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Cause and Effect...what are you favorite "Packages"

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
Here is the thread I've been waiting to find the right place to start. I'm sure now this is it:

When I was reading Bob B's Encyclopedia of Skiing this spring, I came upon text in the "Cause and Effect" entry that describes one "Cause and Effect Package". To summarize:

Fish-hook shaped turn,
Upper body rotation to start the turn,
Tendency to face uphill @ turn completion,
Lots of knee angulation; little hip angnulation,
A-frame stance
Banking into the turn

Cause: Too far forward on the skis.

The section is great, and I encourage everyone to read it, or re-read it. This hit me at the perfect time, right in the middle of struggling to sort out the chickens from the eggs before certification exams, and I cried "Eureka!", but sadly, htat's all Bob gave us for now, and I've been lusting for more gems ever since.

Surely there is a collection of people here that can help assemble (and critique?) a super-list of the most incisive "packages" from all the years of skiing and observing. Any more gems to collect?

Bill Ward
post #2 of 10
Katie & Megan, Fall '99. Weems and Squatty is Winter of '95 issue.
post #3 of 10
That was a great article, the guy Roto described, I believe they refered to as the "Digme" guy. Lock-foot, heel thrust dude.
We all have (sometimes unflatteringly) identified "skier packages", like the Patrolturner,long swooping turns with shoulder rotation, locked feet. Sone are offensive, some defensive.
Steriotyping, while it doesn't always identify cause and effect for the student your watching, does categorize groups of compatable or related movement patterns, and frequently many skiers fit into 5 or 6 types.
Glad Bob revived this thread, it disappeared before I had a chance to join it.
post #4 of 10
I have often wondered about the P-Roll myself. And have copied the moves to get the feel. Though my thoughts are opinion, here they are.

The obnoxious conditions noted above are part of the deal. So are the fencing and sign adjustments. Patrollers spend a large portion of their time skiing these obnoxious conditions too slow (with packs on) for anything else to work as they work along fences, from towerpad to towerpad, etc. Making two to five turns at slow speed in knee deep slop requiring a stop in a specific spot is tough. It nearly precludes any use of dynamic motion. Having done it a little I can say the roll fits the bill nicely. Anywhere else? Well, it werks. It gets 'em down the hill.
post #5 of 10
Yeah,'trolls...do not take offense! It IS an efficient, powerful "get there' techique, and I know a number of strong, technically strong, ski everything well patrols.
One, the Purgatory patrol actually consistently beat the schoolies every year racing. Mr. Oswald (pro racer) demanded functional technique, and they could rock the race course.
I think the roll, is only functionally blocked by a tobbagan. I have given well recieved clinic to trolls on pivot slipping without one though!
It is funny about steriotyping. Even the walk up "look" betrays their "package"!
I like this thread, perhaps we can establish some new "classics" for the book.<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Robin (edited September 02, 2001).]</FONT>
post #6 of 10
One of my personal favorites to see and ski(for 7 turns at a time).

Feet locked, leaned back, double heel thrust to edge set(accompanied by equal amount of chin thrust), no knee angles, extreme hip angle, elbow to hip bone with raised fist prior to pole plant.

Once you ski it, it all fits together so well. When I see curious movement packages I follow them around until I can duplicate them. Then I know what they are feeling and why they are doing it.

CAUSE: sitting/leaning back...Though I once traded skis with a student and the tune on his skis made me ski exactly like him. It was crazy. I told him to get them fixed and he said they were 'cuz his buddy werked in a shop and did them for free. I took three runs on them and COULD NOT bend my ankles while turning.

related to me in conversation on a chair..

"So I asked this patrol guy, man, how do you guys ski with your feet together like that? How can I learn to do that? And the guy took a belt out of his pack, strapped my knees together and skied off. Man, if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be the skier I am today...." <FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by Roto (edited September 02, 2001).]</FONT>
post #7 of 10
The key to ubiquity of style in the patrol ranks (especially the ones with white among the strands of hair and whiskers) is that the national organization adopted a set of ski maneuvers half a century ago and insisted for years on candidates performing finished forms of that era for their skiing tests. Now that they're requiring their trainers to have at least a PSIA Level I, the approach should become somewhat more "modern".
post #8 of 10
Thread Starter 
Bob, thanks for riding in to rescue this thread! I thought it was a goner, but its already compiling some great stuff.

Thie Westfeldt/Schuler article, yeah, you reference that in the book, and I tried to hunt it down. Unfortunately, that issue of Professional Skier predates my instructing career, but I'm sure I can find a buddy that has a back issue. The Katie and Megan article is in the TPS archives: http://www.psia.org/Education/TPSArt...assessment.asp When I looked for the Weems & Squatty online last Spring though, I couldn't find a link (though there are a couple of things that predate it). Perhaps we can lobby someone to have it added? There was also mention of some coat pocket cards somewhere that I thought might be related. But I've never seen them, and I haven't yet found them in PSIA's catalogs.

Thank you to all posters so far. I think this kind of knowledge is a great bridge in developing movement analysis proficiency. In fact, I'll hazard a guess that master instructors/trainers/examiners...the ones that can nail a skier in one or two turns...often use "packages" without even thinking about it. Once they see a couple of unique "tell-tales", they draw on a storehouse of experience and can tell you the rest of the symptoms---and the cause--without observing anything else. But drawing out (and committing to memory) the implicit grouping of information can be so useful to a less experienced instructor.

Keep them coming everybody. At this rate, these will be staples of our school's weekly movement analysis evenings this winter.

Bill<FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by ww (edited September 04, 2001).]</FONT><FONT size="1">

[This message has been edited by ww (edited September 04, 2001).]</FONT>
post #9 of 10
Thread Starter 
Hi Bob, good tip on the URL. That's what I get for trying to punctuate sentences. THanks for the offer on the print, I'll let you know if I come up empty.

Season start isn't as reliable here as up north...all I know is it never starts soon enough! Our own ski school basically skipped two years before last year's banner year, but that's almost unheard of.

Taos and Santa Fe reliably start Thanksgiving weekend, a little sooner if they can, and Taos expands the open area quicker. They're always able to hold clinics during the first December weekend. We usually start with a veteran's day tune-up north of the border in Wolf Creek, since they get dumped on regularly and we're so hungry by then.

We did have great snow for those spring Santa Fe clinics, and it held up for exams for the most part. I did catch sight of you there while folks were clearing out of the lodge...someone pointed you out. It was too hectic to flag you down and say hello, but I won't let it go by again! I do hope you get down this way soon.

I'm really pumped up for this year. Due to my successful exam, this'll be my first shot at Mini Academy. Woo hoo!! I wonder if it's at Winter Park again this year?

The aspens aren't turning as strongly here yet, but the hint of it is in the air, and mornings are definitely brisk already. And it's still wet! I have high hopes. But then, I always have high hopes.

Sweet snow dreams,
post #10 of 10

Your description of the "Patrol Roll" brought back some fond and distant memories. As a former NSPS patroller and trainer (NH,VT,MA) your description of the "Roll" was right on the money. And yes, it was from the French Technique. Why? Because it worked for us in the worst snow conditions possible. When we conducted our "on-the-hill" training, standard operating procedure was to always train on the worst snow conditions and the steepest part of the mountain. No Patroller was cut any slack. When patrollers saw that the "Roll" worked, they quickly adapted to it. Likewise, on rare occasions when we had to close the mountain due to unsafe conditions, our patrollers still had to sweep all the trails. It was common to finish the sweeps with flashlights in darkness. Bottomline? The "Roll" worked well. The patrollers who used it were solid skiers who could get an injured skier safely down the mountain in ANY snow conditions at ANY speed.

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