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What in the world is a "pivot slip"? - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Disski--I've been meaning to mention a warning about the dark side of pivot slips. Because you are slipping directly sideways, by definition, you are at the mercy of any little chunk of snow that wants to catch your downhill edge and trip you.

Pivot Slips are notorious for causing painful downhill falls from catching an edge. They are best practiced on perfect groomed corduroy, on a steep pitch (typically blue). In our exams, if the right conditions aren't available, we don't do pivot slips.

On the other hand, if you're up to it, practicing pivot slips in less-than-optimal conditions can be great for your skills. Try them on a sidehill, where the fall line does not go straight down the hill. They're easiest (and safest) on a steep groomed run--so try them on less steep green runs. You have to be able to at least maintain your speed during the sideslip, which is increasingly difficult to do on flatter runs. But watch out--the flatter the run, the flatter your skis must be to slip, and the more risk you take of catching the downhill edge.

At our Apprentice Examiner tryouts a few weeks ago, we had candidates do pivot slips down a crud-covered mogul run. The range of skills and versatility they had to show to maintain their direction down the fall line, pivot their skis with their legs, and avoid catching edges was impressive!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ March 12, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #32 of 55
Bob B, I love your descriptions of the misconceptions surrounding pivot slips, hockey slide et al! I love them, as I have said before "they a window into your skiing soul" concerning movements. They are in the exam to expose the "hitch in the gitalong" in even the most devious expert!
Unfortunately, the exam forces candidates to train to the characteristics of the task rather than the principles of movement. The effort to maintain corridor causes fore and aft manipulation etc, etc. Rather the principles be the focus wherein intent (stay in the corridor) determines technique, what we are really looking for is braquage not a parlour trick.
Sounds like I just got off the hill with Milt don't it? You are right!
post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:
Disski--I've been meaning to mention a warning about the dark side of pivot slips. Because you are slipping directly sideways, by definition, you are at the mercy of any little chunk of snow that wants to catch your downhill edge and trip you.

Pivot Slips are notorious for causing painful downhill falls from catching an edge. They are best practiced on perfect groomed corduroy, on a steep pitch (typically blue). In our exams, if the right conditions aren't available, we don't do pivot slips.

On the other hand, if you're up to it, practicing pivot slips in less-than-optimal conditions can be great for your skills. Try them on a sidehill, where the fall line does not go straight down the hill. They're easiest (and safest) on a steep groomed run--so try them on less steep green runs. You have to be able to at least maintain your speed during the sideslip, which is increasingly difficult to do on flatter runs. But watch out--the flatter the run, the flatter your skis must be to slip, and the more risk you take of catching the downhill edge.

: Now you are REALLY scaring me....

I spent a bit of time last season doing the 'hockey slides' one....(YES they are TRYING to convince me learn to use flat skis sometimes)

Ask OZ or Ant about the chances of finding perfect groomed corduroy in Oz... (Lets just say most mornings I'm happy if I don't find a grooming miss-match of more than 3" on my warmup)

We were using green/blue terrain mostly....

The worst bit for me was the FLAT ski run in the middle... arrrggghh

No falls though... :

Can someone please explain how this 'catching an edge' feels & how it happens... I'm still trying to get a handle on it...
I don't like falling - so I like to work out what NOT to do if I want to stay upright...

I get the 'flat ski' run bit from fastmans description - I know how 'squirmy' a 156 Stockli SLR can feel - so I guess the catching there is just that but much worse....

I thought the pivot slip bit might have given me an idea - as I still remember the feel of doing them very strongly(new thing still not automatic)
post #34 of 55
To do these you have to release your edges enough to pivot your ski tips downhill, which means you body also has to move in that direction.

What is "enough" varies with terrain and snow conditions.

If you are on flat terrain (where you need to release to a really flat ski) and in soft enough snow (where the ski is down in it a bit) it is possible to snag/catch the downhill edge/sidewall of the downhill ski if the release move goes a fraction too far (past flat) or you slip sidways against a firm chunk or an undulation in terrain just as you release. Result is that the feet stop just enough, and body keeps going into a downhill digger as VSP alluded to. Ouch! [img]redface.gif[/img]
post #35 of 55
My one fall while teaching at Keystone sounds a bit like VSP's thing, complete with buggered shoulder (it was stuffed for weeks!). I wasn't even sideslipping properly. I twisted uphill to address a comment to the boy (had him all week whoo hoo!) I had, and caught the downhill edge and BLAM. Worst thing was, I didn't know it was happening until I hit the hill downhill. So my head went BLAM too.

the little rat affected great concern, but later when we were sprung chucking snowballs at teh ski school sign by the River Run SS Manager, he dobbed me in for falling!!!! Manager got on his radio...aargh.
post #36 of 55
The French (and Canadians) call this exercise braquage (sp?). I'm not sure if you can order it with Freedom Fries. I use it a lot for various skills. I generally warn students that it is a difficult and coorindated manouvre and they may not fully mimic what I show them. However, they usually incorporate enough of the skill being worked on into their skiing that achieves all I wanted from the execise any ways.
post #37 of 55
I was actually taught pivot slips and linked hockey stops in two separate lessons by different teachers at different resorts. Each instructor noticed that I ski with high edge angles and unweight excessively to release my edges. The point of the pivot slips for me was to learn to ride a flatter ski and to be able to release my edges more subtly without such a powerful up motion. I haven't had too much opportunity to practice them, but the little amount we did during each lesson definitly helped. It's quite a neat little exercise which really showed me a huge weaknesses in my technique.
post #38 of 55
They are VERY hard to do!

Tried with little sucess last time i skied. My corridor looks like a slalom course, and i fell over quite often too!
post #39 of 55
Are pivot slips hard to do? Well they are if your ALIGNMENT is off! Otherwise, whats the big deal? Flatten your skis and turn your feet. It helps to be centered fore and aft. How do you flatten the skis to the slope? Move your CM down the hill. Hint. EXTEND!
post #40 of 55
has anyone qiven any thought as to how an excercise, first designed for straight skis, contradicts the modern doctrine of shaped skis " just tip and they turn themselves, find the edge early in the turn" .... mmmmm
post #41 of 55
Quote:
Releasing the platform and steering the ski tips INTO the turn is the essence of contemporary skiing.

--Bob Barnes
post #42 of 55
Quote:
posted by disski:

Can someone please explain how this 'catching an edge' feels & how it happens... I'm still trying to get a handle on it...
I don't like falling - so I like to work out what NOT to do if I want to stay upright...
Do you mean to say you have never caught an edge? I find that amazing!

When I do it, and I do it a lot (but don't Always fall), it always feels like it's in slow motion. It's Wrong, wrong, wrong, out of control, the feeling of one foot grounded and one on another planet, and I suck in a breath at the speed of light while assessing in a millisecond what went wrong and how to correct it.

Sometimes, I do! That always amazes me, and breathing returns.

When I don't correct, I do a ballet fall. It's a beautiful thing. Some have said I look graceful in that moment (much better than the "wounded badger" look I exude when I am skiing normally).
post #43 of 55
"Wounded badger" . . . is this a new look for Bonni? Whatever happend to the petulant-fourteen-year-old look?
post #44 of 55
Find a badger.
Poke it with a pointed stick really hard.
That's me. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Petulant, perhaps. But I'm close to your age, oboe, and 14 year old does NOT cut it. Let's be real here, or are your scrip meds working overtime?
post #45 of 55
Quote:
Originally posted by Bonni:
Do you mean to say you have never caught an edge? I find that amazing!

Not that I know of Bonni...

For me falls consist of 'skiing...lying in/on snow'
only more recently is there MORE to it than that...

When I'm lying in the snow or collecting myself I have been told I am a 'dickhead'(with a grin - I did what I was told not to do at start of run)...

Also many times 'ah too much weight on inside ski huh?' or 'leaning UPHILL is not so great is it?' etc etc etc

even simply 'you had a brain fart get up & ski properly'

Never 'you caught an edge'...

Hence I can associate certain phenomenon with 'too much weight on inside ski' but not with 'catch an edge'

the brain fart bit means I need to stop fretting & think about skiing - belongs to the instructor who says to concentrate on starting the run with 'One GOOD turn' he feels hat after the first decent turn the rest will follow... starting poorly continues the situation...
post #46 of 55
Man, if I had people giving me THAT kind of feedback, I'd get new instructors! It borders on abuse!

Everyone "catches an edge". Don't sweat it.
post #47 of 55
Bonni, that was intended as a good natured reminder that you called your "style" at Deer Valley "the petulant fourteen year old" . . . but I never knew you were anywhere NEAR my advanced age.
post #48 of 55
Yes, my dear fossilage.
post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Releasing the platform and steering the ski tips INTO the turn is the essence of contemporary skiing.

--Bob Barnes
</font>[/quote]as it is the essence of skiing before it became to known as "contemporary"

Thank you

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #50 of 55
I have an idea-----Man from Oz, you have the opportunity to do a great service here.
Take time to visit disski. Ski with her. Teach her how to catch an edge. Call it that when she does. That would be sooo :

Report expected from disski on the sheer joy of edge catching. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #51 of 55
Pivot slips exist to teach people how to flatten their skis and turn their feet. It's very simple. That's what makes it so difficult. We want to add an extra flattener (extension) and some extra turning forces (stemming, hip/shoulder rotation) unnecessarily.

Do carvers need to flatten their skis? I watched Boone Lennon carving on his monoboard the other day. The edge change appeared to be completely horizontal. Between the one line that ended and the one that began the snow was ironed flat. The need to flatten skis was then, is now, and ever shall be.

I maintain that pivot slips (any straight sideslip) are done with weight centered on the skis, and pivoted from the center of each foot. The center of the ski is a necessary reference in skiing. Was then, is now, etc.

Pivot slips are a great entre to retraction: I introduce a pedaling action to retract the inside leg and extend the outside right over the top of it to turn. To emphasize this, I ask them to squeeze their turns into a narrow corridor and short vertical distance, until they're billy goating down the hill from one leap over the top to the next. (Actually, it's sort of like the legs leapfrog down the hill. Hmmm. I'll have to use that.)

The idea of using pivot slips to teach how to master bumps and steeps is probably a contemporary notion. Until we started sporting shorter skis, hockey slides and hop turns were probably the way to go.
post #52 of 55
Quote:
Originally posted by nolo:


The idea of using pivot slips to teach how to master bumps and steeps is probably a contemporary notion. Until we started sporting shorter skis, hockey slides and hop turns were probably the way to go.
Nolo, this is exactly the type of skiing I was working on in the lessons in which I was taught pivot slips. Nice to know my lessons this year were cutting edge. The mantra that I was told to repeat was, "Guide and ride."
post #53 of 55
Bonni [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #54 of 55
Disski [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #55 of 55
I was given a wonderful tip by a Bear (Hapski) at the start of the season. He suggested doing pivot slips as slowly as possible as a means to eliminate any hip or shoulder rotation.

I try to feel that I am grinding rocks under my boots.

It works for me or so I'm told!
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