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Characteristis of a 0* and 2* tune

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

 

My new skis have a 0* base and 2* side.  It seems like the edge engages sooner and scrapes the snow instead of carving.  Not a lot but I notices the edge hold to be greater, sooner.  I also seem to have a harder time getting the ski up on edge.  What I notice is that the ski likes to be flat on the snow more than I am used to.  Fantastic ride but different from what I am accustomed to.  The edges are sharp as a mo-fo.

 

Would this be an actual characteristic of this type of tune.

post #2 of 25

Not an expert on the subject, but what you describe makes sense...I have a pair of used SL skis that I haven't taken out yet that are 0.5 & 3- my understanding is that the skis will engage quicker with less of a base angle, but think that most racers still have some base angle, even if it is only 0.3 or 0.5 as a 0 base tends to be pretty unforgiving.

post #3 of 25

IIRC, these came out of the box with a 1/3. Either way, it is one of the best tunes you will ever ski. Adjust and enjoy.  

post #4 of 25

The way I think about it that if there is no base bevel there is absolutely no tolerance when you want to ride a flat ski.  The slightest bit of tipping will engage the edge.  I have been taught that between .5 and 1 degree is ideal, that you should tune the ski as close to .5 as possible as it will gradually increase over time.

 

A larger base bevel will make riding a flat ski easier, but will also take more effort (tipping) to engage the edge.  I'd like to be able to get to the edge quickly, but also be able to ride the ski flat when desired.

 

 

 

 

post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 

iirc, ???

 

Are you saying mine came out of the box with 1/3.  It is the best tune that I have ever been on, even though it feels very flat.  The edge grip is phenomenal, but it seems early to engage.

post #6 of 25

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

iirc, ???

 

Are you saying mine came out of the box with 1/3.  It is the best tune that I have ever been on, even though it feels very flat.  The edge grip is phenomenal, but it seems early to engage.

 

Well it depends on what kind of skis they are, you could email the manufacturer (or search epic) to see what the factory tune is.  I emailed Fischer once and they told me that that is what they do.

 

That said, factory tunes aren't always consistent.  I would be surprised by any ski coming from the factory with a 0 base bevel.

 

I think 1/3 is very common, it's what I've been taught to use on all my skis, I think Atomicman also favors that geometry.  

post #7 of 25

 IIRC = If I remember correctly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

iirc, ???

 

post #8 of 25
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

IIRC, these came out of the box with a 1/3. Either way, it is one of the best tunes you will ever ski. Adjust and enjoy.  


Oh?
 

 

I was told by the shop that it was 0* and 2* and it didn't seem to ski like1/3.

 

 

post #9 of 25

What brand and model of skis are they?   

post #10 of 25

Hart Phoenix.  

post #11 of 25

IIRC my Hart Beats came with a 1/3.  When I tuned them I put a 1/2 on them. 

post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 

So the question is:  what are the characteristics of a tune 0*/2* vs 1/3.  And then what is the actual tune of the Hart Phoenix.  Wouldn't a 1/3 enjoy a high angle.

 

Phil mentioned the tune.  Never seen anything like that out of the box.

post #13 of 25

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post

So the question is:  what are the characteristics of a tune 0*/2* vs 1/3.  And then what is the actual tune of the Hart Phoenix.  Wouldn't a 1/3 enjoy a high angle.

 

Phil mentioned the tune.  Never seen anything like that out of the box.


a 0/2 will be a very catchy ski and will not allow (almost ) any skidding. The 1/3 is more compliant without loosing edge control. The edge control is the same, 2 degree. 

post #14 of 25

Not horribly accurate, but take a VERY straight edge (true bar) and place it so it is flat against the metal base edge.   The height of the true bar off of the base material 60mm from the edge is your base bevel. 

post #15 of 25

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypress View Post

Not horribly accurate, but take a VERY straight edge (true bar) and place it so it is flat against the metal base edge.   The height of the true bar off of the base material 60mm from the edge is your base bevel. 


That's a great rule of thumb for small angles.

post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 

Could the low edge angles be a product of the binding.  There is no lifter, the bindings sits right on the ski.  Could this be the reason the edge angles feel so different.

post #17 of 25

I personally preferred that ski with a lifted binding.  

post #18 of 25

I posted a thread on this a while back after I tried skiing with 0 degree base. I don't understand how you are experiencing scraping rather than carving??

 

I found the skis hooked up very quickly (as expected) and carved everything unless I conciously tried to make them skid, even then the turn was 'scarved' rather than properly skidded and if you put any pressure on the tip they hooked up again. When skidding they had a 'dragging a anchor' type feeling which wasn't particularly nice I have to say.

 

I though this would be so demanding and intolerant it would be almost impossible to ski but it was not the case. Skis were SL skis so it's rare I want to skid a turn with them and I love the edge hold and quick hook up.I would NOT want non piste/race skis with this tune.

post #19 of 25

Ski Beveling Recommendations

 

The following is a general guideline for beveling Hart Skis.  These are only a recommendation.  You must take in to consideration the ski, the skier and how the ski will be used when making the decision for your skis.

 

Javelin SL

0.5 Base

3 Sidewall

 

For Javelin GS

1 Base

3 Sidewall

These are not set in stone. Many GS racers use a 0.75 on the base instead of 1. Some racers will go 4 on the sidewall. 

 

For all Others, the General Recommendation

1 Base

2 Sidewall

 

 

post #20 of 25

What Phil said, plus that a 0/2 doesn't make a lot of sense in practice.  A 2 degree side bevel will not grip nearly as well as a 3 degree (or greater) side bevel.  So it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a zero degree base bevel (which will cause your skis to hook up with the slightest amount of tipping) but then not have the side angles to allow a good hold once you are hooked up. 

 

<Edit> As Epic pointed out, I forgot to do the math.  When you set the base bevel to a degree,  you now have a 91 degree angle.  When you bevel the side edge to 3 degrees, the angle becomes 88 degrees, which is identical to 0/2. </Edit>

 

In general, small (< 1 degree) base bevel angles work best at relatively slower speeds.  Because they hook up quickly and more abruptly, there is less margin for error.  If your ski hooks up unexpectedly at speed, you can get hurt.  I run .5 degrees on my slalom skis, but 1 degree for everything else. 

 

In general, large (>= 3 degree) side bevel angles are necessary for good hold on hard snow.  However, some skiers may find larger angles feel too grippy for non-edge-locked turns.  1/1 and 1/2 are probably more common for all mountain skiing, but plenty of folks use 1/3 as well. 

 

Also, metal edges don't glide as well as your bases.  So for speed events, larger base bevels get used all of the time.  I believe Billy Johnson won the downhill at Sarajevo (a glider's course) with 5 degrees of base bevel.  Hermann Maier says the same thing.  He makes a comment in his book about how people were speculating that he had a slow run on Birds Of Prey due to wax issues when it was really a result of picking the wrong edge geometry for the conditions.

 

Lifter plates help with edge hold because they move the forces that you are resisting closer to the center of the ankle.  This reduces the levering action that works against your ability to hold the critical angle with your skis.  They also give you more of a lever to work with when it comes to tipping.  So yes, the same ski will be easier to tip if it is lifted and it will hold better.

 

 


Edited by geoffda - 5/5/2009 at 06:39 pm GMT
post #21 of 25

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

What Phil said, plus that a 0/2 doesn't make a lot of sense in practice.  A 2 degree side bevel will not grip nearly as well as a 3 degree (or greater) side bevel.


A 1/3 is an 88 degree angle just like 0/2 so the grip should be exactly the same on both. 0/2 will be harder to ski though.

post #22 of 25

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 


A 1/3 is an 88 degree angle just like 0/2 so the grip should be exactly the same on both. 0/2 will be harder to ski though.


Duh.  Yep, that's exactly right 0/2 only doesn't make sense if you are math challenged like me .
 

post #23 of 25
Thread Starter 

I guess the question raised by this discussion is about the factory tune.  I can tell you that the tune is exceptional.  The guy at the store told me - 0/2*.  Phil thinks it is more like 1/2*.  At some point it would be good to know.  I am not unhappy about he tune, it's just different and I'd like to understand what's going on.  I would not want to change the factory tune until I am sure about which way to go.

post #24 of 25

Paul,

 

Could it be because you are taking a HP carver/detuned GS ski in the bumps and found it to be catchy? I did find these skis to be more 'positive' on the snow than the Nordica's that you were familiar with. Personally I love the way the Hart's  hold on the snow, a good amount is contributed to the magnificent tune that comes out of the box. If you adjust to the them, I really think you will get a lot more out of them than the other way around. You could confirm with Pete at ForeRunner that they didn't change the factory tune. I would also doubt that Panatti would let a miss tuned ski out of the factory.  

post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 

Phil,

 

I love the way the ski performs.  The quality of the tune is very apparent.  The characteristics of this ski are unlike any I have ever skied.

 

In the bumps the ski was amazing.  On GS turns I struggled with edge angles.  Snow conditions also confused my skills on the only day that I was on them.

 

Maybe the flat, no lift mount is contributing to the difference.  But it did seem as though angulation was more difficult.

 

 

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Characteristis of a 0* and 2* tune