightly different turn radius and flex options for SL skis in a top 10 WC program clubhouse to choose from when prepping for a race in addition to different base bevels?

 

I once had the privilege of hanging out with some Women's Pro Tour competitors and their ski techs one week while I was in high school.  I'm thinking they only traveled with two or three pair of skis but they only skied tight GS duals for the most part..

 

post #23 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

 

 

Obviously, the Mule meant side bevel, not base.

 

God, I'm glad I'm not racing these days.  "Flat and Square" was hard enough to maintain, and all the prep really cut into my beer drinking.

 

 

True Dat. Hard enough to think, without getting it right. Thanks for the assist, Newfy. It is confusing, to be sure. I basically drink  a couple of beers while watching others do this, and if I buy the beer, they tune my stuff. I'm a very basic 1 and 3 {or anything close} on all of my stuff. Which includes zero SL skis!!

 

 

 



 

post #24 of 85

Have a new pair Head Super Shapes - 175 - tuned .75 base/3 degree side -

 

The ski Rails with this tune - digging in any time a softer (not Ice hard pack) patch of snow is crossed -  it is very bad when slowing down at the end of a run - both edges rail into the snow - more or less throwing you on your haed - it happens so abruptly -

 

If you watch World Cup Racing you'll notice many of these racers have the same problem - the ski will dig in when a softer patch of snow is crossed and then when the edges hit an icy section this causes the ski to bounce off the snow - they get away with it most of the time  - but many times they don't -

 

The Head Super Shape is not a racing ski - it's a recreational ski - and the above tune does not work well with it - the ski is useless for speeds over 25 mph - has very little reactive edge set to it generally - but you can get some reaction out of it if - you make your edge set's extremely quick -

 

Next year I plan on reducing the side bevel to 2 - 1 or even 0 - and increase the base bevel to a full 1 degree and at least make these  overly damp - almost dead feeling - unstable at speed ski's - at least recreationaly ski -able -

 

I doubt very much that all World Cup Racer's are using the 3 degree side bevel - Lindsy Vonn seems to be the only racer I've watched that can hold a complete full turn without her ski's bouncing all over the place -

 

maybe it's just her Rossi's or maybe her husband knows how to tune better than most - Have know idea -

 

 

 

 

 

post #25 of 85

Individual tastes in tune vary of course, but I ski my supershape 170s tuned 0.5 / 3 and love them.  As recreational carvers go, they're pretty responsive and hold well on firm east coast surfaces.  

 

Before you takes yours to 1/2 or 1/1, you might take a true bar to them and also make a quick pass to remove any remaining hanging burr to see if there were issues with the previous tune. 

 

Whatever tune you end up with, enjoy your new supershapes!

post #26 of 85

I have to agree with Sharpedges. Your skis probably aren't tuned as you think they are. Search old posts here concerning this characteristic of the Head SS's. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Johnson View Post

Have a new pair Head Super Shapes - 175 - tuned .75 base/3 degree side -

 

The ski Rails with this tune - digging in any time a softer (not Ice hard pack) patch of snow is crossed -  it is very bad when slowing down at the end of a run - both edges rail into the snow - more or less throwing you on your haed - it happens so abruptly -

 

If you watch World Cup Racing you'll notice many of these racers have the same problem - the ski will dig in when a softer patch of snow is crossed and then when the edges hit an icy section this causes the ski to bounce off the snow - they get away with it most of the time  - but many times they don't -

 

The Head Super Shape is not a racing ski - it's a recreational ski - and the above tune does not work well with it - the ski is useless for speeds over 25 mph - has very little reactive edge set to it generally - but you can get some reaction out of it if - you make your edge set's extremely quick -

 

Next year I plan on reducing the side bevel to 2 - 1 or even 0 - and increase the base bevel to a full 1 degree and at least make these  overly damp - almost dead feeling - unstable at speed ski's - at least recreationaly ski -able -

 

I doubt very much that all World Cup Racer's are using the 3 degree side bevel - Lindsy Vonn seems to be the only racer I've watched that can hold a complete full turn without her ski's bouncing all over the place -

 

maybe it's just her Rossi's or maybe her husband knows how to tune better than most - Have know idea -

 

 

 

 

 



 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpedges View Post

Individual tastes in tune vary of course, but I ski my supershape 170s tuned 0.5 / 3 and love them.  As recreational carvers go, they're pretty responsive and hold well on firm east coast surfaces.  

 

Before you takes yours to 1/2 or 1/1, you might take a true bar to them and also make a quick pass to remove any remaining hanging burr to see if there were issues with the previous tune. 

 

Whatever tune you end up with, enjoy your new supershapes!



 

post #27 of 85

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Johnson View Post

 

I doubt very much that all World Cup Racer's are using the 3 degree side bevel - Lindsy Vonn seems to be the only racer I've watched that can hold a complete full turn without her ski's bouncing all over the place -

 

maybe it's just her Rossi's or maybe her husband knows how to tune better than most - Have know idea - 


I'm pretty sure Lindsy uses a 0/5 or similar tune. I remember reading an article about her edges and seeing those numbers. Most WC racers use 0 - .5 base and a 4-5 degree side edge for slalom.

post #28 of 85

Something is defintely wrong with your tune or you have a serious stance alignment problem.  What you describe has absolutley nothing To do with the 3 degree side edge bevel. I guarantee you it is an issue with your bases or base edge only not your side edge if in fact it is not a stnce alignment issue.  

 

Many WC slalom racers use a 4,5 and yes even 6 degree side edge. 3 degree side is is by no means considered extreme either on a recreational nor WC level.

 

Every pair of skis we own are tuned with a 3 degree side edge from Powder skis to Race Stock Slalom skis and everything in between. They all ski perfectly. (Coincidentally, I have 4 pair of Head skis, Supershape Speed,  i.SL RD, Monster 88 & MOJO 94) None of these skis skied well until I retuned them with much less base edge bevel and increased the side edge bevel to 3 degrees. All came alive and are fabulous now after the bevel changes.

 

As has been mentioned, check your bases with a true bar. If you have any concavity in the tip or tail area and they were tuned with a standard base beveler (SVST, Beast or others where the foot of the tool rests in the low point in the base) then your skis will be underbase edge beveled in the tip and tail and will ski very unruly.

 

The other issue mentioned was a hanging burr and this is common culprit. Although a ski with a hanging burr does not ski right on hard icy snow either. The next to last step in the side edge tuning process is to run an arkansas stone flat against the base edge with medium pressure from tip to tail keeping the stone in contact with the base edge.  Many tuners either don't know this step or just get in a hurry and forget to do it. finally you should use a fine gummi stone with absolutley no pressure and run it down the edge at a 45 degree angle (I MEAN NO PRESSURE!!!)

 

IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL STEP TO GET YOUr SKIS PREDICTABLE & SMOOTH! 


 


Edited by Atomicman - 6/24/2009 at 01:00 am GMT


Edited by Atomicman - 6/24/2009 at 01:03 am GMT


Edited by Atomicman - 6/24/2009 at 01:06 am GMT
post #29 of 85

I have some iSupsrShape World Cups.  I've only lightly tiled them as they have very few days on them, maybe 3 since I got them from Finndog.  They take some "pop" to get them out of a turn regardless of the surface, but don't feel all that different from other skis designed for tight turns.  I have more than a few.  As for top speed of 25 mph, with a radius of 12 they are far from ideal for high speed arcs, but I can assure you they are capable of topping about 40 MPH with my 170 pound frame over them.  True that it is on the edge of catastrophe, but

WHAT A RUSH!!!!!!!!!!!

post #30 of 85

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Something is defintely wrong with your tune or you have a serious stance alignment problem.  What you describe has absolutley nothing To do with the 3 degree side edge bevel. I guarantee you it is an issue with your bases or base edge only not your side edge if in fact it is not a stnce alignment issue.  

 

Many WC slalom racers use a 4,5 and yes even 6 degree side edge. 3 degree side is is by no means considered extreme either on a recreational nor WC level.

 

Every pair of skis we own are tuned with a 3 degree side edge from Powder skis to Race Stock Slalom skis and everything in between. They all ski perfectly. (Coincidentally, I have 4 pair of Head skis, Supershape Speed,  i.SL RD, Monster 88 & MOJO 94) None of these skis skied well until I retuned them with much less base edge bevel and increased the side edge bevel to 3 degrees. All came alive and are fabulous now after the bevel changes.

 

As has been mentioned, check your bases with a true bar. If you have any concavity in the tip or tail area and they were tuned with a standard base beveler (SVST, Beast or others where the foot of the tool rests in the low point in the base) then your skis will be underbase edge beveled in the tip and tail and will ski very unruly.

 

The other issue mentioned was a hanging burr and this is common culprit. Although a ski with a hanging burr does not ski right on hard icy snow either. The next to last step in the side edge tuning process is to run an arkansas stone flat against the base edge with medium pressure from tip to tail keeping the stone in contact with the base edge.  Many tuners either don't know this step or just get in a hurry and forget to do it. finally you should use a fine gummi stone with absolutley no pressure and run it down the edge at a 45 degree angle (I MEAN NO PRESSURE!!!)

 

IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL STEP TO GET YOUr SKIS PREDICTABLE & SMOOTH! 


 

   I had the ski's tuned at Rennstall Tech Center ParkCity, Utah before the season began - they did a base grind and then hand tuned them -

 

As to your suggestion - I blackened the edges and put contrasting color lines horizontaly across the base - and took a steel flat file to them - 

 

The tips 6" down and 6" down up from the tail ends have postive base (.75 I assume) bevel with a slight concavity - the base grind Rennstall's did put some texture on the base but did not get the ski flat - this surprized me - the rest of the ski between the 6" at the tips and tails has 0 base bevel and is apparently even more concave - I assume the other ski is probally the same -

 

But why would 0 base bevel and some concavity in the mid-section of the ski cause it to Rail so badly ?

 

 

 

I am aware of my alignment problem - I have extremely high arches and this causes my weight to sit on the outside of my boot edges - I've turned the boot cuff's outward as far as posible on my Head Edge 11 ski boots to get my weight more even on the floor - but have not tested this yet  -

 

I've had to be very careful when going from turn to turn to keep my edges turned up enough by bending my ankles sideways in my boots to keep the the outside edges from catching on the snow when starting a new turn - 

 

Iv'e read where it say's concavity in shaped ski's is normal and just to leave it - but I'm beginning to doubt that advice - particulary when the concavity is directly under the feet and mid section of the ski -

 

 

Thank's for the input Atomic -

 

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