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Bad Rotation (video) - Page 9

post #241 of 251

Aye, there's the rub. How do you explain to a student how to tip their feet/skis?   I more comonly see students following instructions that make them do something they shouldn't, than I see students failing to follow instructions.  For example, the problem most apparent in failure to achieve the intent of carving edge-locked turns is the student tries to turn their feet, trying to point their toes in the direction they wish to turn in.  Is this a result of their misunderstanding an instruction on how to tip their skis?  Or is it a relic of instruction used for the purpose of developing the rotary skill.

 

I see it in terms of what the ski does on the snow.  Many instructors, I gather, see it in terms of what movements are required of the body to achieve what the ski does on the snow.  I see skis tipping.  Many instructors see a particular body move that makes the skis tip, weight the side that you want to dig in, lift the other side that you want off the snow, lean inside the turn, counter-facilitated angulation, moving the knees (ouch), etc.

 

How would you tell a student to tip their skis on edge without torquing the tips around Oisin?

post #242 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

.

 

How would you tell a student to tip their skis on edge without torquing the tips around Oisin?



Don't expect them to learn basic movements and skills and blend them together instantly upon your command. Skill development is a progressive experience that begins with the very first day on skis. Tipping the skis is part of a fundamental movement pattern that is taught from the very first lesson.

 

How do you tip the skis? Be in good balance, fore and aft, weight equally distributed. Extend one leg and allow the other to relax a bit and flex and your body will move to the side of the flexed leg. Your legs (both if the skis are parallel and beneath your body) will form an angle to the snow and the skis will be tipped. Does that alone produce a turn? No. Tipping the skis alone will achieve little except perhaps to cause you to fall down. Edging or tipping the skis needs to be accompanied by a blend of skill applications that must be developed and practiced in the context of correct movements so that when your student has reached the point where he or she is ready to be encouraged to move more dramatically and with greater edge angles he will be able to put them all together in a way that will result in the kind of carved turn you are looking for.

 

So of course I would not simply tell a student how to tip his skis.

 

Just as an aside. I have had students who could do what you are trying to teach in almost their very first lesson, because they had developed these skills to a large degree in other sports. The one student who comes to mind was an accomplished skater (at the Olympic level I believe). Basically he needed to know how and when to use these skills and to learn the blend of skills used in skiing and to practice putting them together in this way (which is remarkably similat to the way they go together in skating).I passed him on to another instructor who is a friend of mine for his second lesson and I'm told he was skiing at a surprisingly high level by the end of the lesson.

post #243 of 251

Yes but it is not the ski we are teaching but the student.
 

quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

.........

I see it in terms of what the ski does on the snow.  ....

 

post #244 of 251

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Is this a result of their misunderstanding an instruction on how to tip their skis? 


Yes.

 

Maybe not so much a misunderstanding of how to tip their skis, but a misinterpretation of how to make a turn.  I can relate to what you have observed & you are correct.  I don't believe this is a result of bad instruction, but more like bad practice.  It is difficult for people to isolate movements (tipping/twisting) & erase ingrained muscle memories.  This could all go back to the "Blending Skills" thread.  I agree that making edge locked arcs are a tool that can be learned by low level skiers, but it would be a great dis-service if this was all that they were taught.

 

I have a Snowboard buddy who is learning to ski.  This guy would fool anyone on a green slope.  He arcs the turn like a veteran racer, maybe a little banking but no excessive rotation or backseat stuff.  Get him on anything with any pitch, & he is admittedly scared shitless.  It is taking a lot of time & patience to get him comfortable letting his mass move downhill & releasing/engaging his skis.  Lucky for us, he has enough patience & trust to learn how to do it right & blend in some skills he is less familiar with.  Left on his own, he would just grossly twist his body & skis wildly back & forth down anything steep & have no clue how to utilize his good carving and edging skills.

JF

post #245 of 251
Thread Starter 

Good discussion here boyz.

 

Oisin is not entirely wrong. He is actually not wrong at all. But what I would have to do is make annother short video with focus on the KNEES. Just like the previous short skiing tip on HIPS I would try to explain how to use leg rotation to tip your skis on edge. But this ski tip comes after the one on HIPS because I find angulation and outside ski pressure to be more important than leg rotation. Note that leg rotation here is not used to point the toes into the turn and twist or pivot the skis. No. Its used to tip the skis onto their edges.

 

I have made a couple of diagrams to show what Im talking about. In this first diagram Im trying to show why I dont like to focus on the knees for tipping the skis and why it does not work so well for students. They tip their skis onto their edges yes but they do not turn. The reason is that their CoM does not get offset to the BoS when turn forces kick in due to skis starting to turn. In the middle pickture I made a simple drawing of how the femures are rotated in the hip sockets and the knees pointed into the turn but CoM stays put. In the right hand drawing the skier has due to a combination of angulation and outside ski pressure and yes leg rotation managed to offset his body the turn to compensate for the turn forces.

 

Angulation001.jpg

Tipping the skis is a combination of flexing the inside leg and angulation. First flex your inside leg. This will shift your N force more towards the outside leg and your balance will be dissrupted and you will be inclining/falling/body mooving in the direction of the turn. Angulate at the same time or a fraction of a second later to try to compensate for the balance dissruption and establishe a new balancing point more towards the outside ski. Then flex your inside leg more and as turn forces start to build up angulate more and start turning your feet. Pointing your knees into the turn. The movements should be gradual dynamic and blended. Here is a attempt to draw a diagram of the progression step by step.

 

Angulation002.jpg

post #246 of 251
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post


Don't expect them to learn basic movements and skills and blend them together instantly upon your command. Skill development is a progressive experience that begins with the very first day on skis. Tipping the skis is part of a fundamental movement pattern that is taught from the very first lesson. This is true offcourse but I do not teach a total beginner to tip their skis to carve. There is a small but significant difference. I teach my students to wedge. When you are wedging your skis are tipped on edge but they are skidding not carving. Carving is something you dont want. Like and edge lock. You want them skidding. You want them to have their skis at a skidding angle. Turning will not upset their balance hardly at all.

 

How do you tip the skis? Be in good balance, fore and aft, weight equally distributed. Extend one leg and allow the other to relax a bit and flex and your body will move to the side of the flexed leg. Your legs (both if the skis are parallel and beneath your body) will form an angle to the snow and the skis will be tipped. So far this sounds good and correct. Does that alone produce a turn? No. Does that produce a turn is not the same as "does that cause the skis to start turning". Tipping the skis alone will achieve little except perhaps to cause you to fall down. Not exactly. As soon as the skis start to tip they will start to turn. If you are falling to the inside of the turn faster than the turn forces build up due to skis tipped on their edges then yes you will eventually fall. Here angulation steps in. By angulating you are compensating for the shifted balance your flexing of the inside leg caused. Note that the wider your stance the quicker you will fall to the inside of the turn when flexing the inside leg. Edging or tipping the skis needs to be accompanied by a blend of skill applications that must be developed and practiced in the context of correct movements so that when your student has reached the point where he or she is ready to be encouraged to move more dramatically and with greater edge angles he will be able to put them all together in a way that will result in the kind of carved turn you are looking for. Yes, well said. Let me add that in the video Im not giving total beginners a lesson. Im giving a small tip to intermediates or higher level as of how to help them arc clean arcs and avoid pitfalls. Its a blend of skills but the most fundamental of these skills are using your hips the right way. Move them inside the turn. Compensate with body movements for turnforces building up. Your skis react upon your body movements and then your body reacts on the action your skis take. Thats why you should try to look ahead. Like walking is constant falling forwards turning is constant falling in eather direction.

 

So of course I would not simply tell a student how to tip his skis. I do. I like a very straight and simple approach. KISS.

 

Just as an aside. I have had students who could do what you are trying to teach in almost their very first lesson, because they had developed these skills to a large degree in other sports. The one student who comes to mind was an accomplished skater (at the Olympic level I believe). Basically he needed to know how and when to use these skills and to learn the blend of skills used in skiing and to practice putting them together in this way (which is remarkably similat to the way they go together in skating).I passed him on to another instructor who is a friend of mine for his second lesson and I'm told he was skiing at a surprisingly high level by the end of the lesson. Good example. Students are offcourse all individuals. We have natural snow in winter all over the country and people learn to ski cross country and skate as children in kindergarten or early on in school. We have embacy staff come to take lessons and with them everything is different.

post #247 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

This is true offcourse but I do not teach a total beginner to tip their skis to carve. There is a small but significant difference. I teach my students to wedge. When you are wedging your skis are tipped on edge but they are skidding not carving

 


This is what I have done as well. My point is that skill development, even edging, begins there and that if you coach your students to develop their skills (balancing, rotation, edging and pressure) in the context of correct movements the progression to carving is a smooth development when they are ready. The point I also saw as significant is that, if they have been brought along in this way, it may indeed seem to be merely a matter of "tipping the skis" but that a lot of underlying development of blended skills is what makes this possible. In reality there is a good deal more going on in this carving demo than you have appeared willing to acknowledge. That is the fundamental source of our disagreement.

 

I would also concur heartily that all these discussions of how to teach are vast simplifications. No two students, no classes, conditions etc are ever alike. An instructor is ever attentive to his students and adjusts his teaching continuosly to suit the occasion, bearing in mind what he knows about learning, skiing mechanics and skier development.
 

post #248 of 251
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin View Post


This is what I have done as well. My point is that skill development, even edging, begins there and that if you coach your students to develop their skills (balancing, rotation, edging and pressure) in the context of correct movements the progression to carving is a smooth development when they are ready. The point I also saw as significant is that, if they have been brought along in this way, it may indeed seem to be merely a matter of "tipping the skis" but that a lot of underlying development of blended skills is what makes this possible. In reality there is a good deal more going on in this carving demo than you have appeared willing to acknowledge. That is the fundamental source of our disagreement.

 

I would also concur heartily that all these discussions of how to teach are vast simplifications. No two students, no classes, conditions etc are ever alike. An instructor is ever attentive to his students and adjusts his teaching continuosly to suit the occasion, bearing in mind what he knows about learning, skiing mechanics and skier development.
 


 

Could you very shortly explain the four skills for me. Pick out the most essential about them.


Balance

Rotation

Edging

Pressure

post #249 of 251



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post




 

Could you very shortly explain the four skills for me. Pick out the most essential about them.


Balance

Rotation

Edging

Pressure


I'll pass on this one. Perhaps someone else would like to pick this up and provide definitions or perhaps has an Alpine Technical Manual handy.

 

Balance is aguably the most significant skill.

 

This is a subject worthy of a topic in itself.
 

post #250 of 251

Hi all,

I haven't been commenting here much lately (several years); but I was checking here tonight and saw this topic.  I looked at the original post and then at the first 5 or 10 comments and then at the last few comments.  It is amazing how we over complicate this skiing thing.  I guess that is what happens when a group analyzes and analyzes and analyzes.

 

Basically, my comment (OK, who cares?) for the video is this.  It is a very good demonstration of what happens when there is no edge angle and a reliance on twisting on flat skis***.  Perhaps the only quibble would be that maybe TDK could use a little less head movement in the demo (head lean... I guess) - but like I said, that is quibbling.  Anyway, to an advanced skier it is obvious that no power can be developed with the upper body rotation stuff.

 

I guess one might use that to demonstrate to a student - what they are doing, as opposed to what should be done.  It is a good juxtaposition - and a good thing to demo to a student all at once and over and over, just as TDK did.

 

A teacher should be able to ski bad technique as well as good technique so that the bad technique can be demonstrated simultaneously with the good technique - very helpful to the student.

 

***There can be twisting with edge angle and a more effective turn done, but as the speed ramps up and the radius tightens and the surface hardens, the effectiveness ramps down.

post #251 of 251
Thread Starter 

sir turnalot, thanks for your comments. Great to hear that you liked the consept and the video. Not all have connected with the video like you have.

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