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slight wedge when carving

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 

When I'm carving, I notice that my outside ski is not exactly parallel with my inside ski.  The outside ski seems to be carving a slightly tighter radius turn than my inside ski, so that I'm almost in like a slight wedge.  Is this normal/good?

 

Another question: when carving, should there be any active attempt to  invert or evert the ankle of the inside ski while the inside leg is flexed?  Should there be active ankle flexion of the inside ski?  What about ankle movements of the outside ski?  Should I try to evert the ankle of the outside ski in order to achieve a higher edge angle on that ski? (I'm guessing, no..)  Should there be any active attemps to manipulate the ankles at all during a carve?  

post #2 of 13

Check your alignment: I have the same issue, one leg is a bit shorter than the other, therefore my hips are not quite square, giving me the dreaded A-frame.  Try skiing on a beginner slope with your skis completely parallel: can you do it?  If not, you may have a boot alignment issue.  I added 5mm to one boot, and it dropped the A-frame by 1/2, but it is still there.  

 

2nd question: some people say articulate the ankle to adjust the turn radius, but I don't know how useful it is: for me, I think of relaxing the ankle at the top of the turn so that I can leave the old turn and roll into the new one. You can't really do much articulating inside of a ski boot, so it is probably more effective to increase the flex and release at the top of the old turn to tighten up the radius.  You should have parallel edge angles if you are releasing correctly.   

post #3 of 13

I have a feeling that ankle flexion plays an ultra-important role in manipulating the fore/aft balance and therefore is essential?

post #4 of 13

When I had this problem - a slight wedge after I got into the curve and should have been in parallel carving position -  I discovered that I had my weight a little too far back as I turned towards the fall line.

 

The cause of this was a trace of nervousness starting the turn.

The result of this was that I had too much weight on the tail of the inside ski, and that drag, friction - whatever you'd like to call it - kept me from getting it parallel.

 

I began to actively pull the inside ski back, getting the tip close to being even with the tip of the outside ski. When I did this my weight came more forward on the inside ski, and it was easier for me to get it parallel and edge properly.

In my own experience too much lead on the tip of the inside ski caused too much drag on the tail of that ski, and it hung up a bit wide of getting parallel.

 

To this day, I still feel a bit of panic sometimes as I start my turns - when surrounded by reckless skiers and boarders racing past at unsafe speeds - and I find myself leaning back just a bit as I start my turn, getting that wedge problem, and then quickly compensate.

 

post #5 of 13

If your skis are diverging and converging while you are carving then at one point your skis will be in a slight wedge. Also consider that your outside ski is on a bigger radius than your inside ski and that your outside ski carries more weight and is therefore easier to bend into a tighter radius than your inside ski. Kind of the complete opposite of what you want.

 

Yes, you should pull back your inside ski but not as far as getting rid of tip lead. Has nothing to do with it actually. Just enough that you maintain edge pressure and that the ski remains performing. However, pulling back the inside ski is of no use if you are not tipping it on edge at the same time. These two movements go together.

 

Yes, you can use your ancle inside the boot to tip your ski on edge. IMO its functional when you invert your inside foot ancle and keep your outside ancle neutral. In fact, dont do any active movements with your outside leg at all. Just extend it and keep your weight on it. Stand against it. However, its not necessary to use the inside ancle for tipping. Many good skiers and even WC skiers dont do that.

post #6 of 13

One reason for creating the wedge in a parallel carve (other than outright physical issues or alignment issues) is that you are not committing to the outside ski sufficiently. The inside ski supports too much weight so you effectively "can afford" to let the outside ski be pushed out.

post #7 of 13
Quote:

When I'm carving, I notice that my outside ski is not exactly parallel with my inside ski.  The outside ski seems to be carving a slightly tighter radius turn than my inside ski, so that I'm almost in like a slight wedge.  Is this normal/good?

It depends on your skis if you have much more weight on the outside ski it might bend more and turn sharper, altho mine don't even when I lightly lift the inside ski off the snow.  Or, you are too far forward or not enough counter and that ski's tail is losing grip.

 

Quote:

Another question: when carving, should there be any active attempt to  invert or evert the ankle of the inside ski while the inside leg is flexed?  Should there be active ankle flexion of the inside ski?  What about ankle movements of the outside ski?  Should I try to evert the ankle of the outside ski in order to achieve a higher edge angle on that ski? (I'm guessing, no..)  Should there be any active attemps to manipulate the ankles at all during a carve? 

Inverting (tipping up on the little toe edge) the inside foot inside the boot impels the body toward the inside of the turn and puts your skis on edge.  Allow the inside knee and inside hip to drop toward the snow---be sure to get the hips across the skis.  At the top of the turn strongly invert the new inside foot (presently the downhill foot) to get your body to the inside of the new turn and get the skis on their new inside edges.  This can (and should) be done before the ski change direction.  Pick a target on the side of the run and switch edges while the skis are still moving straight toward that target.  Active ankle flexion is a weak movement.  Instead, strongly pull the inside foot back using the strong hamstring muscles at the same time you're inverting and lightening the inside foot.  Don't evert (press on the big toe edge) of the outside ski.  This is a limiting movement that ends when your knees touch.  If that big toe edge is pressed into the snow it can skid out on hard snow.  Invert the ankle of the inside foot more and more and more through the turn.

post #8 of 13
Thread Starter 

I found this article--it might help to explain what's going on....http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/inside_ski.htm

 

I also found this article interesting--it seems to suggest that for 80% of the turn, there should be minimal angulation or  counter..hmmmm: http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/tendencies.htm

post #9 of 13

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzinwin View Post

 

I found this article--it might help to explain what's going on....http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/inside_ski.htm

 

I also found this article interesting--it seems to suggest that for 80% of the turn, there should be minimal angulation or  counter..hmmmm: http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/tendencies.htm

 

you ever think that that site is excactly the most knowledgable source of skiing technique on the web?

 

I wish the epic search feature wasnt so bad but I have great post somewhere about diverging and converging skis.

 

found it

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

first this assuming RR track turns like the one pictured. if we go beyond it opens up a whole new can of worms.

let talk about decambeing a ski. in the bigger pictures its a really small force that is required to decamber a ski so small in fact that moderate speed RR track turns barely put a ski into reverse camber in alot of cases.

curious 4ster on scale of 1-10 how 'dynamic' were those turns, that produce the tracks pictured. My guess is about 6. I could be wrong but just follow me. I am still curious in your opinion how dynamic they are.

lets say for a railroad track turns on dynamic scale of 1-10, a 1 is very flat slope with min edging but still RR turning, a 4 or 5 is the average park and ride turn we see everyday from the public being made on blue groomers, a 7-8 is instructor skiing kinda of fast. a 8-9 is racer freeskiing, and lastly a 10 is a great SL racer in SL gates. I am assuming alot but those are rough real world averages of what how 'dynamic" peoples RR turns are on the hill.

let say all the ways up to say 5 that both ski are being pressure nearly equally and edge nearly equally, there doesnt have to be divergence in the tip in this level. the skis simply decamber the right amount with out much thought on whats happening with (passive) rotary movements.

Let take it up a notch and we will find one of the biggest flaws or myths about how our skis railroad track turn. during extremely tight carves(think SL or near raduis) the inside ski simply can not follow the same path as the outside ski. there are many ways to get around this, the most common you see in high end skiers is slightly diverging tips. the outside ski will have alot more pressure on it than the inside ski, this mean not only is the outside ski bent more its also taking a larger arc. That arc get larger proportionally to inside ski arc, as the turn raduis gets smaller. so again is a slightly diverging tip. this shows up in videos over and over again.





also notice in the second video the changing stance width, it never stays the same. its not a technique flaw at all is just what has to happen to allow both skis to arc cleanly in those very tight arcs.

so to answer your question 4ster

'If the outside ski bends more than the inside ski in a turn, how is it that the tracks in the snow appear parallel'


they appear parallel in the turns you showed because you werent that dynamic. In a dynamic railroad track turn like the ones I showed in the video parallel tracks are not left but instead its 2 nearly concentric circles that get closer together during the transition.

So IMO parallel tracks need not a be a goal or a by product of a good RR turn unless you are trying to pass a PSIA exam. think outside the box and I think you will agree with me that they should not be parallel in the highest end of turns.

 

I also still contend youcanski.com is a pretty crap website not some place Id be picking up tips from.

post #10 of 13
Thread Starter 

I don't see what you have against the ifyoucanski site.  The articles there seems to make a lot of sense and the guy (Greg Gurshman) seems to be a reputable WC coach.  Plus, he backs up all of his claims with actual world cup photo montages.

 

I went to the ronlemaster site and looked at some more photos myself (http://www.ronlemaster.com/index.html).  I saw a lot of what Greg was talking about---very little angulation in the beginning/middle of the turn.  Actually, in all of the pictures I see--the skier looks like a airplane--with huge amounts of banking during the early part of the turn.  All the angulation comes late in the turn, after the fall line and right before the transition.

 

I can also clearly see the point about the converging skis.  IN all the pictures, the downhill ski is carving a tighter arc than the uphill ski, which seems almost straight in comparison. 

 

And finally, I can also see his point about weight transfer.  At the beginning, the weight seems to be focused on the front/middle of the downhill ski, while at the end of the turn, the weight is transfered to the tail of the downhill ski.

 

So everything this guy says is backed up by the evidence.

 

btw, thanks for finding the post about converging skis--it makes a lot of sense.

post #11 of 13

Those two moves...inclining in the beginning of the turn and angulating at the end and weight on the tails at the end of the turns...require an extremely talented athlete to pull off without failure.  Yes, they are fast.  The least possible edge angle to hold a carve is fastest, then angulate very quickly at the "turning point" to pass the gate is fast if done exactly right.  Ditto for getting back on the tails, having the skis jet forward, then recentering in time to start the next turn.  Very hard to do exactly right, fast when done exactly right, and easy to screw up.

post #12 of 13

The information on www.youcanski.com is fine -- there is nothing wrong with it.

 

Please note that the source for the basic technique described on that web-site is the GS turn -- the "mother of all turns".

post #13 of 13


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

 

 

 

 

I also still contend youcanski.com is a pretty crap website not some place Id be picking up tips from.


 You are right, that suck. IMO Le Master's stuff as well.

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