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Waxing for Storage - A solution to a non-problem - Page 3

post #61 of 84

There might also be a slight possibility that the white residue is actually crystalline residual wax, the phenomenon is known as blooming; it certainly has the same appearance.  As to why is appears more on skis that have less wax, might have to do with the increased surface area on a base that has less wax than one with more wax; since the valleys, pores etc, would be filled in such a case.  The "rougher" surface of a properly waxed and brushed ski, will allow more surface area exposure to environmental factors than one that was allowed to cool with puddled wax; which is essentially smooth.   Since there will always be traces of wax on the bases no matter how much you clean or ski, this may always be the case if applicable.

post #62 of 84

I'll be up front and say I didn't read through all of this, as some of it started collapsing into non-sense, but here's a few observations from shop experience. I have no scientific background, nor did I ever play a scientist on TV.

 

Storage waxing is done to prevent the bases from drying out over a period of lack of use. really, if it's scraped off, that should be fine as well, so long as the equipment has been freshly waxed prior to being put away. If stored in a furnace room, or near a water heater, then skis will dry out more quickly. Keep that in mind when you put your pairs away for the summer.

 

Storage wax can also help protect the edges against corrosion. It can also help foster corrosion. Confused? The idea is that if you make sure wax coats the edges, moisture can't build up on the edges, causing rust. HOWEVER! If you rush this at the end of the season and do teh storage wax when skis are cold, or without properly drying them off, you'll trap moisture and have fuzzy red edges in the fall! I've never used oil, and wouldn't, as I am not sure what it would do to the base if any got on the base material. Probably prevent teh base from holding wax in that spot.

 

On to the mystery white stuff. It's fuzzy, not crystaline, and is the result of a dried out base. Wax serves two key purposes. It helps you go fast, and it also serves as a moisturizer for your base. When teh base dries out, it get fibrous, and starts to go white (well, really, just splits like dried out hair) and starts to look white. Apart from poor storage,

 

You'll also see this when skis go too long between waxing during the season, or when someone spends a lot of time with equipment heavily weighted on one edge - think of a snowboarder who rides their heel edge sideways all the way down a run. Flip the board over and you'll see the base along that edge is fuzzy and white. The friction there causes heat, the heat dries the base, the base gets fuzzy. The longer equipment goes without wax, the more this effect snowballs because....

 

WAX reduces friction and allows you to go faster.

 

Skis and boards can be waxed more heavily with multiple layers and using different wax along high wear areas during the season. Though it's typically a non issue, it can help and is something I typically do on snowboards for beginners (see above).

 

Hope this helps.

post #63 of 84

Sigh, yet again you guys have the proper ski storage techniques all wrong.

 

Quote:

I place the skis in hermetically sealed box, located in a cool, dark place, and line the base with JC Penny white sale pillows of different thicknesses to match the ski camber. Connected to a PV cell and battery will be an iPod and small speakers to continually play soothing music. Once a month, I'll open the lid, rotate the skis, massage them with a soft nylon brush, then tickle them with a soft horsehair one, while talking about how special our next excursion together will be. Before sealing it up again, I'll replace the flower pedals with fresh ones of the season.

And:

The most important thing about storing your boards is to tell them you love them from time to time, stroking them and remind them that the next winter is coming. It all comes back when they first touch snow again.
Then, when winter is apporaching, in August or so (you have to start early), put the board into your living room, or even better, into your bedroom (If you stored them somewhere else in the first place!) They like that and will appreciate it in an appropriate way once on the snow.

Other options:

I built a hover bed for my skis. Several electric fans provide a cushion of air for the skis to float on, providing as perfect a pressure distribution as possible.

I'm a bit worried because the weight of the bindings might alter the flex, so I'm thinking about removing the bindings when not skiing.

Another option is to have the skis put into orbit around Earth during the off season. While a tad bit more expensive, the payoffs might be worth it. Unless, of course, they collide with a asteroid.

post #64 of 84


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanCampbell View Post

 

 

 

On to the mystery white stuff. It's fuzzy, not crystaline, and is the result of a dried out base. Wax serves two key purposes. It helps you go fast, and it also serves as a moisturizer for your base.

Just so you know, wax bloom/crystallization, appears as fuzzy dust to the naked eye.  Ever see a candle with some chalky residue on the outside of it?  Thats bloom and its crystalline. 

 


 

post #65 of 84

cool, thanks.

 

The FUZZY white stuff isn't wax. You'll see it also after Wax remover has been used. With no wax remaining, the friction breaks down the base material and it gets all strand like.

 

The crystalization of wax can also occur but is a different phenomenon. You'll see that on skis or a board that have been waxed, and stored for a while for sure.

post #66 of 84


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

 
The most important thing about storing your boards is to tell them you love them from time to time, stroking them and remind them that the next winter is coming. It all comes back when they first touch snow again.
Then, when winter is apporaching, in August or so (you have to start early), put the board into your living room, or even better, into your bedroom (If you stored them somewhere else in the first place!) They like that and will appreciate it in an appropriate way once on the snow.
 


 

Every now and then, with all the skis watching, sell a pair, or better yet, saw them in half so they fit in the trash.  It keeps the other skis in line.

post #67 of 84

, newfydog and alpinord are headed for therapy as we speak!

 

Richie, here is a thought, no research, but in the day, I made candles.  I remember using stearic acid to make the wax harder and slower burning. I'm wondering if the "bloom" you show in the candle photo is stearic acid. I know, doesn't matter, but the point is that wax, just like glass, is an amorphous material, and as such more liquid than solid.  Makes sense that fillers or additives will "bloom" or bleed out over time. Question is whether the whitish appearance on ski bottoms is wax, fillers, or base.

post #68 of 84

 

Quote:

Sigh, yet again you guys have the proper ski storage techniques all wrong.

 

Since we're quoting old advice posts on the subject, there's also this one:

 

Quote:

Skis should be stored resting on their backs (never their sides!) in small beds without pillows or loose bedding. Skis enjoy simple high-contrast mobiles. You should also consider a cordless ski monitor.

 

post #69 of 84

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzinwin View Post

 

 

 

one tip--instead of using universal temp wax, you might want to try using a softer wax designed for warm-temp snow.  Softer waxes will absorb more easily in to the base and protect it better.  What I do is keep the skis waxed with the soft wax.  Then, before I ski, I will scrape off the soft wax, and iron in a temp specific wax or universal temp wax.  Wait one day, then scrape, brush, and ski. 

 

Um, but that would require more than twice as much work.  Using a general purpose wax leaves them ready to rock for first chair next fall.  And,  in thirty years, I've never seen any added utility of using a different wax for storage when I don't scrape it off until I'm ready to ski on it.  I have skis that are over 20 years old in all climates, even salt air, and the bases have never oxidized when stored with a thick coat of general purpose wax.  Special wax just for storage being better is a myth I have busted..

post #70 of 84

Well I wont get into this argument. But, Here is my end of season ski storage prep rundown.

 

Make sure that my skis are dry and at room temp. I let them sit inside for a two days. I then hot scrape them to remove any dirt or anything along those lines. I then use base cleaner (very sparingly) I then use a universal wax or base prep as my storage wax. I then place them standing up facing all base side down against the wall (to limit the dust that will fall on the bases).

 

When ski season rolls around. I dust off the dust of the storage wax with a towel and an air hose. I then scrape my skis (I do not heat them up first). I then hot scrape using base prep. Sometimes it is shocking to see how much dirt acquired in your ski bases over the summer even with a storage wax on.  This is the one of the few times I use base cleaner. I then re-wax my skis. with 2 coats of base prep with followed by at least two coats of temp specific wax for my race skis. I use universal wax for my park skis, and other skis that are not a race stock ski.

 

When I buy a pair of skis. I hot scrape immediately and then use base cleaner (with a rag and never sprayed directly on the bases) then I put down four coats of base prep and four coats of temperature specific wax or universal wax depending on what type of ski it is.

 

Now, I am one of the most nit picky persons you will ever meet around ski equipment. I do also enjoy waxing. I wax nearly before every outing and you know what, I know that it has helped protect all of my skis. Some of the base damage I have incurred has been very minimal due to the amounts of wax in the bases of my skis.

 

post #71 of 84

Been reading this thread and see a LOT (pretty much ALL) of this discussion is about something I have NEVER seen (Pasty white on the Ptek base... or whatever material now substitutes for PTEX).  My only question is ...."How do I prevent my EDGES from rusting over the summer while in storage"?  I live in North Carolina which isn't the MOST humid but it is "fairly" humid.  Enough so that even after wiping the edges down and leaving them out to ensure they are dry for two of three days at the end of the summer, then wiping them down once more and storring them in a ski bag (dry), they STILL seem to have surface rust on them the following season.  I've always tuned my own skiis (for the past 35+ years) so throwing a quick, easy coat of wax is an "easy" fix as there is plenty left over at the end of the season.  I am more than happy to skip it and simpy put a coat of WD-40 on the edges before putting them in the bag.  So, for the experts.  Should I wax the edges or WD-40 them or...  The only thing I do not have the ability to do is to "vacuum seal" them (but you can tell I have thought about what it would take...)

post #72 of 84

Do you keep them indoors, with air conditioning?  That would eliminate humidity concerns.  I'm a bit further north in tidewater VA, which is humid as heck, and don't have any issues.  I keep my skis in the house in a spare closet.  Some get wax on the edges, some don't.

 

post #73 of 84

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post

Be  I've always tuned my own skiis (for the past 35+ years) so throwing a quick, easy coat of wax is an "easy" fix as there is plenty left over at the end of the season.  I am more than happy to skip it and simpy put a coat of WD-40 on the edges before putting them in the bag.  So, for the experts.  Should I wax the edges or WD-40 them or...  The only thing I do not have the ability to do is to "vacuum seal" them (but you can tell I have thought about what it would take...)


Hot wax them and be sure the edges are covered. Don't scrape the wax off until you're getting ready to go next season.  WD40 isn't recommended because it can prevent wax from sticking when you want it to stick.

post #74 of 84

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post

Been reading this thread and see a LOT (pretty much ALL) of this discussion is about something I have NEVER seen (Pasty white on the Ptek base... or whatever material now substitutes for PTEX).  My only question is ...."How do I prevent my EDGES from rusting over the summer while in storage"?  I live in North Carolina which isn't the MOST humid but it is "fairly" humid.  Enough so that even after wiping the edges down and leaving them out to ensure they are dry for two of three days at the end of the summer, then wiping them down once more and storring them in a ski bag (dry), they STILL seem to have surface rust on them the following season.  I've always tuned my own skiis (for the past 35+ years) so throwing a quick, easy coat of wax is an "easy" fix as there is plenty left over at the end of the season.  I am more than happy to skip it and simpy put a coat of WD-40 on the edges before putting them in the bag.  So, for the experts.  Should I wax the edges or WD-40 them or...  The only thing I do not have the ability to do is to "vacuum seal" them (but you can tell I have thought about what it would take...)


I have about 5 more years on you, but I also have never seen this white or gray patch that some call oxidized surface. Main thing to me is dry your skis, hot wax or rub in paste wax, a drop or two of light machine oil on a rag and carefully wipe edges. All my skis are always stored on a wall rack in the bedroom. Never ever ever in a bag or case.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

 


Hot wax them and be sure the edges are covered. Don't scrape the wax off until you're getting ready to go next season.  WD40 isn't recommended because it can prevent wax from sticking when you want it to stick.


My skis are always ready for the snow. No need to scrape or brush. I have never had any waxing problem while using oil on my edges. Light oil on the edges, not the bases.
 

post #75 of 84

Wax is good for your skis. Agreed?

 

Flouros are tough on bases, hydrocarbon is the right choice for a storage wax. I wouldn't leave flouros on my skis for more than a couple days. I only flouro when I'm racing. After the race the skis get put away after a hot wax and scrape with hydrocarbon then another hot wax with hydrocarbon without scraping.

 

The bases of skis will wear and if not properly treated, will not slide well. Sliding is what skiing is about. Anything that will make skis slide better is a good thing.

 

Don't overlook smooth edges. They don't have to be sharp, but if the aren't smooth, they won't slide. Carry a stone with you when you ski. Carry a knife (or use a ski edge in a pinch) to peel off damaged base while skiing. Additionally if you don't keep your edges in good condition, you run the risk of damaging your iron.

 

What will kill a base faster than a rock or a nail in a lift loading deck?

 

A wax iron.

 

Whatever wax you choose to use, rub it on the bases first, then drip on a line of wax, then iron. The rubbed on wax helps prevent the hot iron from coming in direct contact with the base. Don't let your iron sit too long in one place; it will cook (ruin) the base and might delaminate your ski as well.

 

Wax you skis often and leave the with wax on.

post #76 of 84

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonrpen View Post

 
My skis are always ready for the snow. No need to scrape or brush. I have never had any waxing problem while using oil on my edges. Light oil on the edges, not the bases.
 


Problem with that is it keeps wax from sticking to the edges.   You want a micro thin coat of wax on your edges too for an ideal tune.  If there's any oil at all on the edges your defeating the point of waxing, and on the must susceptible part of the ski to frosting.

 

post #77 of 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Wax is good for your skis. Agreed?

 

Flouros are tough on bases, hydrocarbon is the right choice for a storage wax. I wouldn't leave flouros on my skis for more than a couple days. I only flouro when I'm racing.


Actually if you have money (read: if wax is paid by national team :)) fluoro is quite good choice for transportation/storage wax. When I was still in skiing (also last few years as serviceman), yellow Toko Dibloc was my choice of transportation/storage wax. More fluoro skis can get, better it is. But in my mind, it's way to expensive for recreational skier, so basically any wax will do. But if you want at least kinda decent skis, even for recreational use, storage wax is must... and definitely no oil on edges as someone suggested. Wax does it's job fine and it doesn't scre*** ski base as oil does (there's no way anyone can put oil just on edges without hitting at least a bit of ski base).

post #78 of 84

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post

Wax is good for your skis. Agreed?

 

Flouros are tough on bases, hydrocarbon is the right choice for a storage wax. I wouldn't leave flouros on my skis for more than a couple days. I only flouro when I'm racing.

 


Actually if you have money (read: if wax is paid by national team :)) fluoro is quite good choice for transportation/storage wax. When I was still in skiing (also last few years as serviceman), yellow Toko Dibloc was my choice of transportation/storage wax. More fluoro skis can get, better it is. But in my mind, it's way to expensive for recreational skier, so basically any wax will do. But if you want at least kinda decent skis, even for recreational use, storage wax is must... and definitely no oil on edges as someone suggested. Wax does it's job fine and it doesn't scre*** ski base as oil does (there's no way anyone can put oil just on edges without hitting at least a bit of ski base).


 

What? Huh?

post #79 of 84

Please enlighten me. I thought that flouro hot wax, while fast under the right conditions, was harsh to the bases. It sounds like you think they are better for storage/travel than hydrocarbons. Are there benefits/advantages to storing with flouro instead of hydrocarbon?

 

Is there a difference in the long term effect of a flouro hot wax vs a flouro overlay. Which is to say if I took a pair of skis to a race and prepped them with some Helix and/or Jetstream, would it be ok to leave the overlays on if I ended up not skiing on the skis? Or should I hot scrape them to remove them?

 

 

 

post #80 of 84

Yeah, I was stunned to see that as well.  I was always told to remove the fluoro within a day or two to protect the bases AND that it wasn't the right wax for all conditions.

post #81 of 84

I'm not saying high fluoro waxes (especially fluoro powders and/or blocks like Cera F or Jetstream/Streamline) are right waxes for all conditions. They work better then rest most of times, but definitely not always. But anyway... this is not point of this thread anyway ;)

Yes fluoro waxes don't hurt base. There's really no need to get rid of Cera F or Jetstream next second you get skis away. Ok for me it was normal to put transportation wax on skis right after race, so this kinda does exactly what you wrote MastersRacer, to HF powders, but still. But as I wrote, my favorite transportation wax was yellow Toko Dibloc which is high fluoro wax, and racing service version had even a bit higher percentage of fluoro as normal store version had. I was doing this for skis with which people were skiing WC races, and most of time, they have one of fastest skis around, so I guess it wasn't all that wrong :)

post #82 of 84

Just a thought, going in a slightly different direction regarding the fluoros:

 

Even if a fluoro wax were bad to have put on your bases, how would leaving it there matter? Unless you're heating the ski up enough to melt the wax, a fluoro wax practically defines the word "inert."

 

I could see a desire to brush it out really well and rewax with some other wax more suited to the condition you're next going to encounter, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the wax just sitting there is "doing" anything.

post #83 of 84

I don't know where my assumption that 'fluoro is bad for bases' comes from other than listening to racing buddies. It is nice to know that I don't have to rush to hot scrape the old fluoros out. That was getting in the way of beer thirty. ;o)

 

When you were putting yellow Toko Dibloc on for travel, were you likely to be using a flouro when it came time to race so a fluoro for travel was in the right direction to start? I use HC in CO for most races (System 3 Red rules in CO) along with Helix and JetStream; I'll mix S3 and Dibloc too. With red S3 as a travel wax, if I have to jump on my skis without a prep session before to get the right wax, I am not going to miss. On injected snow, where the WC is raced, flouros are fast.

 

What it seems to boil down to is wax when you are done with a ski, with whatever. Don't leave skis bare.

post #84 of 84
Quote:

 When you were putting yellow Toko Dibloc on for travel, were you likely to be using a flouro when it came time to race so a fluoro for travel was in the right direction to start?

 

Not really... Yellow Dibloc is, or at least it was (I'm out of this job for few years now) soft wax. It takes less effort to melt it, and to penetrate base, and for me it was easier to scrap off soft waxes then hard ones, especially after week :)

Transportation wax was never base for anything. It got scrapped off, and then right waxes (fluoros or not) were used (for training or for races). But in general, I would say we were using high fluoro waxes about 90% of time. But as I wrote, they are not always best, and finding out when they are best, takes lot of time and money for testing, and "a bit" of experiences :)

I was in xc skiing, not alpine skiing, and in xc skiing right wax plays much bigger role then with alpine, since snow conditions are different, and proper glide (not to mention proper kick for classic races) is harder to achieve, then when you have mostly same, water injected snow, and you have to push on flat, not almost flying in air down the 60 degree downhill. When I was talking with friends who are servicemen in alpine WC, they said difference between right and wrong wax is less then 0.3sec in 1 minute. But 0.3sec can still be victory or 10th place, so it's not like they wouldn't do anything. Not to mention in alpine skiing, you have other things, with which I didn't need to bother in xc :)

Anyway, it wasn't really unusual that for last two days before races, we didn't get any sleep, and we were out testing all night long before races start. So you can imagine how much money and time is spend this way ;) So there's really no problem to scrap off transportation wax and start with right wax every time. But yeah, WC is completely different level then anything else.

 

 

Quote:

What it seems to boil down to is wax when you are done with a ski, with whatever. Don't leave skis bare.


Definitely. Whenever you put skis away, they should have storage wax. If it's fluoro it is, if it's not it's not. Main point is that there is wax on base. Ok I agree it's too much for recreational skier to put storage wax on skis when he quits skiing on Sunday, and he will go skiing again next Friday, but on end of season, when skis are away for few months, storage wax should be on skis. And anyone who cares at least a bit about his/her skis, should really do this.

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