EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Off-Season Sports & The Lighter Side › Cycling › Dolly Sods closed to MTB
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dolly Sods closed to MTB

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

Sounds good at first, Wilderness areas are good, no?

http://www.trailgraphics.com/2009/04/monongahela-nf-wilderness-areas-on-google-maps/

 

Not to West Virginia MTBers, 75 miles of trails lost.

http://imba.com/news/news_releases/04_09/04_09_Omnibus_Law.html

 

Maybe BWPA can build a hiker log jam.

post #2 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post

Sounds good at first, Wilderness areas are good, no?

http://www.trailgraphics.com/2009/04/monongahela-nf-wilderness-areas-on-google-maps/

 

Not to West Virginia MTBers, 75 miles of trails lost.

http://imba.com/news/news_releases/04_09/04_09_Omnibus_Law.html

 

Maybe BWPA can build a hiker log jam.

 

Wilderness areas are bad untill they allow bikes.

 

but I say let poach that shit at night on like really crappy bikes and run from any forest rangers we encounter. who cares we lost the land already, and they can have my bikes facist.

 

FYI I am being serious, extra points if we document hikers and horseback riders destroying the enviorment!

 

 

post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 

I would never give up my bike without a fight!

 

Perhaps we could equip the bikes with cell phone activated tazer devices?

 

I try to use diplomacy, when possible. I know several of the local Rangers. Yes, I actually loaned my 19.2V drill to a Ranger. She wanted to put new postings, beneath the plexiglass, on the Wilderness area sign across from our property.

 

I've had conversations with several Rangers. Essentially what was said was they didn't agree with the policies. And well, if the Ranger is your friend....

 

Anyway, if I was ticketed, I would promptly display it at the Hellbender bar. I am sure that the patrons would buy me enough empathy drinks, that I would have to be carried home.

 

FWIW, the trails at Dolly Sods aren't that great. Its the thought of losing the ground. Races such as the 24 Hours of Canaan, Timber Crit, and Revenge of the Rattlesnake, all ran through part of Dolly Sods.

 

 

post #4 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post

I would never give up my bike without a fight!

 

Perhaps we could equip the bikes with cell phone activated tazer devices?

 

I try to use diplomacy, when possible. I know several of the local Rangers. Yes, I actually loaned my 19.2V drill to a Ranger. She wanted to put new postings, beneath the plexiglass, on the Wilderness area sign across from our property.

 

I've had conversations with several Rangers. Essentially what was said was they didn't agree with the policies. And well, if the Ranger is your friend....

 

Anyway, if I was ticketed, I would promptly display it at the Hellbender bar. I am sure that the patrons would buy me enough empathy drinks, that I would have to be carried home.

 

FWIW, the trails at Dolly Sods aren't that great. Its the thought of losing the ground. Races such as the 24 Hours of Canaan, Timber Crit, and Revenge of the Rattlesnake, all ran through part of Dolly Sods.

 

 

 

wilderness designnation sucks!!!

 

we need a day to get every mountian biker in the nation to poach their local wilderness en mass. July 4th maybe? The law needs change and the proper channels won work on this just complete and total ignorance of the law will.

post #5 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

 

wilderness designation sucks!!!

 

we need a day to get every mountain biker in the nation to poach their local wilderness en mass. July 4th maybe? The law needs change and the proper channels won work on this just complete and total ignorance of the law will.


The trouble is that the Wilderness Act is an act of Congress.  It prohibits mechanized vehicles.  To change the law would be very difficult, and various riders about oil and minerals "critical to our national security" would be stuck in there too.
 

 

Perhaps an enlightened court could interpret a bike to be no more mechanized than say a kayak with a foot controlled rudder, and that would be the ruling we need.  I doubt it though: the rise of DH bikes has caused much more trail damage than the early mtb's did.

 

Until then, I have to say it pisses me off to see a big party of hunters go in with an entire pack string, shoot the elk, burn the firewood, leave pile of horse shit, human shit, and sometimes their beer cans, while it is illegal to gently roll through the trail on a bike.

 


Edited by newfydog - 4/24/2009 at 11:23 pm GMT
post #6 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

 

 I doubt it though: the rise of DH bikes has caused much more trail damage than the early mtb's did.

 


Source? I doubt this very much. Who is going to ride a DH bike in a Wilderness area anyway? They kinda need a chairlift or shuttle. DH bikes might get blamed for more damage, but I doubt they are a real problem. Just another image problem with people that are unreasonable or uninformed.

post #7 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 


Source? I doubt this very much. Who is going to ride a DH bike in a Wilderness area anyway? They kinda need a chairlift or shuttle. DH bikes might get blamed for more damage, but I doubt they are a real problem. Just another image problem with people that are unreasonable or uninformed.

 

when I think about riding in areas before they got turned to wilderness, I think ridinng 25-30 miles on a XC bike to get out enjoy the everything the trail can offer. Not just blasting down the downhills.

post #8 of 21
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 


Source? I doubt this very much. Who is going to ride a DH bike in a Wilderness area anyway? They kinda need a chairlift or shuttle. DH bikes might get blamed for more damage, but I doubt they are a real problem. Just another image problem with people that are unreasonable or uninformed.



You're probably right about the wilderness area---they won't see to much DH riding, but the trail damage is real.  The rows of gullies from the railroad grade down to town in Nelson BC weren't caused by elk.  There's some trails in Fernie which are darn near slash and burn.....put in a trail, ride it until the gully is too deep, put in another one.  Local groups are addressing these problems, but it doesn't help the image.  I'm amazed you haven't seen it.

 

Then there are the ripples that form near every hard breaking turn...they didn't form before the suspension got so good. 

Quote:

 

post #9 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 


Source? I doubt this very much. Who is going to ride a DH bike in a Wilderness area anyway? They kinda need a chairlift or shuttle. DH bikes might get blamed for more damage, but I doubt they are a real problem. Just another image problem with people that are unreasonable or uninformed.



You're probably right about the wilderness area---they won't see to much DH riding, but the trail damage is real.  The rows of gullies from the railroad grade down to town in Nelson BC weren't caused by elk.  There's some trails in Fernie which are darn near slash and burn.....put in a trail, ride it until the gully is too deep, put in another one.  Local groups are addressing these problems, but it doesn't help the image.  I'm amazed you haven't seen it.

 

Then there are the ripples that form near every hard breaking turn...they didn't form before the suspension got so good. 

 


actually those ripples form from bad suspesnion that is causing brake jacking. Good suspesnion doesnt do that.

post #10 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
 Then there are the ripples that form near every hard breaking turn...they didn't form before the suspension got so good. 

 


I've been racing DH since 1989. We had braking bumps in 1989, but NO suspension whatsoever.

post #11 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 


I've been racing DH since 1989. We had braking bumps in 1989, but NO suspension whatsoever.


Hmmm....must just be the traffic.
 

 

So what about the gullies from going straight down the fall line.  That wasn't too popular before the monster DH bikes came along.

post #12 of 21

Have I mentioned before that it's all about trail design? A hiking trail straight down the fallline will also become a gully. Bikes shouldn't just ride willy nilly all around the pace, and hikers shouldn't just go wherever they please either. It sounds to me like you have irresponsible bikers there. Can't blame the bike for that.

 

Depending on soil type, a trail should not exceed 10% grade, and should be half the grade or less of the slope it is built on. The trail should also have grade-reversals so that water cannot get a long run down the fallline.

post #13 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Have I mentioned before that it's all about trail design? A hiking trail straight down the fallline will also become a gully. Bikes shouldn't just ride willy nilly all around the pace, and hikers shouldn't just go wherever they please either. It sounds to me like you have irresponsible bikers there. Can't blame the bike for that.

 

Depending on soil type, a trail should not exceed 10% grade, and should be half the grade or less of the slope it is built on. The trail should also have grade-reversals so that water cannot get a long run down the fallline.


I know that.  I work on trail crews, trail access committees and been to NORBA and IMBA trail building clinics.
 

 

I'm sure all those DH races you did met those standards.

 

There are trails in BC where every metre exceeds 10%.  They came about because of DH bikes.

 

The more I see of it the less hope I have of maintaining access.

post #14 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

 

I'm sure all those DH races you did met those standards.


Not likely. Most of those courses are total disasters nowadays. They did not know how to design a trail then. Ir aced the National Championships at Deer valley one year in the 90s. In the course of the week that we trained, the course went from flat to a gully so deep that you couldn't pedal without hitting your feet on the sides. Not good at all. This was before we had anything that could be called a DH bike. My bike had 3" travel at the time and rim brakes.

 

edit: just wanted to add - none of the race courses are in National Forests. They are all on ski hills - not exactly pristine environments. If the Forests are closed to motorized access DH bikes are not likely going there anyway.

post #15 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post

 

  They came about because of DH bikes.

 

The more I see of it the less hope I have of maintaining access.

DH Bikes... the Snowboard of the cycling world. "G*d Damn kids, get the F*** OFF my lawn!!!"

post #16 of 21

 

It is a really bum deal that mountain biking gets the short end of the stick when it comes to wilderness designation.  Arguably, bikes and their riders have less impact than other trail users; certainly less than horses.  But as newfydog pointed out already, it's an issue of being 'mechanized', not misguided resource protection...this same stipulation for wilderness also applies to hand carts and anything else considered mechanized.
 
What hasn't been mentioned here is this section of the new legislation that calls for enhanced trail opportunities and is certainly a win for all trail users on the MNF:
 
[Edited to eliminate redundancy] SEC. 1004 (ENHANCED TRAIL OPPORTUNITIES) of Wild Monongahela Wilderness Act states that:

(a) Secretary of Agriculture, in consultation with interested parties, shall develop a plan to provide for enhanced nonmotorized recreation trail (means designated for hiking, bicycling, and equestrian use) opportunities on lands not designated as wilderness within the Monongahela National Forest.
 
(b) [Within] two years after the…enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Agriculture shall…report [to congress] on the implementation of the plan required under subsection (a), including the identification of priority trails for development.
 
(c) In considering possible closure and decommissioning of a Forest Service road...the Secretary of Agriculture…may consider converting the road to nonmotorized uses to enhance recreational opportunities within the Monongahela National Forest.

The full text of Subtitle A, Wild Monongahela Wilderness is posted here: http://www.trailgraphics.com/2009/04/wild-monongahela-wilderness/

 

post #17 of 21
Thread Starter 

Hi There Plaincab, and welcome to Epicski!

 

I couldn't find the statute listing enhanced opportunities at Dolly Sods, Otter Creek, or anywhere in that vicinity.

 

I do know several of the negotiators, that policitized on behalf of the MTB community. It is a done deal, Wilderness area, closed to MTB's.

 

It is even speculated that the NPS is going to bulldoze the old railroad beds out. So, it can 'revert' back to nature.

 

Makes perfect sense, run a bulldozer through the Sods. Level out railroad beds that have been gone since the early 1900's.  

 

Maybe we could just erode it down with our MTB tires and save some diesel!

post #18 of 21

Section 1004 is not specific about where these "enhanced opportunities" will occur on the forest.  It would be nice to think that the Forest Service would try to establish new trail in the vicinity of what was closed under the wilderness designations...but that's not specified, so time will tell.

 

Not real likely that the Forest Service will run a dozer through at this point since that would clearly be a mechanized operation.  In a similar situation on the Laurel Fork and Cranberry Wilderness areas, the pre-existing road and rail grades were left in place; they're now largely eroded, washed out, and the vegetation has moved back in.  Give it a few years and Mother Nature will take care of it.

post #19 of 21

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaincab View Post
 
It is a really bum deal that mountain biking gets the short end of the stick when it comes to wilderness designation.  Arguably, bikes and their riders have less impact than other trail users; certainly less than horses.  But as newfydog pointed out already, it's an issue of being 'mechanized', not misguided resource protection...

 

I think it's also who has the most clout. At least here in New Jersey, the equestrian set is part of the more politically connected. We've had a lot of trails closed to MTB.

 

What's really funny is when I joined the AMC. I started getting their junk mail and realized how much they are lobbying to get MTBs banned. I dropped my membership with an E-mail alluding to my status as the enemy.  My wife and I and our crowd were raised to slow down around hikers, avoid riding through wet ground and my wife being an equestrian herself, trained me on how to behave around horses.

 

post #20 of 21
Thread Starter 

Well, Dolly Sods sounds pretty closed to me....

 

Here are the new statutes.

 

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=wildView&WID=141&tab=Wilderness%20Laws

 

Its all a big smoke screen. Did you know that some of the biggest supporters of Wilderness areas are....MINING COMPANIES?

 

While we sit here and gripe back and forth, about equestrians, the mine companies are working on getting water divergence rights. The Mine Companies support Wilderness conversion in one area, Dolly Sods for example. So, they made some nice new political allies. Now, it should be alright that they divert a river in order to mine in another area, right?

 

I'll try and get pics of the bulldozers when they come through, to level off the railroad beds.

 

post #21 of 21
Quote:

I'll try and get pics of the bulldozers when they come through, to level off the railroad beds.

In the meantime back to horses which ARE allowed in wilderness areas.

 

Each Spring our local trail system is damaged by horseback riders before the trails have had a chance to drain & dry.  These trails were built about seven years ago with bikes in mind.  They are multi-use trails open to bikes, foot traffic & horses, but not motorized vehicles & not a Wilderness area.  This section of trail is used each year for the uphill bike portion of the Xterra off road triathalon.  Thousands of dollars & labor hours are spent to repair the trails each season before the event can take place.

 

Once the main trail is damaged, users tend to go along the edges where it is smoother widening the trail & adding to the erosion.  Once the hoof prints dry, even hikers are at risk of twisting an ankle, & running is out of the question.  A few years ago I cracked a $200 rim descending this trail.

 

Every Spring each trail head is marked with these teepee signs, yet the horse people just knock them over or move them & ride anyway.  I wish they would just close the trail till June, or whenever the trails are dry enough, but apparently these are just guidelines & not enforcible.

 

This year the USFS even posted a detailed explanation of why this area is so sensitive.  The soil is like clay, & so sticky you couldn't ride a bike on it for 100 yards when it's wet even if you wanted to.  Once the horses do their damage they make the trail unusable for others, & even endanger the health of their own animals.  So when someone like BWPA advocates "Monkey Wrench" tactics, maybe he has a point.  Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.

 

And who doesn't think this is disgusting?

 

Thanks for letting me vent,

JF


Edited by 4ster - 5/20/2009 at 06:51 pm GMT
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Cycling
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Off-Season Sports & The Lighter Side › Cycling › Dolly Sods closed to MTB