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Anticipation

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

Anybody trying to hold on to anticipation through out the high C when carivng arc to arc?

post #2 of 29

if I just imagine the angle between the body and the skis I would just wonder if anticipation here is same thing as counter?

 

edit: sorry i mistaken the high C with low C. high C is same as rotation?


Edited by carver_hk - 3/30/2009 at 02:03 am
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

 

if I just imagine the angle between the body and the skis I would just wonder if anticipation here is same thing as counter?

 

edit: sorry i mistaken the high C with low C. high C is same as rotation?


Edited by carver_hk - 3/30/2009 at 02:03 am


 

Exactly, except the rotation would be in the opposite direction. CounterRotation maybe . You would start out in a position where you would be rotated but the actual movement would be "countering", the opposite of "rotation". Does this make any sence?

post #4 of 29

So when counter is the opposite of rotation. Now counter promotes gripping while rotation is logically the other way round. The big question would then be why we want to do that if our intention is carving?

post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

 

So when counter is the opposite of rotation. Now counter promotes gripping while rotation is logically the other way round. The big question would then be why we want to do that if our intention is carving?

This is for you to figure out
 

post #6 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

Anybody trying to hold on to anticipation through out the high C when carivng arc to arc?

Anticipation in skiing is by definition a windup action of the body where the upper body twists towards the upcoming turn stretching the muscles of the waist and hips which creates tension in the muscles. This tension through stretching then allows the muscles to contract creating a rotary force which turns the skis. This much of a windup is usually reserved for short radius turns and would not be appropriate for the longer radius of the turn when carving arc to arc. 

post #7 of 29
Quote:

This much of a windup is usually reserved for short radius turns and would not be appropriate for the longer radius of the turn when carving arc to arc.

I suspect it's even inappropriate for the short carving turn? Because the rotational element will hurt the turn initiation?

 

post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcarlson View Post

 

 

Anticipation in skiing is by definition a windup action of the body where the upper body twists towards the upcoming turn stretching the muscles of the waist and hips which creates tension in the muscles. This tension through stretching then allows the muscles to contract creating a rotary force which turns the skis. This much of a windup is usually reserved for short radius turns and would not be appropriate for the longer radius of the turn when carving arc to arc. 

Yes, thats what it is. But dont you find any use for the wind up and the torque created when carving?
 

post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

 

I suspect it's even inappropriate for the short carving turn? Because the rotational element will hurt the turn initiation?

 

So you would rather choose to rotate your hips out through the low C part of the turn than to start a turn with anticipation?
 

post #10 of 29

Like BigE said I m pretty lazy in skiing. So for the less then icy condition I would just start turns squaring the skis and develop some counter on the way through the lowC. You didn't share your view yet?

post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

 

Like BigE said I m pretty lazy in skiing. So for the less then icy condition I would just start turns squaring the skis and develop some counter on the way through the lowC. You didn't share your view yet?

So you dont mind if your ski tails are washing out at the end of the turn

post #12 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 


 

Yes, thats what it is. But dont you find any use for the wind up and the torque created when carving?
 

Not when I'm carving the longer radius turns that arcing dictates. When the skis are arcing the body is more directly aligned to the direction of the turn which is not down the fall line but back and forth across the fall line. Therefore there is a minimal amount of a countered position so a wind up and release would be counter productive. 

post #13 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 So you dont mind if your ski tails are washing out at the end of the turn

 

I ll be happy to see where is the ski tails wash out in my latest lazy carving MA.

post #14 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcarlson View Post

 

 

Not when I'm carving the longer radius turns that arcing dictates. When the skis are arcing the body is more directly aligned to the direction of the turn which is not down the fall line but back and forth across the fall line. Therefore there is a minimal amount of a countered position so a wind up and release would be counter productive. 

Good input here, thanks. So you square up and you dont use much upper body counter through out the turn. Is there a reason for you to be square to your skis or is that just something that happens automatically?
 

post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

 

 

 

I ll be happy to see where is the ski tails wash out in my latest lazy carving MA.


 

Which one?

post #16 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

Which one?

 

This one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odwphrc-caM

post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 

HK, correct me if Im wrong but those turns are not carved according to my definition. You are clearly initiating your turns with rotation followed by steering. I could be wrong offcourse. If you look at your very first turn to the right check out how your upper body rotates out into the turn followed by your hips rotating outwards over your skis. This causes your skis to brake loos and you enter a steering phase. After you reach apex you counter rotate and angulate in order to increase your edge angles and finnish the tun in a controlled manner. However, you are anticipated at the beginning of the turn in the high C. So you are using anticipation. Your skis are still pointing across the hill even though you have transitioned into the new turn while your upper body is facing down hill. But you can hold on to anticipation and still have your hips move into the new turn.

post #18 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

You are clearly initiating your turns with rotation followed by steering.

 

I suspect you are right. As I found these turns are very slow. If I recall correctly I intentionally tried to put in an element of brushing the snows. But then is it brushed carve or steering?

post #19 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

I suspect you are right. As I found these turns are very slow. If I recall correctly I intentionally tried to put in an element of brushing the snows. But then is it brushed carve or steering?


 

You are the one skiing, your the one that should know. Its a free world, you can call it what you want. Still according to my definition it would be a steered turn. Your initiation is clearly not "carving". Its rotational. You get going with a wind up. And yes, I think that the brushed carve and passive steering is the same thing although your initiation is not a clean one.
 

post #20 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

You are the one skiing, your the one that should know. Its a free world, you can call it what you want. 

I believe there is a standard way of classifying turns with a certain type name. It is more often then not, at a learning stage the student is not able to tell what exactly happen. Going back to the OP. If this is not even a brushed carve its no point to ask if there is any tail wash at all as my conception is that brushed carve have the lower C tails follows tip. 

post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 

There is no standard way of classifying turns Im sorry. For me a carved turn is allways with the intention that skis are running along their edges arc to arc and that the initiation is clean and pivot and tail wash free. If skis brakes loos of the carve in the middle of the turn I can call it eather skidded, brushed or steered. Depends on who Im talking to. Your turns do not therefore qualify as carved turns. Not necessarily a bad thing since your intent is not carved turns. Maybe you thaught they would be carved but your intent was wrongly defined.

 

However, we are talking "anticipation" here and if anybody specificly and intentionally applies it to their arc to arc skiing. To show you guys what I mean take a look at this WC skier:

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/latest-images/slides/poutiainen-aspen-2006-gs-1A.html

 

Its no accident. She does the same in two consecutive turns. She is the GS cup winner this year so she must be doing something right.

post #22 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

Anybody trying to hold on to anticipation through out the high C when carivng arc to arc?

Well, when I'm initiating a long-radius purely carved turn, one with as much time and distance spent above the fall line as below it, then right at initiation I turn my torso and hips towards the outside of the upcoming turn, and yes, I hold that orientation as I increase the tipping angle of the skis slowly through the turn.  Once those skis come around through the fall line and after, I'm both countered and angulated, as appropriate for that situation.  

Is this what you're driving at?

post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

 

Well, when I'm initiating a long-radius purely carved turn, one with as much time and distance spent above the fall line as below it, then right at initiation I turn my torso and hips towards the outside of the upcoming turn, and yes, I hold that orientation as I increase the tipping angle of the skis slowly through the turn.  Once those skis come around through the fall line and after, I'm both countered and angulated, as appropriate for that situation.  

Is this what you're driving at?

Thanks for your input. Im talking about the exact same thing you are with the difference that insted of turning the torso and hips towards the outside of the upcoming turn at initiation you keep them facing down hill. This is anticipation. Then you hold on to it and as your skis come arround towards apex where serious pressure starts to build up you ski into counter. This is what the WC skier does in the photo sequence.

post #24 of 29

Well, I'm talking about very very wide turns, with the transition part going straight across the hill across the fall line, or even uphill just for fun.   This stretches out the top half of the turn big time, and exaggerates the business of getting into counter right from the start.   One needs to turn the torso and hips to the outside right at transition just to get the edges tipped while traveling across the fall line.  The "outside" in this case puts you facing either uphill, or at least out at the side of the slope, right up at the start.  But as the turn progresses, your body ends up eventually facing downhill.  You don't change it, the turn comes around.  

And yes, I also get into a countered position at the start of shorter radius turns, holding the torso facing downhill for the entire turn.  For very short turns, short swing turns, the torso never stops facing downhill.

 

Are you differentiating between "anticipation" (a strongly twisted torso that unwinds itself to help you generate a new steering angle for the skis) and a slightly "countered" torso which does subtle things for the turn but does not contribute significantly to any actively applied rotary movement of the skis?

 

post #25 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

And yes, I also get into a countered position at the start of shorter radius turns, holding the torso facing downhill for the entire turn.  

If you are facing downhill the entire turn you are not countered after transition in the top C. You are anticipated at the top and countered at the bottom. Square at apex. (simplified)
 

post #26 of 29

yep.  that's right.  

post #27 of 29

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 
 

If you are facing downhill the entire turn you are not countered after transition in the top C. You are anticipated at the top and countered at the bottom. Square at apex. (simplified)
 

I heard someone said if you are not countered at apex you won't get that much angulation?

post #28 of 29
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post

 

 

I heard someone said if you are not countered at apex you won't get that much angulation?


 

Angulation is bending sideways at the hip. If you are completely square to your skis and you angulate you will move your hip perpendiculary to your skis. When you counter you will move your hips more forwards at an angle less than 90 deg to your skis. This will lessen angulation. If you counter 90 deg your hips will be at such angle that angulation would move your hips almost forwards insted of sideways. Many times counter is taken for angulation. Its not the same thing.

post #29 of 29

thx for explanation.

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