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Where have the binding risers gone? - Page 2

post #31 of 47

On paper, the plate is not needed for deep snow.  It gives you leverage (and hence more torque per effort) at the expense of added risk of injury in order to more effortlessly tip skis onto their edge.  On a hard surface, like ice, you are torquing about the inside edge and the wider the ski the more torque you have to work against.  On a soft surface that inside edge goes down into the snow and your pivot point is more underfoot. 

 

I wouldn't bother with a lifter on a deep snow ski.

post #32 of 47

A-la-carte lifters have been replaced by ski-binding systems. Very few carving-oriented skis are available flat. Lift still exists, in the form of systems and hostage plates. It hasn't gone anywhere but into devices that will make a single manufacturer more money.

 

For skis that would be used for 3D snow, the preference is toward skis that avoid grabbiness and allow for predictable pressure in soft conditions. The move toward rockered cambers and straighter/reverse sidecut makes for skis that will not engage into an ankle-shearing turn with each soft ripple. Lower stand height goes along with that, providing the skis with less leverage over you (a lever works both ways - both to the skier's advantage in tipping the skis and to the ground's ability to exert pressure over the skier's legs).

 

 

post #33 of 47

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by exracer View Post

 

That's not true. 

 

Risers actually make it harder to get the ski on edge because the leg has to move through a longer arc to achieve the same edge angle as someone without a riser, or to look at it a different way, a skier with a riser achieves less edge angle with the same range of motion as a skier without a riser.  If you do the math using a figure of 18", for discussion's sake, for the distance from the top of the shin to the base of the ski, then the top of the shin will move through an arc of 14.1" to achieve an edge angle of 45 degrees.  If you add a riser that raises the top of the shin to 18.75" above the base of the ski and move the shin though the exact same 14.1" arc, you end up achieving an edge angle of only 43 degrees.

 

 

That is true in a geometric sense, but you're not considering the added leverage the lift provides, which makes it easier to get to a given angle.  The increase in arc goes like L*theta, where L is the amount of lift, and theta is the angle.  The edging torque reduction from lift goes like L*sin(theta).  Up until about 25-30 deg, theta and sin(theta) are about equal, so the increase in arc is pretty much offset by a reduction in torque.  My personal observation is that the skier notices the torque reduction much more than they notice the increase in arc, simply because the torque reduction makes the skis feel narrower.

 

I think when people say that risers make a ski easier to put on edge, they are talking about effort, which ties right into the torque the skier has to apply to the ski.  As long as the skier has the range of motion to deal with the small increase in arc, they will more likely notice that they have more authority over the edges with some extra lift.

post #34 of 47

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanakry View Post

FWIW we where at Boyne highlands for the annual downhill and it snowed 7-10 inches over night and they cancelled the race.  All of us went out and skied in the powder.  Everyone in our group was on race GS or SL ski's.  I was on my Blizzards.

Clearly what a group of old guy racers in Michigan are doing is relevant to what is fashionable in skiing.

 

The last time I was at a race that was canceled due to snow, I went back to the truck for appropriate skis.  That was a really nice two foot day and I'm very glad I had appropriate skis.

 

Ghost was being sarcastic, but he was absolutely correct.  Nothing is dorkier than skiing race skis on a powder day.  Skiing race skis on a bulletproof day is dorky enough.

post #35 of 47

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post

 

Clearly what a group of old guy racers in Michigan are doing is relevant to what is fashionable in skiing.

 

 Nothing is dorkier than skiing race skis on a powder day.  Skiing race skis on a bulletproof day is dorky enough.



 

And we all know, nothing is more important than being up to Epic fashion standards.   If you are dorky, a good time is simply not possible.

post #36 of 47

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

 

If I lived out west where the snow is deep, I would have fat skis, and I would probably eschew a lifter for those snow conditions too, but come on!  For Ontario and Quebec skiing?.

 

A lot of it depends on what you happen to have been hitting recently. My frame of reference is Maine, which is generally pretty similar to your locale, conditions-wise. A few years ago, I would definitely have agreed with you (rolling on the floor laughing), but recently I've started to change my mind. This year, for example, I had three days with between 12 and 24" of new snow. I enjoyed these conditions far more on what passes with me for a soft-snow ski (114 - 75 - 102, but very easy flexing) than I would have on my carving skis, but probably would have had even more fun on something in the mid 80s or higher. And sometimes spring conditions would favor a wider, more crud-oriented ski. So I don't think its too weird for an easterner to have a wider ski in his or her quiver... especially if you do any out-of-bounds stuff... as long as you have a narrower carving ski available as your main squeeze.

post #37 of 47

What I see happening in the recreational community is that the skis are not always matched to the skier ability. If you put a 17m radius ski with 40mm of lift on an intermediate, they are still likely to want to skid their turns. Someone that isn't going to or want to carve, should be on the deck. Someone who wants to rail turns with their hip on the snow, needs lifts.

 

Knowing what you want to get out of your ski is key to deciding if you need a lift or not. Skidding turns isn't a bad thing. If we all actually carved all our turns we would all be going a lot faster. Most skiers don't need to go faster, they need better control.

 

To each his own. I have race skis that I race on and they have maximum lift. I have all mountain skis and they have some lift, and I have powder skis without lift. I like the way the all ski, but I wouldn't take the race skis in powder or the powder skis in a race. Although I did take my Atomic Powder Plus 165cm in a speed trap at Davos and went 60 mph! I have a huge quiver so each ski, binding and lift system is set up specifically for what I am going to do that day. Smaller quivers require some compromise.

 

If I had to choose one ski from what I have, to do everything, it would be my K2 Hippy Stinx 168cm, mounted tele, which have a substantial lift (tele boots are wide), are 95mm underfoot and twin tipped. Enough float for most powder days, enough lift to edge on most Colorado hard  pack (I'm in CO but from NH, these would be tough on real ice), short enough to ski the trees and bumps.

 

But life is too short for small quiver. I ski on 10 pairs during the course of the year with another 5 that just hang around waiting.

 

post #38 of 47

For those Do-it-Yourself types out there I would recommend Tap Plastics for the materials needed to make your own lifters.  This Page has a bunch of raw materials that might be considered. 

 

I've some old Fischer Demo Railflex bindings on Monster 82's that weigh a bunch and have decided to put some recently obtained Look bindings on them instead.  I kinda like the lift under the Demo Railflex as I have wide feet (and therefore wide boots, plus stretching) so I decided to put lifters under the Looks.  The lift under the Demo Railflex has my boot sole a whopping 35mm off the ski's topsheet - but I haven't booted out all season (a first for me).  I don't even see 'boot drag marks' beside my ski tracks any more.

 

At a local Tap Plastics outlet store I bought some 8mm ABS (Black) and some 10mm Foamed PVC (White).  The ABS seems tough enough though it was a bit heavy.  The Foamed PVC was very light but I wasn't sure it would hold screws all that well. 

 

Decided to go with the Foamed PVC after putting a binding screw into it 9mm deep and trying to pull it out with a crowbar.  Held firmly - better than most woods.  I also froze both plastics in the freezer and banged on them with a hammer to check for brittleness... no issues there.  I'm told there may be an issue with ultraviolet radiation over time so I'll probably put a coat of paint over them before mounting.

 

Already I've cut the pieces to size and drilled the holes.  I'll be mounting the bindings to the PVC and mounting the PVC to the skis with a slightly wider/longer screw pattern than the binding mount points.  I also chose to 'cant' the plastic plates by slicing 2-degrees off the surface with the table saw.  A little more shaping and rounding of the sharp edges is still needed.  I'm going with a single 10mm thick piece. I think the toe piece is ~13mm with the heel at ~20mm so I'll be ~23mm toe and ~30mm heel unless I decide to increase the toe enough to flatten out the Ramp angle (might just do that).

 

Wanted to get this done and test it before the season ended but just didn't get the time.  I'll bookmark this thread and hopefully remember to come back with some test results next season.

 

I've skied with minimal lift, medium lift and lots of lift.  I find that I simply adapt to whatever is underfoot in a matter of moments so it's not really a mechanical advantage nor stability issue for me one way or another except for the issue of wide feet. Personally, I think binding manufacturers should deliver all bindings with  options - like plates to change lift amounts at toe & heel (separately!), plates to change cant angles and a way to permit diagonal-mount adjustments - like toe-out or toe-in mounting. (I'm tired of being Universalized into their own predefined boxes)

 

.ma

 

 

post #39 of 47

I've always had Rossignol Power 14 Ti Lifters on one pair of 99mm-wide PM Gear Bro Models, and loved them so much I skied them into the ground.  I have Dukes on the other pair of Bros, and the only complaint I had was that the Dukes were about an inch forward of the Rossis on the other pair, so I had them remounted and now like them fine.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDCAT View Post

I can add a Tyrolia 9SLR plate, this will add 9mm of lift and also make it possible to reposition the binding without re-drilling the ski.


I thought about doing the same with my 191 Scott P4s (138/108/127) and Tyrolia d10s.  I ended up deciding not to because I thought I had the mount point right and was concerned about putting the extra 9mm lift -- and an additional point of potential failure and slop -- between boot and ski.

 

And I'm now considering doing so with my 190 Moment Rubies (140/112/131).  I haven't had them mounted yet, but I demoed them with Look PX demo bindings, and I figure the demo setup adds at least as much height as a plate.  And I loved them enough to buy them.

 

The reality is that I doubt it'll make much difference in day to day performance.  The skis themselves are a good 12-15mm thick, and the d10 binding has a 21mm stand height, so my boot sole will be about 35mm off the snow anyway.  I'm not sure I'm good enough to feel another 9mm.

 

So for me, it'll come down to how much confidence I have in the mount position, and whether I'm willing to tolerate an additional point of potential failure and slop to hedge that bet.

post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

For those Do-it-Yourself types out there I would recommend Tap Plastics for the materials needed to make your own lifters.  This Page has a bunch of raw materials that might be considered. 

...

Decided to go with the Foamed PVC after putting a binding screw into it 9mm deep and trying to pull it out with a crowbar.  Held firmly - better than most woods.  I also froze both plastics in the freezer and banged on them with a hammer to check for brittleness... no issues there.  I'm told there may be an issue with ultraviolet radiation over time so I'll probably put a coat of paint over them before mounting.

 

Already I've cut the pieces to size and drilled the holes.  I'll be mounting the bindings to the PVC and mounting the PVC to the skis with a slightly wider/longer screw pattern than the binding mount points.  I also chose to 'cant' the plastic plates by slicing 2-degrees off the surface with the table saw.  A little more shaping and rounding of the sharp edges is still needed.  I'm going with a single 10mm thick piece. I think the toe piece is ~13mm with the heel at ~20mm so I'll be ~23mm toe and ~30mm heel unless I decide to increase the toe enough to flatten out the Ramp angle (might just do that).

 

Wanted to get this done and test it before the season ended but just didn't get the time.  I'll bookmark this thread and hopefully remember to come back with some test results next season.

...

 

.ma

 


bump....

so, ma, how'd this all work out?

how'd the material - foamed PVC - hold up?

seems like an easy way to have some fun with 'ramping'.. which I want to fool with...
post #41 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
 

For those Do-it-Yourself types out there I would recommend Tap Plastics for the materials needed to make your own lifters.  This Page has a bunch of raw materials that might be considered. 

 

I've some old Fischer Demo Railflex bindings on Monster 82's that weigh a bunch and have decided to put some recently obtained Look bindings on them instead.  I kinda like the lift under the Demo Railflex as I have wide feet (and therefore wide boots, plus stretching) so I decided to put lifters under the Looks.  The lift under the Demo Railflex has my boot sole a whopping 35mm off the ski's topsheet - but I haven't booted out all season (a first for me).  I don't even see 'boot drag marks' beside my ski tracks any more.

 

At a local Tap Plastics outlet store I bought some 8mm ABS (Black) and some 10mm Foamed PVC (White).  The ABS seems tough enough though it was a bit heavy.  The Foamed PVC was very light but I wasn't sure it would hold screws all that well. 

 

Decided to go with the Foamed PVC after putting a binding screw into it 9mm deep and trying to pull it out with a crowbar.  Held firmly - better than most woods.  I also froze both plastics in the freezer and banged on them with a hammer to check for brittleness... no issues there.  I'm told there may be an issue with ultraviolet radiation over time so I'll probably put a coat of paint over them before mounting.

 

Already I've cut the pieces to size and drilled the holes.  I'll be mounting the bindings to the PVC and mounting the PVC to the skis with a slightly wider/longer screw pattern than the binding mount points.  I also chose to 'cant' the plastic plates by slicing 2-degrees off the surface with the table saw.  A little more shaping and rounding of the sharp edges is still needed.  I'm going with a single 10mm thick piece. I think the toe piece is ~13mm with the heel at ~20mm so I'll be ~23mm toe and ~30mm heel unless I decide to increase the toe enough to flatten out the Ramp angle (might just do that).

 

Wanted to get this done and test it before the season ended but just didn't get the time.  I'll bookmark this thread and hopefully remember to come back with some test results next season.

 

I've skied with minimal lift, medium lift and lots of lift.  I find that I simply adapt to whatever is underfoot in a matter of moments so it's not really a mechanical advantage nor stability issue for me one way or another except for the issue of wide feet. Personally, I think binding manufacturers should deliver all bindings with  options - like plates to change lift amounts at toe & heel (separately!), plates to change cant angles and a way to permit diagonal-mount adjustments - like toe-out or toe-in mounting. (I'm tired of being Universalized into their own predefined boxes)

 

.ma

 

 

Well, how did it go with the plastic?

post #42 of 47

Old thread I know; a couple of riser options:

 

Lots from VIST

Head makes a soft race plate

Head/Tyrolia Powerrail system is one of the best

Marker has the demo Griffon/Duke. Works really well. 

 

Not sure about Salomon, and pretty sure that Look/Rossi don't have an aftermarket option either. 

 

I agree though; for general skiing (not park/pipe), most people are better served with a binding that has lift. I wouldn't want a flattish binding on anything under 100mm, personally. 

post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgcatching View Post
 

Old thread I know; a couple of riser options:

 

Lots from VIST

Head makes a soft race plate

Head/Tyrolia Powerrail system is one of the best

Marker has the demo Griffon/Duke. Works really well. 

 

Not sure about Salomon, and pretty sure that Look/Rossi don't have an aftermarket option either. 

 

I agree though; for general skiing (not park/pipe), most people are better served with a binding that has lift. I wouldn't want a flattish binding on anything under 100mm, personally. 

Which allows the ski to flex more, the Head freeflex or Powerrai?. Can the powerail 12 be used in racing? How tall is the Head race plate?

post #44 of 47

If anyone is in need, I'll have 14 DIN and 17 DIN Free Flex bindings with various brake sizes available in a week or so (17s are avail now).  Pretty nice bindings.

post #45 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
 

The Coombas I demoed had Naxo bindings on them, and I liked the absurd amount of lift.  That was in cut-up, uneven powder.  In fact, I'm a little concerned that if I buy Coombas with "normal" bindings I won't love them as much.

 

On the homemade riser front -- I once bought skis at a swap that had 3/4 inch risers made of some black plastic.  I had a shop remount them (wrong sole length) and the tech was bemused to discover they were homemade -- but he reused them and said, "hey, whatvever works!"  I loved those skis.

Where did you buy them? Might have been mine!

post #46 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino View Post
 

If anyone is in need, I'll have 14 DIN and 17 DIN Free Flex bindings with various brake sizes available in a week or so (17s are avail now).  Pretty nice bindings.

Very nice bindings.  How much are you looking for?

post #47 of 47

TheDad - Check your PMs.

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