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Powder Points - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Lisa,

You can't be much older than 35, can you? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, not much more to add here, but I didn't answer one question you had.

You asked about teaching skiers on icy NewEngland slopes. I just happen to believe that skiers in NewEngland can be taught the same as skiers in CO. Snow, is snow, is snow. It gets icy here too ya know.
post #32 of 57
SCSA, you really need to get out more.

I've experienced Colorado "ice". It's not ice until you can see your face reflected in it.
post #33 of 57
I do agree that a properly made footbed from one store is as good as the next. But footbeds can make a huge difference in ones skiing.

DAve you asked for a case in point. Here are not one but two. I had a 45ish male student who had tried skiing about 10 times. He was comfortable going up the easier chair, so off we went. Oops on me. I never watched him ski. After a one hour private I got on the phone to find a boootfitter/alignment specialist (The one I usually use was out of town.) Bill sim[ly could not stand on his downhill ski, if he tried it just washed out and slipped downhill. The client drove 100 miles to the nearest boot fitter that night. The boots fitter had spent two hours with him building footbeds, canting boot cuffs, and boot soles.
The next moring I went out to meet him. He already had his skiis on. He moved straight toward me on an edged. That day he was able to do everything asked of him for the first time.

Several weeks later I was teaching his daughter. After 30 minutes she was so frustrated that she wanted to quit. WE went inside, took her boots off, rolled her pants up and I looked at her feet and legs. Yeap, she is her father's daughter. That night I took her to the local bootfitter Had insoles made and cuffs canted. Now she can't wait to get on the slopes.

In my own skiing, after my leg was broken there was no way I could ski like I had, if at all, without extensive work to one boot to fix a crooked, short leg along with stiff ankle and metatarsal joints from months in a cast.
post #34 of 57
Kneale,

Well, on that definition, I guess our ice is, "nice", eh?
post #35 of 57
It's been interesting to read the various replies on this subject. It seems that the idea of teaching and practicing skills is being overlooked. Whether you follow PSIA, PMTS, Lito,GLM,etc. the common denominator are movements. A basic application of tipping ,turning ,flexing /extending movements are a must for any skier trying to achieve a breakthrough performance. An analogy can be made to a pianist tying to play Bach but can't play the scales. What it takes is practicing different drills that focus on movements and constintly practice,on the flats ,steeper terrain ,slow fast, long turns ,short turns. All the great skiers continue to work at their skiing and often times by working on skiiings "scales" basic movement patterns on easier terrain. LM good luck and Ihope you have many more powder days ahead.
post #36 of 57
I am uneasy with the generalizations made in this topic. i.e. direct to parallel is for everyone.

Sorry but there is no everyone. Each person is individual in all aspects. Until you have faced this on a daily basis in all weather and all conditions it is pretty hard to make credible generalizations.

Are we expecting that LM will go from Level 1 to Level 9 in 3 seasons (sixty intermitent days). Sounds to me like the girl is doing just fine. IMHO LM could only have got this far with professional individually tailored instruction.

Keep it up girl, ya doing fine.

Oz
post #37 of 57
It's always fascinating to see how often new threads in this forum evolve (degenerate?) into arguments over teaching technique, of narrow stance vs wide stance, of PMTS vs PSIA. Of narrow vs wide, of long vs short.

It's also fascinating to see how seldom any of this is relevant to the original topic.
post #38 of 57
Isn't this kind of silly? I've never seen/read/heard a negative review of fat skis in powder, so even if you don't NEED them, if you can get them you should try them out! Whatever makes it better, right?
post #39 of 57
David7,

If there wasn't anything to argue about, what fun would it be?

"Oh hi, I'm Sam Skier. I made these turns today. First I turned left, then I turned right, then I went home. What do you guys think about that, eh"?

I suppose we could sit around here all the time talking about how the femur relates to skiing. Boy, wouldn't that be great for page views - AC would love that.

Or, I guess we could talk about the latest gang news.
"Hi, Fritz Silverman here reporting from Aspen. Today, we talked about what color our uniforms will be next year. Then, Marcia Magnificent from the national team presented a new way to teach wedge turns. Everyone left wide eyed and bushy tailed".

post #40 of 57
Thread Starter 
SCSA, I think its great that for the most part, we did not sit around TALK about skiing at Fernie. The analysis happens here on epicski, not on the hill.


Back on topic. This is interesting. Did anyone read the "Out with the old, In with the new" article in Ski magazine?

Look at the section on powder. Stu Campbell describes the old technique as having the skis rebound or "porpoise" towards the next turn. The skis are kept flat, and the feet are close together. Turns were made very close to the fall line.

This is pretty much what I was taught at Fernie.
post #41 of 57
OK - I haven't a clue as to my 'level' but I ski anywhere, any conditions. Just demo'd and bought AK Launchers. They were so much fun in the Mt Hood crud that I didn't even try another fatty. Dude, that's unheard of for me! I usually ski every available thing until I find the least worst. I had way too much fun on the AK's ... had to pull the trigger. The fatty is a tool, you buy it to use when it's the right tool for the job. For me anyway, my job on the hill these days is to maximize the fun - o - meter! As for the footbed thing. I don't think it's the brand as much as the guy who makes them. You know the whole boot fit thing is voodoo. when you find a guy that can do it you latch on and don't let go! The bed is just one aspect of the fit.

As far as LM is concerned, next time she's out west, if it's a Powder Day she should rent the fatty get out the door and rip it up. It takes way too long for most folks to get skiing in Powder and on the fatty, the fun-o-meter pegs quickly indeed. Maybe she get's the feel and that let's her do it on skinny gear later either way bet she has more fun startring on the fatty!
post #42 of 57
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Stu Campbell describes the old technique as having the skis rebound or "porpoise" towards the next turn. The skis are kept flat, and the feet are close together. Turns were made very close to the fall line.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does Stu describe the new technique for skiing powder?
post #43 of 57
Thread Starter 
The new methods were described by Mike Rogan. He says that powder skis allow the skier to make bigger, rounder sturns. Control speed by completing turns out of the fall line.

Supposedly, judges in the Powder 8 championship have noticed that the world's best powder skiers will complete a given run making about 25 turns. Years ago, it was close to 100.

Thoughts?
post #44 of 57
lisamarie- This is true rounder turns and the ski technology allows the ski to float without needing to aid it as much with the porpousing that a traditional ski would need or even yours with a 64 underfoot may require some more input from you. Powder and ice can be skied very close to the same way. One big thing is you are now IN the snow not ON it so there is a time delay that many eastern skiers are not comfortable with. You just now need to think of the whole ski being the edge to carve not just the metal part. More even weight foot to foot but that comes pretty nauturly.

As for the reason of 20 turns from 100 turns in powder eight competitions I think comes more from the fact that now speed is a big element of judging when years ago it was not.
post #45 of 57
What's interesting about about this thread is at the beginning of this season, I went out on a "mini clinic" with one of the upper level instructors at our ski school and it was a "Sierra cement" day. Knee deep.

As we made it down the hill, he told me I needed to "up unweight" more. (old technique?) I thought I was moving along fine in the powder just rolling over to the new edges and being patient. Am I missing something. I didn't need to turn for any specific reason as the hill was wide open. I was quite comfortable with my speed.

Thoughts?
post #46 of 57
SCSA's comment was that you "don't need" powder skis to ski powder. While this is true, a wider ski definitely enhances your ability to ski powder.

I, too, have had many days on old traditional slalom skis over the past 30 years in powder. Certainly, I didn't NEED fat, or mid fat, skis to have fun. But, the fact is that with my Bandit XX (74, I think, under foot) skiing powder is both less work an more fun.

CMH will tell you that the introduction of the fat ski has allowed them to bring in skiers of much less ability than before.

I have a friend, a former pro tennis player. He whoops me every time and uses (to make the statement) an old traditional, small headed racquet. Can he play with it? You are damned right he can. But, when he really plays, does he use a new carbon fibre large head racquet? Absolutely.

The question isn't whether it's necessary, but whether it enhances the experience.

Bob

LM, when are you and your husband going to come ski with me at Waterville?
post #47 of 57
WVSkier,

Do you think 74 is fat? I'm still thinking of it as a mid-fat. But, I guess it's right on the edge.

Anyway, yes, a fatter ski definitely helps. I know I wouldn't ski powder on my 66's (Cross Ti's). Well, I would, but I'd rather have my Super Cross Ti's (71 - oops. shame on me - they're 72).

Fatter skis have brought powder skiing enjoyment to "the masses". And that's a good thing. After all, the more skiers with smiles, the better off we all are, right? Grumpy skiers suck!


Cheers!
post #48 of 57
SCSA,

>>If Lisamarie is spending money on lessons and isn't improving, what do you make of that? <<

What I make of it is how do you know if she has improved or not. You've only seen her ski once. :

>>No reason on earth that she shouldn't be skiing really well.<<

Sure there is. She may just be afraid. She may be really cautious, or is comfortable with where she's at with her skiing. She has said herself that she is not real comfortable with the going down hill part of the turn. She probably does a lot of traversing across the hill. She probably leans up the hill quite a bit. Her skiing will probably NOT get better until she is willing to let her skis go and make a little bigger radius turn and gets more comfortable with the fall-line.

>>"You need a narrow stance" <<

Since I haven't seen LM ski, and don't know how wide her stance is, what is your take on a wide stance? How wide is wide? If wider than hip width, then yes, it may be a little too wide. But if she is hip width or a little less, then IMHO, she is right on. Locking ones feet together so that their boots are touching and their skis are banging together and disturbing the wild life went out with the 205cm ski. With the new shaped skis, they function much better with some distance between them. That is if one wants to carve their turns and not skid. But if one is skiing in the bumps and not carving, more of a pivoting type turn, then one can ski with them pretty close. I will go along with you that skiing with ones feet pretty close together in the powder works well. But I personally prefer to standardize my stance for all types of terrain, leaving about 8" or so between both inside edges.

>>: "Ask anyone here. A narrow stance is required for skiing powder and powder chop. It's also required for bumps. <<

No one asked me. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I do not believe that a narrow stance is required. But it may help some. Although, skiers that experience terrain that disturbs their balance, may benefit from a little wider stance, IMHO.--------------Wigs :
post #49 of 57
Thread Starter 
Wigs, now I know why I wanted you to be my teacher!
post #50 of 57
I guess it's all in the snow. I have no problem skiing all day in light powder like they have in Utah and Colorado on any ski I own (carving, mid-fat, or powder). It's just plain effortless when you get in the groove. However, when it gets heavy and/or variable (windblown, avalanche debris fields...) like it often does when your ski area's base elevation is 250' above sea level, I just can't make the same amount of runs on skinny skis before my legs give out and I start doing stupid stuff (defensive) just to hack my way down the mountain. Fat skis aren't required, but they extend my day and sustain the fun for a larger percentage of the day. I find I learn more and expand my skills more when I'm not tired, so a day on powder skis is usually a day well spent. Besides, that gives me more energy to hike out to find the fresh lines that others don't think to get.

Are they required? No.
Are they helpful? Yes.
post #51 of 57
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dchan:
As we made it down the hill, he told me I needed to "up unweight" more. (old technique?) I thought I was moving along fine in the powder just rolling over to the new edges and being patient. Am I missing something. I didn't need to turn for any specific reason as the hill was wide open. I was quite comfortable with my speed.

Thoughts?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did he tell you why? I am not sure why one would work more when there is no need to. It is like making short turns on a groomer, sure you can do it if you feel like.
post #52 of 57
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eug:


Did he tell you why? I am not sure why one would work more when there is no need to. It is like making short turns on a groomer, sure you can do it if you feel like.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

something about need to get the skis "out of the snow" to start them turning. I thought they were coming around fine in the crud. I was being patient and steering them around. I didn't think I was working very hard at all.
post #53 of 57
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dchan:


something about need to get the skis "out of the snow" to start them turning. I thought they were coming around fine in the crud. I was being patient and steering them around. I didn't think I was working very hard at all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He probably just wanted you to try different types of turns. Nothing wrong with passively riding the ski (and letting technology do most of the work), but you mentioned that this was a mini-clinic, so mixing it up is part of it. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #54 of 57
Lisamarie,

A few ideas to put away until your next powder trip:

Did you read chapter 7 in Lito's latest book?

Next time you go out west, arrange to rent some powder boards.

Powder skiing is three dimensional skiing. An unweighted ski will mean skis moving at two different velocities.
BOTH SKIS MUST ALWAYS HAVE SOME WEIGHT ON THEM. That's the hardest thing for midwest and eastern skkiers to learn before they can make real progress.

YOU ARE SKIING IN POWDER, not on top of it.

Going too fast, apply more pressure to your heels.Don't get in the back seat, just apply more pressure to your heels, as you finish the turn.

Turns are linked and continious but this is SLOW MOTION skiing. Fast jerky motions will only get you into trouble. Hockey stops, forget it!

Think of a bus driver steering with that huge steering wheel. You turn to all the way to the right, now turn all the way to the left. Your hands are out to the side for balance. They have to be becasue that steering wheel is so big.

Don't ski the powder steeps until you are very good on less steep slopes, and finally, you may have to go faster than you are used to, to achieve some flotation, but then the skiing is just so much easier.
post #55 of 57
Thread Starter 
One rather humerous thing I forgot to mention. When loading the Deer Lift at Fernie, right under your feet, there was something akin to a small pond! Weird. The lifties kept saying "Don't let your skis get in the water!" , but it was a bit of a challenge, not to! I noticed my skis were sticking alot, and I thought it was due to the rocks I had skied over in New England this season!

When I took them in to get tuned, the tech looked at me and said, "I guess you got your skis in the 'pond' on the deer lift!"

I looked at the bases. They had developed 2 big sheets of ice!
post #56 of 57
Took the words out of my mouth Wigs.
post #57 of 57
Just wanted to say thanks for some of the pointers on this topic. Thanks Wink...for some reason...probably because you made a lot of sense I had this voice in my head saying "BOTH SKIS MUST ALWAYS HAVE SOME WEIGHT ON THEM" and then combined with some great pointers from Ski&Golf and Pinhead and SCSA (yes him too! )from Copper well damn if it didn't just all come together nicely on the weekend !! wooo hoo... I had one of those...well thats how you do it experiences...

Anyway I just wanted to say thanks.

Still grinnin.

Miss Jane
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