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The way we used to do it

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

By one of the best of all time.

 

 

 

 

 

post #2 of 28

Thanks Rick...nice clip.

He taught us big time knee angulation.

post #3 of 28

Stenmark was kind of the best of all times here in our part of the world. The skiing looks great to my eye and those guys still ripp like tigers. What jumps out is the lack of tipping and inclination compared to todays WC skiers on TV. Toeni says himself in one of the clips that maybe the biggest difference between then and now is the way the pist is prepared. Back then I think it was the top 5 in reverced order so in the clips they ski on race tracks in state of the art condition. I have seen clips of guys and gals skiing with bib number 50-70 and that looks completely different.

post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

Thanks Rick...nice clip.

He taught us big time knee angulation.


Yep, it was a needed evil back then.  To make those non turning beasts dance like he is in that video is pretty amazing.  Many differences from modern technique to be seen and analyzed in Theoni's skiing.  To compare and understand how/why the equipment required it. 
 

post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

What jumps out is the lack of tipping and inclination compared to todays WC skiers on TV. Toeni says himself in one of the clips that maybe the biggest difference between then and now is the way the pist is prepared. .



 

Definately right on the tipping/inclination point.  Just couldn't do it back then.  Moving the hips too far inside was a sure fire way to take a quick trip to your inside ski and watch your outside ski track away.  Falling inside was a much bigger problem on those skis.  Keeping the hips over the top of the skis and using knee angulation to edge them was the answer. 

 

As far as the piste prep.  For sure night and day from today.  Not only in hardening the track, as they do now, but in the general grooming of the slope.  Even in this video we can see the uneven surface, how he's bouncing over little bumps/lumps/ridges/rolls as he goes from turn to turn.  I remember back in the 70's racing in Europe on courses that were set right through what could almost be described as mogul fields.  I'm talking DH.  I recall a GS race where I launched off a mogul just as I passed a gate and flew all the way to the next gate.  Tried to land on edge so I could quickly make the needed next turn, but landed so hard I ejected out of both skis and was left standing in my boots.  Racers today who are blessed with these table top smooth tracks have no clue. 

post #6 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

Thanks Rick...nice clip.

He taught us big time knee angulation.

 

Thoeni was a great skier, great enough to overcome an alignment problem that would sideline most potential fis racers and become one of the elite of the wc.  Because of his compensatory movements, he's not an ideal model of skiing movement for the majority of us to learn movements from ... much as we  admire and respect his accomplishments.

post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 

Sharpedges, you're not suggesting the knee angulation you see here is a result of an "alignment problem"?  Answer carefully now, you're in grave danger of digging yourself into a very deep hole.  (intentional play on words

post #8 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

   Falling inside was a much bigger problem on those skis.  Keeping the hips over the top of the skis and using knee angulation to edge them was the answer. 

 


 

 

Rick has this one right.  You were supposed to angulate without tipping....if you fell to the inside it was considered a sloppy mistake.  Proper knee angulated stance meant if the edges let go you slid a bit but didn't go down on the hip. 

 

Of course, wiping out to the downhill side made for a much more impressive crash, flailing those long skis as you went.


Edited by newfydog - 5/11/2009 at 04:57 am GMT
post #9 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Sharpedges, you're not suggesting the knee angulation you see here is a result of an "alignment problem"?  Answer carefully now, you're in grave danger of digging yourself into a very deep hole.  (intentional play on words

 

Rick,

 

The snowpack's gone here in the East and even the sharpest of edges can't delve very deeply into our bedrock.  So, you may just have to wait until December for any tree wells or other deep holes to appear  

 

I was referring to Thoeni's frequent extreme counter which compensated for some genu valgum.

 

I take your comment about knee angulation at face value because in Thoeni's heyday I was being taught the snowplow -- the whole knee-straining enchilada, not a wedge or gliding wedge -- the few days I got to ski every few years.  My only sources of ancient skiing wisdom are Witherell's two books (and some killer snowplow tips from underpaid instructors at summit county spots.)

 

My comment was more that one could find other exemplars of technique from that same era with alignment closer to that of most strong skiers.  In case it wasn't clear enough, I greatly admire Thoeni's accomplishments -- the clock is the ultimate arbiter of goodness in skiing and the clock smiled on him.

 

Newfy,

 

In the dual slalom Thoeni-Stenmark video that hit epic recently, is Stenmark's fall to the inside a "sloppy mistake" or a shrewd calculated risk by a skier rapidly overtaking his competitor with only feet to go before the finish line and the highest of stakes? 

 

It made for excellent drama either way.

post #10 of 28

 

Quote:

 

Newfy,

 

In the dual slalom Thoeni-Stenmark video that hit epic recently, is Stenmark's fall to the inside a "sloppy mistake" or a shrewd calculated risk by a skier rapidly overtaking his competitor with only feet to go before the finish line and the highest of stakes? 

 

It made for excellent drama either way.



 

Didn't see that, ( you have a link?)  but I do recall that the first "Bode Fall", where you fall but still win the race, was done by Stenmark in the 1980 Olympic GS.  He went on his hip in the first run but still won the race.  Unheard of at the time, Ingemar could make a straight ski work like a modern ski, and in retrospect, it should not have been such a shocker.

 

Now, the hip is so close to the snow, and the hand is so often dragging that the hip check move is not so rare.

post #11 of 28

Sharpedges and Rick. Sure there was alignment problems and compensatory movements back then. Still is today. If we think for a second that our skiing will look any better or more efficient in the eyes of our children and grandchildren in 2040 we are insane. I remember how much fun it was watching old skiing movie clips from the 40s in the cinema back in the 70s. Our sport is evolving. We should be looking at what is similair, not what is different. And try to understand why skiers had to ski a certain way in the past. I for one think that Tina Maze's current GS skiing is a nostalgic trip back in time. Note, in a positive way. BTW, if you guys have any old skis and boots lying arround its a valuable experiment to try them out. Todays skis are soooooo much easier to ski on. For the beginner todays gear is heaven sent. For us that know how to ski it makes us lazy.

 

Rick, here is a video of a olympic skier in the 60s. He was at the very top back then. He is still skiing and I caught him on tape while filming local jr's. He must be close to 70. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWacP-qVA-Y

post #12 of 28

I can't believe that you guys are sitting here trying to disassemble one of the greatest ski racers of all time! Must be early onset of the summer blues!

 

What I see are the fundamentals which most of todays jr racers (and some not so jr) could greatly benefit from! Stable core, total control of position (without it being left to the ski to determine) on the course, timing, aggressiveness without being 'over the top'.

 

At least part of this discussion began to compare apples and apples when Stenmark was brought into it. As he was the successor to Thoeni, that comparison is valid! Their equipment was more similar, the courses were set alike, and the hill prep was consistent.

 

One of the greatest differences between the two skiers was their size and total strength- Thoeni was  considerably shorter and slighter of stature than Stenmark, who was 6'3" - 6'4", and had a race weight of almost 190 lbs! So obviously there are going to be some technical differences in how each skied.

 

But both had the same core fundamentals, which as equipment evolved, remained constant.

 

I have had the pleasure of skiing with Stenmark on many occasions over the past 3 decades, and can say that his adaptation to what we refer to as contemporary equipment has not changed his foundation- but I'd challenge just about anybody to ski as cleanly, with the aplomb, and power / precision which he still does today. And I would venture a guess that Thoeni does equally as well!

post #13 of 28

Good posting vail snopro. In the local press Stenmark allways remained a very shy down to earth young extremly fit and talented skier. I remember the tight races between him and Thoeni and especially the parallel slalom that ended the WC. But it was not only Stenmark and Thoeni, remember Piero Gros?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZnHg6Pt-Oo

post #14 of 28

In October 1972 I was on a bus, headed from Switzerland to Cervinia with my college ski team.  We had a few Middle Eastern students along, and after the Munich attacks, one never knew how it would go at customs and immigration.

 

We stopped at the Italian border and a grim looking immigration agent came on, and walked down the aisle giving us all a good glare.  He stopped at my seat, looked at me, and pulled my Lange Comp boots down from the overhead compartment.  With his best Itallian flare, he held them up and proclaimed  GUSTAVO THOENI !!!  RRROLANDO THOENI!!!!.

 

He then put my boots back and sent us on our way.


Edited by newfydog - 5/11/2009 at 10:43 pm GMT
post #15 of 28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycy4gwAhPig&feature=player_embedded

 

Here is the link to the parallel SL between Gustavo and Ingemar... Just like the Pro-style races of the World Pro Skiing Tour

post #16 of 28

And here we are, taking it back to the previous generation. This is the 1960 Winter Olympics at Squaw Valley, Calif.

 

Remember the comments about hill prep and grooming? Check this out!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jjigXExUP0

 

 

Dig the music!!!!!

post #17 of 28

Here is some great footage from the 1968 Grenoble Olympics, which JC Killy swept on his way to skiing superstardom.

 

The footage of the SL is especially interesting, as the weather conditions were extremely poor.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7dCVc8Dntw

post #18 of 28

These guys are all great athletes just of different eras.  The 60's guys did it with leather boots and wood skis, and the courses were set for that type of equipment. 

 

Thornie and Stenmark had solid gates they couldn't ski through effectively.  Their courses were set with those limits in mind. 

 

Their techniques are res poses to the course conditions and equipment.  You could probably give all those guys free heeled skinny skis and by the end of the day they would still make a race of it. ( I put my $ on the 60's guy his stuff is just a couple of generations removed from the skinnys.)

post #19 of 28

Another Thoeni story:

 

Those Persenico (Spaulding) skls were not exactly mainstream.  They were some Italian thing he used.

 

The World Cup came to North America and a trailer full of the Swiss team's skis burned up.  They still raced the next day----they all borrowed skis from other racers.  Edmond Bruggemund finished second to Gustavo----on a pair of Gustavo's skis.  The world suddenly realized the skis were really good.

 

Sort of like Stenmark, skiing GS on 205 Elans, when no one else used Elans, or a ski that short.

 

 

post #20 of 28

When Stenmark went on his tear, and won about 13 GS's in a row, his primary ski was a 200CM. This really flew in the face of conventional wisdom of the time.

 

There is a story (unconfirmed) that a pair of Stenmark's race GS skis went missing. Rumor has it that a particular ski company took them apart, layer by layer, to find out how they were made... Soon there after, this company produced some skis extremely similar to Stenmark's, provided them to a pair of their top racers, who suddenly had marked improvements in their GS results, including a World Championship GS title. (If you know any history of ski racing, you should be able to figure out who I might be referring to.) 

 

I was given a pair of these skis by a friend working in the race room at this company. I used them to race GS for about 4 seasons. I called them my "sharks". I have never to this day had a pair of skis so fast, or that held so well when the pressure was really on. The more I beat them up, the faster they got!

 

I won't say that I won 13 WC GS's, but I was rarely beaten locally or regionally when I had those sticks on my feet! It was a sad day when I finally bent them and had to retire them.

post #21 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post

I have had the pleasure of skiing with Stenmark on many occasions over the past 3 decades

You could tell me you've got a month of free heli time. You could tell me you get all your gear free, a season ahead of time. I'm not sure that any of that would make me as envious as the statement above.

 

post #22 of 28
Quote:

(If you know any history of ski racing, you should be able to figure out who I might be referring to.)

 Must be guys named Steven & Phil.

post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 

Wow, VSP,,, that footage of Killy!!!  Have you watched the Slalom bit closely?  Remember the controversy about him missing the gate but not getting called for it?  Watch right at the end of the run, just after he gets on his tails.  I swear, it looks like he skis right by one. 

post #24 of 28

I still hold a candle to the "Old Guard" of ski racing.  It is a completely different ball game:

A) Since the advent of rapid gates

 

and

 

B) Since the several iterations of ski technology both shape and flex.

 

It is amazing how those guys and gals stepped those 200 + CM SLs through the flush lightning fast.  They couldn't just smack the gates and go over them like they can today.

 

post #25 of 28
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

I still hold a candle to the "Old Guard" of ski racing.  It is a completely different ball game:

 

It is amazing how those guys and gals stepped those 200 + CM SLs through the flush lightning fast.  They couldn't just smack the gates and go over them like they can today.

 



 

Yep, crgildart, those planks wouldn't turn much on their own, so between the carves you had to pivot the beginning of the turn, or step the finish.  Steering was a ticket to slowville back then too, just like today. 

 

The inside/flat step was the golden move back then.  Today most people don't even know what that is.  The basket of needed skills that were used on a regular basis was larger back then.  Now you can just tip and ride a good percentage of the time.  Could back then too, but the ride was a real hair blower. 

 

Something everybody can take away from the skiing in these videos and apply to their own skiing all the time:  look at the balance they display.  A classic skill that carries as much importance today as it did when skiing was born. 

post #26 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Wow, VSP,,, that footage of Killy!!!  Have you watched the Slalom bit closely?  Remember the controversy about him missing the gate but not getting called for it?  Watch right at the end of the run, just after he gets on his tails.  I swear, it looks like he skis right by one. 



 

There wasn't any controversy over Killy missing a gate.  It was Karl Schranz.  What happened was that Schranz had the fastest time and was declared the Olympic Slalom Champion.  Killy was somewhat surprised because he didn't think it was possible for Schranz to have beaten him with as much time as he did, but he said nothing.  Ultimately, Schranz was disqualified for missing a gate and Killy was declared the champion.

 

The controversy was actually not over the missed gate itself.  Schranz didn't complete his second run, but claimed it was due to course worker interference.  As a result, he was allowed to rerun and he was faster than Killy at that point.  However, the race jury went back and examined the footage of the original interference claim and determined (3 to 2) that he missed a gate prior to the interference and therefore should have been disqualified regardless of whether interference occured later.  As a result, his re-run was disallowed and he was disqualified on the basis of his original second run.


Edited by geoffda - 5/12/2009 at 08:23 pm GMT


Edited by geoffda - 5/12/2009 at 08:31 pm GMT
post #27 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

 



 

There wasn't any controversy over Killy missing a gate.  It was Karl Schranz.  What happened was that Schranz had the fastest time and was declared the Olympic Slalom Champion.  Killy was somewhat surprised because he didn't think it was possible for Schranz to have beaten him with as much time as he did, but he said nothing.  Ultimately, Schranz was disqualified for missing a gate and Killy was declared the champion.

 

The controversy was actually not over the missed gate itself.  Schranz didn't complete his second run, but claimed it was due to course worker interference.  As a result, he was allowed to rerun and he was faster than Killy at that point.  However, the race jury went back and examined the footage of the original interference claim and determined (3 to 2) that he missed a gate prior to the interference and therefore should have been disqualified regardless of whether interference occured later.  As a result, his re-run was disallowed and he was disqualified on the basis of his original second run.


Edited by geoffda - 5/12/2009 at 08:23 pm GMT


Edited by geoffda - 5/12/2009 at 08:31 pm GMT

History repeted itself not long ago when schönfelder claimed a course worker disturbed his first run. For some strange reason he got a new run even though it was obvious that he only used it as an excuse and with those points gained he later in the year won the SL WC over palander.

post #28 of 28

Let's take this back even further- Here is some footage of Henri Oreiller of France, winning the Olympic DH in 1948! This must have been pretty exciting!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHOfIr1_h-8&feature=related

 

And here is some DH footage of the 1936 Olympics. Note the narrow trails! They were racing on trails as narrow as a single ski length!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9_JRtgnuw&feature=related

 

And here is Zeno Colo (Italy) winning the DH in the Oslo Olympics in 1952

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRnWjPUU59M&feature=related

 


Edited by vail snopro - 5/14/2009 at 02:59 am GMT
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