or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › In response to OklahomaSkiBum and Bob Barnes
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

In response to OklahomaSkiBum and Bob Barnes

post #1 of 68
Thread Starter 
See this thread for history on this post..
http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000536 I'll go..

Bob Barnes suggested someone put up a "instruction request" so Oklahomaskibum could practice for his Level 3 Cert teaching section.
Please lets give Him a chance to do a lesson plan. This thread is not to do an MA for me..

Dear Mister Ski Instructor,

I have been skiing for quite a long time and now that I moved to more shaped skis from my "straight skis" I think I would like to make my transitions and turn initiation smoother and more efficient. I think I am still doing some of that "Down-Up-Down?"
Also I would like to get rid of some of that skidding at the end of the turn and make more "complete carves"

Help me please..



I plan to stay out of any dialog other than to respond to OKSkibums Questions on "feel, did you try? can you try?" The rest is up to the rest of the Instructors to help.. BTW I have had some lessons since this video to work on some of the things I asked so I probably have some feed back ready..
post #2 of 68
Thread Starter 
and by the way I did save all your posts on the other thread before I deleted it. Since I didn't get the question right last time and I had not seen if Oklahomaskibum had a chance to look I thought this would be the best way to give him a chance.
I'll repost the previous thread with responses after we give this a few days to play out. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #3 of 68
dchan, I am back. I tried to look at the video clip but I keep having the same problem. Whan I click on your link my media player comes up and shows skier on my play list but lists the clip time at o [img]redface.gif[/img]o and I can't get anything to play. I am not a computer wiz and am sure I an just missing something. Any suggestions?
post #4 of 68
Thread Starter 
you can check if you have the latest version of media player by clicking on help. Under help there should be a selection for "check for updates"
post #5 of 68
I played the avi. with no problem. Using Windows Media 7. You can play the avi. frame by frame to analyze the skiers movements. If you would like my opinion dchan send me a private message.
post #6 of 68
I am back and I have seen the clip, short but sweet.
1.the first thing that I would like to do is to find some terrain with a little pitch and that does not have much extra snow on it. (That is never a problem where I'm from!)

2.Next I'd like to do some side slipping with varied edge engagement facing both directions. I would give a demo then have you try it.

3.The third step that I would do is to link these side slips together with a piviot, (pivot slips)

4.As you are doing this I would guide you to while playing with different stance widths and trying to keep a stable upperbody facing towards the fall line.

5.Try to feel what parts of the body play a role in the initiation of the turn, and how the different levels of edge engagement effect this movement.

I'll stop here for the first part of my lesson and see what you are feeling. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #7 of 68
dchan- Can we pose questions re the lesson plan?
post #8 of 68
Thread Starter 
Rusty Guy
Please do.

I am only planning on responding to direct questions from OKskibum as to what I feel and I felt something different.

Answers to OK

1. unfortuantly today it has just snowed over night and where ever we go there are small mounds of soft stuff here and there on the groomed pack. We have to live with it..

2. Ok, we do some side slipping both directions and you find that I am quite adept at varied edge engagement and quite smooth at it as well.

3. You also find I can do pivot slips linked back and forth very easily.

4. Hmmm. I'm finding that as I ski in this stance I can't seem to get on my new outside ski's inside edge without doing a complete weight transfer and almost "stepping" on that ski. But when I make a wider stance I find myself getting upright "standing up" in order to initiate a turn. I can't seem to get the skis to come around as quickly. Am I not getting enough edge angle early. Now my turns are hooked or banana shaped. I'm feeling like the upper body facing down the hill is making me "have to steer harder" to turn my skis. Is this because I'm "wound up" like a spring and I am feeling the "unwinding effect"?. This feels more like trying to push my turns and set edges like on straight skis.

5. I'm finding that if I keep facing down the fall line I can get the skis to come around faster but I don't feel like I'm using the skis to turn but using more leverage to turn. This is getting more tiring. I thought skiing on new shaped skis and carving them would make skiing less effort.

How am I feeling? I think I feel some of the differences but I'm not sure how this is helping my skiing be more relaxed. It's almost more work.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 08, 2001 07:51 PM: Message edited 1 time, by dchan ]</font>
post #9 of 68
OKskibum, eplain some of the why's to your progressions to give us a better feel as to how you are thinking. What were you seeing in the clip. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 09, 2001 04:31 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Pierre eh! ]</font>
post #10 of 68
Give OKSB a chance to play out his progression and get dchan's responses before he has to start "defending" the progression.

Dchan, it's nice you don't have to ski ice, but OKSB has to teach and go through his exam where there is a lot of hard snow. There are times when it can actually be helpful for teaching things. :~)
post #11 of 68
I will start with a warning, I am a very kenesthetic learner, the video was good but you will find that I ask lots of questions when I read somthing and have to create my own image.

I saw you say two things that stood out to me. First you said that you had little trouble with linked pivot slips, but that when making turns you felt different things while playing with stance.(stepping foot to foot)

From here I would like to go back to pivot slips. I'd like to incoorperate several things that have been mentioned.

First lets do these in a lane 1.5 or 2 ski lengeths wide. keep the upper body facing down the fall line, and keep a tall but comfortable stance.

Something that you said made me question how you were doing the pivot slips.

I want you to do this without using a lot of edge engagement. You should feel almost as if you are on bearings, very little resistance between your skis and the snow.

In addition to these things be aware of two things with you upperbody.

1.Try to limit the up-down-up-down movments to a very limited amount.
2.Think of moving your CM more in the direction of travel (down the fall line).

One other note, you described the feeling of having to step from one foot to the other with the narrow stance, try to feel balanced between your feet. not all the weight on one or the other. You bought two skis you may as well use them both!

Play with these ideas and let me know what you are feeling. ask if any of the directions are unclear. As I said I have a hard time making an image in my head so I won't be offened if somthing I said was different from what you were meaning or if my thoughts don't flow for you.

Now a respone to the other post. In the video I saw some banking and a some-what narrow stance. I also saw some of the up-down-up moves that dchan spoke of. My thought is by using pivot slips we can address several issues. This is a good way to feel what happens with different stance widths, it will let the skier feel what happens with a stable uppperbody and limited up-down movement, and it will enhance the independent rotary movments of the lower body when done correctly.
post #12 of 68
Thread Starter 
No problem. I'm probably more a kenesthetic learner too. ask away. (keep in mind I am trying to make this as "real" as I can in regards to a class. I'm currently standing in the middle of the floor trying to feel what you are asking)

Ok, We go back to the pivot slips in a 1.5 ski length lane and I'm concentrating on keeping the upper body quiet, facing down the hill. I'm doing them with little edge engagement but you find I'm still moving up and down quite a bit. maybe I'm flexing my knees a little to control my edge engagement.

"I feel" like my CM is moving down the hill ok. but you notice the upper body is still moving up and down a little.
post #13 of 68
Thread Starter 
Keep in mind this is supposed to be a "simulation" so I'm assuming the weather may not cooperate with the exam date so I'm trying to keep OKSkibum on his toes.

I think we are supposed to be helping OK, (Tim) process and develop his lesson plan so I think questions regarding how he came to his conclusions makes sense to help him work out in his mind what he sees.
post #14 of 68
OKSB, I comprehend, now I can follow.
post #15 of 68

If I were your examiner, I would downgrade your presentation because you start every task with, "I want you to..." Many people do not like to be told, "I want you to.." This is one of the problems with Command Style teaching. Command Style can be used, but be careful not to make it a "command." A more palatable way would be "If you would like to..." Or, " Let's explore..."

Also, you have determined his needs and expectations before the lesson started. Have you verified that those needs and motivations are being met? Or changed?

We, as instructors, should not have an agenda before we start a lesson. We understand that there is a progression for the level of skiers that we about to teach. But the student came into the lesson with expectations of an outcome. The only way to know if you are meeting those expectations, is ask frequently during the course of the lesson. Remember, it is the student who is paying the bill. We need to make the lesson experience be satisfying to the student by meeting those expectations.

Another point, The student doesn't seem to understand portions of the task. Too many things at one time? I would suggest reducing the tasks to one small, basic, task and starting from there. The smallest that I hear you saying is sideslip. Get the PROPER sideslip mastered before moving on. I see you giving too many tasks before the basic one is mastered.

Remember this teaching/learning concept: you must address the affective(motivations, need and expectations), cognitive (understanding), Psycho-motor (movement), moral and social channels of the student. The social and moral issues are not a real problem as we usually adreess those be the content of the lesson. But the first three must addressed in each lesson if the lesson is to be successful.

post #16 of 68
At this point Dchan goes to the ski school desk and demands a refund.
post #17 of 68

What's the worst thing you can buy from a ski area?

A ski lesson!
post #18 of 68
Ouch, you guys are rough.

An online discussion of a ski lesson is wholly different than one on the snow, so why don't you guys stay outta this and see how it plays out.

I for one am interested to see it develop and see how some concise, constructive criticism can play a role.

RickH. If you think OKSkibum's feedback is 'too much at once' then the same can be said of your analysis of what he has done so far.

This thread is 'addressed' to some specific people. Let's let them do their thing!! : :

edit 1:for spelling only

edit 2: Answer this(my)post

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ October 09, 2001 12:57 PM: Message edited 2 times, by Roto ]</font>
post #19 of 68
Okay, Roto. I'm on the sidelines with Cheap Seats.

MilesB is in Canoga Park, trying out for his next movie.

post #20 of 68
Thank you ROTO
To answer some of the critics I do feel that If this was a real lesson and I was woring in person with dchan My presentation would be different in many ways two of which would be the presentation style( command, task, guided, ect..) second I wouold not try to condense this as much as I have. I understand the idea of not going to sensory overload within 30 seconds but for the sake of my fingers, my time and your eyes I have tried to keep the posts to a min and my explinations condensed. I hope that this is ok and that I can still get some feedback on the content of my plans.
The last thing that would be different is that while talking with dchan I would not make as many spelling and grammer mistakes!
Thanks for your patience
Now I will attempt to go back to dchan's response and give my next post.
post #21 of 68
I am glad I'm not the only one who thinks there is snow on their living room floor.

I have now moved to the next level of wishfull thinking.

To get a better feel of the movement of your CM down the hill without the up-down moves try standing sidways on two steps. one foot on one step and the other foot on the step below it. When I do this I stand with my feet on the steps but very close to the edge. My weight is distributed evenly between my feet and I have my upperbody in a countered relationship with my lowerbody facing the bottom of the slope, I mean stairs.

This position results in my hips being centered between a comfortably wide stance. If you can feel this then lets proceed, if not stop reading and respond.

I will proceed to the next step of this assuming that this was clear.

To keep everone happy here I would like to say, lets explore the next step if you would so care.

Now that you are in this position try to extend your uphill leg without first making any extra moves to stay in a balanced position on the steps.

When I do this I feel my CM move across my downhill leg and towards the bottom of the stairs then I feel my shoulder slam into the floor because I got so wrapped up in this that I forgot I was in my living room.

This move of my CM happens as the uphill leg extends and the downhill leg does not give resistance. If you would like to explore this more try it facing both directions on the stairs.

If you can feel this than take this extention and resulting crossover of your CM move into the pivot slips and again try to link them together. What do you feel? Is there still as much of an up-down or has this been toned down?

For me, if I were to take this move to the snow and combine it with the limited edge that we had earlier discussed, I feel the sensation of being on bearings that I refered to earlier. This lets my skis enter the fall line and through the use of rotary skills in the lower body I will steer them past the fall line and across the hill to the other side, once there I will slip down the fall line and repeat in the reverse direction. Do you feel like this works for you.

Another thought, this one about the engagement of your edges. can this engagement as limited or exagerated as it may be, be acomplished through use of the ankle in conjunction with the knee or by the ankle alone or does it need to result from a movment of the knee. I feel myself letting the ankle play a role in the edgeing that I do. What do you feel?

Sorry if this is too much info to process, but as I only get on the web at certain times I try to take advantage of the time that I get.
post #22 of 68
Thread Starter 
I am going to sit tight and let some of the instructors jump in here and let's see what they think so far. I'll play your ideas over in my mind and see where they guide me.

Ok all you Level 3's and examiners, it's in your court [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #23 of 68
I like pivot slips as a way of accomplishing what OKSB is trying to do. Another approach would be something like the Phantom move. We have never tried to give a lesson on line before and its a bit more cumbersome than responding to someones possible miss-understanding.
The real thing that I saw in dechans clip was the overflexing in the boots. That skier has a lot of ankle range of motion and would benefit from a stiffer boot or changes in the present boots like adding some to the front of the cuff or putting the power strap insided the cuff. Most of the problems appear to be caused by hunting for the front of the boots. This of course is not what they are looking for in an exam. They are looking for the correct movement analysis and a logical anatomically correct way of addressing the problem is progressive steps.
post #24 of 68
dchan- Is there any way to paste my old m.a. in here? It would help me a great deal to have a few of the level III's and/or examiners take pot shots at what I saw.

post #25 of 68
Rusty and I have had our disagreements and we always seemed to recover.

But now, I find out he's a friggin Duke basketball fan!

I don't know if I can get over this one.
post #26 of 68
dchan and Tim this is great. No easy task to give or take a lesson with only words that are typed when dealing with a movement sport you are both to be comended.

Tim; I think you have made some observations of stance and up and down movements from the waist and ankle flex that are right on. The use of pivot slips to address these issues is also a could be good be a selection. (on snow you would know if you were on the right track if you were getting the changes dchan and you wanted) One area I would have liked to see you address is right off the bat find out what dchan feels in his skiing in different conditions and where he wants to take his skiing? also what type and length of ski is he on? as well as what type of boot and if he has had any alignment done or have custom orthotics? (if you did this already sorry)

Question for Dchan: What area of your body to you feel bends the most when you ski? ankle, knee, spine, waist?

Tim: Provided you have got some of the results you wanted like a taller and slightly wider stance as well as more upper and lower body seperation going with your student, where are you going next?

I will weigh in on some MA that has already been mentioned: I agree with Perrie eh in that in the turns on the video the ankle seems to be over flexed or a slightly levered against the front of the boot. This causes you to flex at the knee to balance this out which in turn puts your hips back. With the hips back and the knee flexing towards the tail of the ski at turn completion it causes the tail to break away from to much pressure resulting in the tail NOT following the tip through out the turn and the skid you see with snow being sent down the hill(below you).

As for the tipping people have mentioned I would concur that the shoulders do slightly tip into the hill that compounds the tail skid. This is were I think Tim address your stance may help to elevate this because it is not a gross move on your part. Some of the cause of the tipping in my opinion is the tendancy to drop the inside hand and not keep the inside half ahead by keeping some tension in you mid section.

Although I do have some further thoughts on what we could do to accomplish some changes I will head back to the sidelines to see how things go and will be interested in other thoughts. Thank you both!!! todo
post #27 of 68
Thread Starter 
I'm a little confused. Earlier you were having me try to stay square to the fall line. now with the CM exercise are we no longer doing this? :
post #28 of 68
Thanks for waiting on me, as we go to the exercise for the CM I still want to include the body position that you would ski with. To me this means that your upperbody will still be focused down the fall line and staying quite. does this sound good to you?

When you do this try two feel some different parts of your body, this may mean doing this movement several times.

I focus on three major areas, My shoulder and chest area, my hips and abdominals, and my ankle and knee joints, what do you feel happening with these or other areas?

post #29 of 68
Thread Starter 
Lets say I'm standing with my skis facing arcoss the hill. I am looking down the fall line, my skis are pointed to the right. skis apart about shoulder width, so the right leg is slightly shorter than the left, standing fairly tall. I as I extend my right leg moving into the turn I find my cm moves across the skis and down the fall line but right knee bumps into my left leg and begins to push it to the left. The left ski tracks straight into my right ski until they make contact or my right leg pushing the left leg over starts to cause the left ski to edge. Then they both begin to turn together. I try this both directions with the same result. If I begin to forcefully steer the inside ski I can keep this from happening. So it seems the cm is moving across the hill nicer with not so much up and down but what am I missing? :
post #30 of 68
At this point OK says " Actually, there isn't THAT much up and down. How about we ski that powder over there....."
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › In response to OklahomaSkiBum and Bob Barnes