Natasha Richardson seriously injured in Skiing accident - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrzinwin 

...

So is it sad that it happened?  Yes.  But realize that it's a freak accident.  What you should be scared about is what happens everyday--when you hear that some random guy dies in a car accident or drops dead because of a heart attack.  Usually doesn't even make the news.  But that is what should hit home.  Not this.

I certainly can't prove it, but my suspicion is that the drive to and from the ski hill is more dangerous than the skiing itself. Maybe I'm way off.

Still, people should be aware that head injuries need a little more attention than, say, ankle injuries. Sure, you can develop a blood clot from hurting your ankle and die from that, but there are just more weird things that can happen after a head impact. Just be aware and use the information wisely.

Two young boys are waking up today without a mother (assuming they were even able to sleep). A terribly sad thing.

I choose to believe that the ski patrol did for her what they would do for any injured skier.  Maybe the instructor gave them more encouragement to be thorough, but I believe that ski patrol service is all about people not personalities.

It is common for a person to be "OK" after a head bang and still be injured.  When I crashed at Lake Placid, the hit really hurt.  I had a difficult time getting over to the edge of the pool.  When I finally got out, I went over to my wife and told her how much the impact hurt.  Then I felt better, well enough to do more jumps.  It takes a while for the swelling to occur.  As confusion set in I was still able to continue even though something was seriously wrong.

My helmet didn't help because my face took the impact.  I had a very black left eye.

My hit did not seem serious to others.  It hurt like hell, but I figured it was just water.  Natasha's fall may have been much worse than it appeared to be.

I myself a former Medic, we had to have everyone regardless of the call if not transported to hospital sign a refusal AMA. Is this the same for patrol who check out injuerd skiers and recommend further evaluation. I CAN ONLY HOPE SO.

Many Patrollers will tell you that of the many of the accidents you respond to, you'll find that people will somettimes feel more embarassed and apologetic than actually discuss their injuries. Unless it's an obvious injury where the person broken something or can't function at all, the reaction is to shrug off their symtoms as being nothing, and not wanting to cause a fuss and draw more attention to their embarassment than necessary. Many times the hardest part of my job was to convince the person to let me help them and advise them to let us call an ambulance and get evaluated by a Doctor to be sure.

I'm guessing that because of her celebrity status, this was the  case where she didn't want to draw attention to the fact and made a paparazi ruckus with pictures in the National Enquirer etc. Frankly, I didn't know who she was when the story broke and i doubt I'd recognize the fact she was a movie star on the slopes. It would be really sad to think she refused further medical treatment because she was afraid of exposing her identity and drawing a circus reaction. Guess we'll never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BerthoudPass 

 

I myself a former Medic, we had to have everyone regardless of the call if not transported to hospital sign a refusal AMA. Is this the same for patrol who check out injuerd skiers and recommend further evaluation. I CAN ONLY HOPE SO.

Oh ya, all who refuse treatment have to  sign a release form and any witness's sign also. We always took testimony from anyone who witnessed the accident also.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lars 

 
 

Oh ya, all who refuse treatment have to  sign a release form and any witness's sign also. We always took testimony from anyone who witnessed the accident also.
 

That policy makes a lot more sense than the one at the water park in TX where I hit my head...they wouldn't treat me or get me help unless I signed some form that I couldn't even read because blood was running into my eyes. I could tell that it had nothing to do with accepting medical treatment, it seemed to be a blanket statement that the park had no liability for anything to do with my fall. I refused, they gave me the boot, and I drove myself for treatment with the blood still trickling onto my face. Six stitches, I think. Didn't try to sue because I'm not like that and I accepted responsibility for my actions, but I just felt there was some basic humanity lacking at that place.
 

Lars, the hole I see in your policy is that people can easily refuse to sign after the fact. I suppose that you still have some protection if you can get some witnesses to sign.

When we arrive on the scene, we introduce ourselves and ask if we can help.  If they say no(adults), we cannot help and leave.

In the first aid room, if they refuse, then we ask them to sign a refuse assistant waiver. 

If we really believe they need to be transported, we can call the police and have them arrest and transport them.

When Mr TC had a serious head blow a couple years ago, he did not recognize me(missed my chance to run ).  When he was in the ambulance he "came to" and had a fit because they were going to take him to the hospital.  Demanded that he be let out.

They let him out of the ambulance, but we also spent the next hour filling out "refusal of treatment waivers".

Do I think he made a wise choice?  No

Could I stop him? No

I highly doubt that if I felt lucid and didn't believe I was seriously hurt I would not go to the hospital even if the ski patrol suggested it.  If my wife or someone that knows me well said I was acting crazy I probably would refuse attention given the choice.  So, it is pretty easy for me to understand how this all went bad, very bad.  Fischer's right,  you can only make someone go to the hospital-with police- if they pose an apparent danger to themselves or others.

My father-in-law is a type 1 diabetic.  One night last month he was visiting and around 2am we heard him talking to people that weren't there.  We came out and he was completely altered, didn't know who we were, etc.  Suspecting a blood sugar crash we explained to him that he was a diabetic and needed medical attention.  I asked him if he knew where his blood sugar monitor was and he said "I don't know".  We started feeding him PBJs and fruit.  while looking for his monitor.  Then as he said "who are you" again to his daughter (my wife) I simply called 911 and they took it from there.  After a PBJ, orange, and glass of sugar water they took a glucose reading.  It was 38 so he got an IV.  It still wasn't easy for all of us to get him to consent to the IV and we almost had to have him take to the hospital by force.  He returned to earth about 15 minutes after they started the IV.

It is really sad that she died, the instructor and patrol staff must be devistated, but there probably really wasn't anything else they could have done.  I know I wouldn't go to the hospital myslef unless my head was pounding or I felt pretty dizzy.

Just a comment from my own experience: When you have just suffered a concussion, you may have never lost - or do not remember losing - consciousness, you may be full of so much adrenalin that you feel cognitively normal, even hyper aware and surprised you're "OK," and you may act perfectly normal. There does not need to be any head impact to cause a concussion. So you're probably more distracted by ancillary minor injuries like a pulled muscles or abrasions. At most, you may feel a bit mentally "odd," but since it doesn't seem to affect your motor performance or thought patterns, you attribute it to be "shaken up." You may not feel any headache, vision changes, nausea or other obvious symptoms for hours, and the underlying dangers, involving swelling or fluid build up, may not become patent for a day or more.  

I was listening to one report yesterday about how a hemorrhage inside the skull can do damage after the fact to the brain easily - so scary!  Neurologists refer to it as "talk and die" you appear fine you're walking around then suddenly it's over.  I guess there are tests like pupil dilation, nausea and headaches etc.  The blood presses on brain tissue and kills it or even pressures the back of the brain where your heart/breathing is and ... that's it you're done.

I'm not so sure it's cut and dried in all situations that if the person refuses treatment you should give up - as some have mentioned what if they aren't making sense or thinking clearly.  This has got to be one of the toughest judgments for ski patrol to make.

But of course this can happen as others mentioned in the car or shower or whatever.  But the average person hears skiing and they think Sonny Bono or whatever, and it is common and expected for everyone to fall especially beginner skiers.  So I hope this doesn't become yet another "I'll never ski look what happened to so-and-so Natasha Richardson" thing and discourage people.

I was so confused at Lake Placid that I refused to go to the hospital.  I was not capable of making a decision like that.  I went the next day and the doctor told me to quit taking aspirin and switch to Tylenol.

At Killington last month when I hit the tree, I didn't want to take the sled because of embarrassment.  But I was scared and that won out.  It was the right thing to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi 

 

That policy makes a lot more sense than the one at the water park in TX where I hit my head...they wouldn't treat me or get me help unless I signed some form that I couldn't even read because blood was running into my eyes. I could tell that it had nothing to do with accepting medical treatment, it seemed to be a blanket statement that the park had no liability for anything to do with my fall. I refused, they gave me the boot, and I drove myself for treatment with the blood still trickling onto my face. Six stitches, I think. Didn't try to sue because I'm not like that and I accepted responsibility for my actions, but I just felt there was some basic humanity lacking at that place.
 

 

Lars, the hole I see in your policy is that people can easily refuse to sign after the fact. I suppose that you still have some protection if you can get some witnesses to sign.

That's just stupid.  Even if you did sign, I doubt it would have been legally binding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crgildart 

 

I highly doubt that if I felt lucid and didn't believe I was seriously hurt I would not go to the hospital even if the ski patrol suggested it.  If my wife or someone that knows me well said I was acting crazy I probably would refuse attention given the choice.  So, it is pretty easy for me to understand how this all went bad, very bad.  Fischer's right,  you can only make someone go to the hospital-with police- if they pose an apparent danger to themselves or others.

 

My father-in-law is a type 1 diabetic.  One night last month he was visiting and around 2am we heard him talking to people that weren't there.  We came out and he was completely altered, didn't know who we were, etc.  Suspecting a blood sugar crash we explained to him that he was a diabetic and needed medical attention.  I asked him if he knew where his blood sugar monitor was and he said "I don't know".  We started feeding him PBJs and fruit.  while looking for his monitor.  Then as he said "who are you" again to his daughter (my wife) I simply called 911 and they took it from there.  After a PBJ, orange, and glass of sugar water they took a glucose reading.  It was 38 so he got an IV.  It still wasn't easy for all of us to get him to consent to the IV and we almost had to have him take to the hospital by force.  He returned to earth about 15 minutes after they started the IV.

 

It is really sad that she died, the instructor and patrol staff must be devistated, but there probably really wasn't anything else they could have done.  I know I wouldn't go to the hospital myslef unless my head was pounding or I felt pretty dizzy.

Diabetics are among the worst when their blood sugar drops -- we had one guy at work that would just start giggling and get real stubborn when we tried to help him.  It became a game of "just drink the Coke, Odis" with some cajoling and jokes to get him to drink it.  I've never seen someone so deliriously happy yet so close to danger at the same time.

> That's just stupid.  Even if you did sign, I doubt it would have been legally binding.

It may well be. I suspect that most of those "refuse assistance" waivers some people mention above are really "release area of liability" waivers.

Disney is particularly good at this type of thing. There was a big story about it in American Lawyer years ago. One of the favorite ploys is very quickly to offer an injured person something like a lifetime pass to Disneyland in exchange for a full waiver.

I wouldn't sign anything, myself.

I carry a tube of cake icing to give to a diabetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fischermh 

 

I carry a tube of cake icing to give to a diabetic.

 

 

Cake icing is good, about 90% powdered sugar.  The EMTs (one a diabetic herself) said that two tablespoons of Welch's Grape Jelly has as much glucose as the IV they gave him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjjohnston 

 

> That's just stupid.  Even if you did sign, I doubt it would have been legally binding.

 

It may well be. I suspect that most of those "refuse assistance" waivers some people mention above are really "release area of liability" waivers.

 

Disney is particularly good at this type of thing. There was a big story about it in American Lawyer years ago. One of the favorite ploys is very quickly to offer an injured person something like a lifetime pass to Disneyland in exchange for a full waiver.

 

I wouldn't sign anything, myself.

well, of course--all refuse service wavers are liability release wavers, by definition.

But I don't think you can actually refuse service if someone refuses to sign a waver, especially in an emergency situation. 

Clearly, in a full-on emergency situation, like if someone's got a severed artery or isn't breathing, refusing assistance (or, for that matter, signing or not signing anything) isn't an issue.

In a more typical case where someone might be refusing assistance and being asked to sign a waiver - say his knee hurts, he's limping some, but he can walk - if I were the injured guy, I'd just leave without signing the waiver.

This is a very sad story. Condolonces to her family.

It's terrible that she died while just starting to learn the sport that we love.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwiski 

 

www.sciam.com/article.cfm

 

This has me totally freaked out. I bumped my head getting into my car today. Am I going to die?

 

Should I wear a helmet at all times, not just skiing?

There's no reason to panic this was very rare.  If it didn't make instant national news you probably wouldn't even have paid it much attention.

From that article you linked to:
 

Quote by Keith Black, chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles.
 

"At Cedars–Sinai we treat hundreds of brain-injury patients, and it's very rare to see someone whose minor injury has become this life-threatening."

I mean really there's nothing you can do.  If it's your time it's your time. If you really want to do something work on balance training. Get life insurance. 

You could be afraid to walk down stairs all the time - that would be far more likely to hurt you since we do that all the time.  Walking on the street and slipping on ice - common injuries.  Standing on a chair or working on a crappy ladder - more dangerous.

It must have been obvious in the fall that she hit her head very hard so that the instructor called ski patrol.  The rest is just a thorough job to follow up.

As far as beginning skiers, I try to teach them to grab their knees if they go into panic mode or feel out of control. The standard response is to throw your arms up and lean back which just makes you go faster, have little steering control, and be much further from the ground.  If you grab you're knees you will at least have control over the tips of the skis and most importantly, you are closer to the ground so bailing out -falling to the side is not that bad. In that position also, the head is much closer to the ground.  It's difficult to override the instinctive mode though which most default to anyway so it takes practice.  A lot of people feel embarrased about doing it making it that much harder to convince them.

Far more common is secondary concussion syndrome in sports like high school football and college football and kids die. Basically, they go back to activities way too soon and get another concussion and have serious complications.  They've developed a test with questions that you ask the person over a series of time - days, weeks, to see if they still have lingering effects.  It's not an exact science though.

Or a congenital Cerebral Aneurysm or arterio-venous malformation rupture under relatively trivial

knock to the head.

First of all, my thoughts are with Ms. Richardson's family!

As I've been reading this I've been thinking more and more about injury avoidance.  Helmets are a good start, but they won't protect you all of the time, in every situation.
 

Tog's comment about balance training should be considered strongly by many as a way to actively avoid getting hurt. 

I'd go further to recommend that people consider some sort of martial arts training.  I've been doing Aikido for 10 years or so and really think that it's saved my ass a number of times, not by allowing me to defend myself, but by me knowing how to fall down without getting seriously hurt. The first thing you learn in Aikido and many other martial arts is how to fall down.  This enables you to train effectively without hurting yourself.  

I've fallen on icy/snowy sidewalks, or off of my bike/skis a number of times with nothing other than a bruise or scrape.  Took a nice forward fall at Snowbasin in February, did a full front roll and came up laughing and uninjured.  There's something to be said for falling down hundreds of times while training and then having to do it in "real life".  Muscle memory really does exist, I don't even think about how to fall anymore, I just do it.  I just wish I could get my skiing to the same level

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tog 

 

 

I mean really there's nothing you can do.  If it's your time it's your time. If you really want to do something work on balance training. Get life insurance. 

 

You could be afraid to walk down stairs all the time - that would be far more likely to hurt you since we do that all the time.  Walking on the street and slipping on ice - common injuries.  Standing on a chair or working on a crappy ladder - more dangerous.

 

Sad outcome, no doubt. Interesting how the posts developed as the injuries to her progressed. As a patroller, I can only imagine what is going through the patrollers who helped her. How would they feel if they did not do an initial assessment and let her go her own way?

My perspective:

MOI= fall, bonked your mellon

No helmet= potential injury from 'blunt force trauma'.

Helmet= potential injury from blunt force trauma POSSIBLY at least reduced or negated.

Nothing is absolute. I prefer to at least protect via the 'what if?' approach.

Just my two cents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeC 

 

Tog's comment about balance training should be considered strongly by many as a way to actively avoid getting hurt. 

 

I'd go further to recommend that people consider some sort of martial arts training.  I've been doing Aikido for 10 years or so and really think that it's saved my ass a number of times, not by allowing me to defend myself, but by me knowing how to fall down without getting seriously hurt. The first thing you learn in Aikido and many other martial arts is how to fall down.  This enables you to train effectively without hurting yourself.  

 

 

Ditto for me and Aikido. Think the various other arts/sports that emphasize leverage, body-in-space, and falls, including wrestling and gymnastics, are super training for the the rest of life. Especially if you're a klutz like me. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi 

 

That policy makes a lot more sense than the one at the water park in TX where I hit my head...they wouldn't treat me or get me help unless I signed some form that I couldn't even read because blood was running into my eyes. I could tell that it had nothing to do with accepting medical treatment, it seemed to be a blanket statement that the park had no liability for anything to do with my fall. I refused, they gave me the boot, and I drove myself for treatment with the blood still trickling onto my face. Six stitches, I think. Didn't try to sue because I'm not like that and I accepted responsibility for my actions, but I just felt there was some basic humanity lacking at that place.
 

 

I'm not a lawyer but I suspect that an instituion with pockets that refuses treatment  or assistance for some ulterior motive to someone they have good reason to beleive is injured would look like a holiday to an attorney. Imagine yourself in the jury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beyond 

 

 

Ditto for me and Aikido. Think the various other arts/sports that emphasize leverage, body-in-space, and falls, including wrestling and gymnastics, are super training for the the rest of life. Especially if you're a klutz like me. 

It's cool to hear there are other Aikidoka skiers around.  I need to get back into it after taking much of the last 3-4 years off because of my small kids.
 

Sorry to hear you are a Klutz!  My wife is in the same boat and I've been trying to get her into something that will help, but to no avail.  She doesn't like the "martial" part of martial arts and won't give it a go.

I totally agree that there are a number of other activities like gymnastics, etc. that will work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oisin 

 

 

I'm not a lawyer but I suspect that an instituion with pockets that refuses treatment  or assistance for some ulterior motive to someone they have good reason to beleive is injured would look like a holiday to an attorney. Imagine yourself in the jury.

This was in Texas, though, which is a very business-friendly, anti-litigation state.
 

I didn't go running for a lawyer because I knew that I had done something dumb...not overly or intentionally dangerous, but dumb in retrospect. Would have been nice if their safety rails had been padded instead of just bare metal, but they did keep me from plunging 30 feet or more.

Good point. I actually wrote a commentary on that subject. Keep in mind she was 45 years old. At that stage, she was probably begining to see the affects of compromised balance. With that in mind, I don't know why her instructor did not insist on her wearing a helmet. Once again, a helmet might or might not have lessened the severity, but why take the chance?

Any type of balance training, whether it fitness or martial arts based, is a good idea. Despite what instructors say about it being okay to fall, in many cases, it may not. Keep in mind that a 25 year old skier may experience less serious trauma from a fall than even an athletic 45 year old baby boomer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeC 

 

I'd go further to recommend that people consider some sort of martial arts training.  I've been doing Aikido for 10 years or so and really think that it's saved my ass a number of times, not by allowing me to defend myself, but by me knowing how to fall down without getting seriously hurt. The first thing you learn in Aikido and many other martial arts is how to fall down.  This enables you to train effectively without hurting yourself.  

 

I've fallen on icy/snowy sidewalks, or off of my bike/skis a number of times with nothing other than a bruise or scrape.  Took a nice forward fall at Snowbasin in February, did a full front roll and came up laughing and uninjured.  There's something to be said for falling down hundreds of times while training and then having to do it in "real life".  Muscle memory really does exist, I don't even think about how to fall anymore, I just do it.  I just wish I could get my skiing to the same level

 

That's a very good idea.

As for your skiing - maybe look at it as one continuous fall that you are managing.

We really have no idea what initiated her fall - was she even moving?

I would surmise that she had pretty good balance since she would have done a fair amount of dance training throughout her life.  I'd be surprised if she hadnt' spent significant time doing some sort of pilates/yoga excercise routine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisamarie 

 

 With that in mind, I don't know why her instructor did not insist on her wearing a helmet.

Our resort has many, many lawyers. According to them if you insist on a helmet it is like you are guaranteeing that it will protect the wearer and will actually open you to more liability. This is why we cannot insist on helmets even for kids.