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Note/rant - Page 6

post #151 of 207
Originally posted by Lbrother1:
City skier! Do you have the $1,000 outfit to go along with your elegant skiing? Do the colors of your outfit match your skis? Come on! Get with the times. This is 2002 not 1970. If you want to look pretty maybe you should join ballet.
Y'know, not to criticise, but I would LIKE a $1000 outfit to go along with my elegant skiing. Maybe if more people buy them the cheap imitations will get more like the real thing! (which would be a good precedent...)
post #152 of 207
Originally posted by SCSA:
Can you provide me with a "must have" reason to take a ski lesson?
Because Harald says so.

I know some people who use that as the basis for their arguments, nae, even their whole life.


[ April 30, 2002, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Wear the fox hat ? ]
post #153 of 207
Originally posted by weems:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lisamarie:

Perhaps, the purists of the odler style of skiing thought shaped skis were also some sort of heresy.
Shaped skis--and all the fat forms of them--are the purist expression of the purists. They finally let us do what we've been trying to do for decades. More importantly, they finally let YOU do what we've known was out there for everybody for decades.</font>[/quote]You know that, we know that, but were they met with open arms, or open stance, initially? Just about every new idea has its "nay sayers".
post #154 of 207
Right you are, Lisa.

Until Bode waxed the competition at the Junior Olympics on a pair of K2 Fours, the racing community rejected short shapes. I know: I was wearing Fours that year and coaching and getting a lot of static. Now I say, "I told you so."

Even today, six or seven years later, there are still die-hards on long straight skis, stretch pants, and feet glued together. They nurse their resistance to the new with messianic fervor.

That's why resorts need to work with manufacturers to offer complimentary demos, so the Luddites can drop the scales from their eyes and amp more fun into their skiing. I have NEVER met a dyed-in-the-wool straight ski person who tried an appropriate model of shape ski who didn't buy (eventually). And these folks start out quite adamant!

Coke and Pepsi do taste comparisons, why not Rossi and K2?
post #155 of 207
To me elegant skiing is effortless skiing, and I think Ott is saying the same thing here. However when comparing styles one must remember that “beauty truly lies in the eyes of the beholder”. SCSA you used the analogy of the Ford Taurus, I was pleased you used this example, as it illustrates perfectly what I am referring to. It was an absolute dog outside the USA; it was considered absolutely pig ugly (and has my vote on that!), and simply didn’t sell.

Lisa, you say women are working out more and more and looking better. Where do you get that information? I have seen nothing to disrupt the trend that the population in general is getting fatter. SCSA, the reason many women don’t wear the style of clothing you like (we like) so much is due to the size of their ass! The reality is that people ARE getting fatter. Would you take up a sport, knowing you were carrying excess weight, that required you to squeeze into something “inappropriate”? Stretch pants look great if you’ve got the body (I just got back from Germany this morning and would include leather pants in that category … is there anything better than leather mumble pants!!), but look absolutely terrible if you’re fat. As you say, women like to look good … and feel like they’re looking good. Take women’s sizing for example, the labelling is continuing to move down in size. Women like to say, “Oh I take a size 10” because it sounds good and makes them feel good. The reality that 15 years ago it was a size 18 or even larger seems to be lost somewhere.
post #156 of 207
Thread Starter 
Your Highness,

With all due respect, you're not even close to a must have.

#1 is a "not very good".

The rest, well, you're not going to sell very many lessons built around that message.

weems is the closest.

Here's my conclusion.
If you guys really want to see this product be successful and I think it can be wildly successful, you need to go back to the drawing board.

Have a great summer.
post #157 of 207
How like you to prefer the push over the pull, SCSA.

Spring only just arrived. I think I'll take special delight in it. I think summer's going to be a long burn.

Actually, I think Dr. Seuss has the key reason for opening yourself to a few lessons: "Oh the places you'll go!"
post #158 of 207

Right on about the size of the American ass! I would go a tad further and say that this width crosses genders. In fact, there's a definite androgenous look to the obese. I believe fat cells exude estrogen.

Still, we could ask L.M. Boyd to rerun that bit about the Canadian Air Force study that found obese people can lose up to one pound every two hours in sub-freezing temps.

I believe change is possible!

As the female lead in the sit-com said about a winter weight gain, "Put on a sweater. It's easier to take off."
post #159 of 207
Actually, Pete has pointed out what an insulated world I live in. Going in and out of fitness centers all day gives me a highly warped perception of reality. Every once in awhile, the fitness industry holds its conventions in Disney or Vegas. All of us than get hit with the schocking reality, when we get a look at the rest of the American population.

My point on the shape ski thing, was that {at least for me} its really hard to do a bootlocked stance with the shapes.

Everybody here has heard my Bormio story a gazillion times, but every instructor there was in shaped skis and rear entry boots. I found it impossible in my Volkls to ski with locked n\boots, or perform moves such as the reverse shoulder, or that push the heels down the hill thing.
post #160 of 207
LM, FYI, everything possible on straight skis can be done on shaped skis. With locked boot stance you may get a nipping of the ski shovels when you change edges because they are wide, but heel push and such can be done as easily on shapes. Reverse shoulder has nothing to do with ski shapes.

post #161 of 207
LM - you should have a conference in Des Moines if you want a dose of reality.
post #162 of 207
Originally posted by Ott Gangl:
LM, FYI, everything possible on straight skis can be done on shaped skis. With locked boot stance you may get a nipping of the ski shovels when you change edges because they are wide, but heel push and such can be done as easily on shapes. Reverse shoulder has nothing to do with ski shapes.

Note that I said "at least for me", who was not born with a silver ski pole in her hand like some of the "naturals" around here.
post #163 of 207
Nolo, I should add that the problem of obesity is not restricted to the USA, although you guys have a fair lead on the rest of the world (I have heard #2 is Australia, and catching up fast). Nor is it a female thing, in that regard I was merely countering SCSA’s argument about women wanting to wear figure revealing clothes.

We are all familiar with food so it perhaps makes a good example of marketing (stay with me on this one). If asked what we want in a meal I guess most would say something nutritious, enough to be “satt”, served in pleasant surroundings. Yet compare this with reality. I have a lot of trouble finding “fast food” there which has even slight nutritional value (thank goodness for subway, even if the bread does taste like crap … if Ott is from Europe he’ll be hearing me on the bread issue), the serves are often absurdly large (post-mix cups are more like small buckets. More is better right?), and the surroundings … oh let’s not go there! Yet we all keep going back. Why is it so? Step back and try to see it from an external perspective. Once we understand what the answer is to that question, marketing skiing becomes very much easier.

Personally I think the ski scene if very exciting at the moment. After many years of little change in ski design we are seeing quite a revolution by way of short, shaped skis, not to mention all sorts of “snow toys” being promoted. Boot and binding technology has basically been perfected. Grooming is very, very good, with high speed chairs the norm at most mountains. There are now terrain parks and groomed half pipes at most resorts. But what I find most exciting is the move back from snowboarding to skiing. What was once considered radical in the pipe on a board is very ho-hum on skis, people are realising that just so much more is possible on skis compared to a board. People took up boarding because it was easier to learn than skiing (at least at a never-ever level) and they could perform the same tricks in the pipe (and why were half pipes developed) as they could on their skateboards. Most of all, boarding was “cool”. With new skis this equation has all changed, new school is now “the scene”. Now you guys have to go out and let people know about it!

SCSA as a matter of interest, how much time do you spend in the pipe? What sort of tricks do you pull? What sort of air do you routinely get when jumping? How about rail grinds? Not picking on you in particular, but look where the young people (read the future) are. Look where the snowboarding instructors are during their time off. Consider again why people aren’t taking lessons.


post #164 of 207
Originally posted by skis&snow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lbrother1:
City skier! Do you have the $1,000 outfit to go along with your elegant skiing? Do the colors of your outfit match your skis? Come on! Get with the times. This is 2002 not 1970. If you want to look pretty maybe you should join ballet.
Y'know, not to criticise, but I would LIKE a $1000 outfit to go along with my elegant skiing. Maybe if more people buy them the cheap imitations will get more like the real thing! (which would be a good precedent...)</font>[/quote]"If I had a million dollars
I'd buy you a ski suit
{not a green ski suit that's cruel}
If I had a million dollars.....
{someone write another verse}........" [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #165 of 207
I believe fat cells exude estrogen.
They don't.

there's a definite androgenous look to the obese.
Excess estrogen will enhance/result in effeminancy.
post #166 of 207

I believe we go back for more fast food for two reasons: it's fast and it's consistent. Notice I didn't say good. The known quantity is of value to risk-averse American consumers.

You are so right about the bread at Subway, and I might add Quizno's as another sandwich specialty shop whose bread is atrocious.

For some reason, that prompts me to mention the report that an Australian ski resort plans to make snow using treated sewage.

I say, what's the world coming to?


Fat people produce more estrogen than skinny people. That goes for males too. Estrogen inhibits hair growth and promotes tumor growth. You are right: the better word is effeminate.

Male breast cancers (rare) are on the rise.
post #167 of 207
Originally posted by gonzostrike:
fashion, shmashion...

skiing isn't about fashion. those that think it is, are the ones responsible for making it too expensive for the purist to afford unless the purist wants to dirtbag his/her way through the season
Nice Strike …. Strike.

Originally posted by SCSA:
I'll tell you something else.

I bought an exercise ball. In the instructions, it specifically states that I, "...should consult with a personal trainer", which I did. I actually hired a personal trainer for an hour to show me how to use the ball correctly. The ball came with instructions and pictures - 25 or so exercises.

But how come when I go buy a pair of shaped skis, for $500, infinitely more dangerous than the ball, there's nothing that instructs me to, "...consult with a ski instructor"? And, no instructions, no pictures, nothing.
SCSA ya not missing anything you are right on top of the ball game. (just leave out the HH\PSIA bits a little will ya) IMHO This is the best example you have ever given for what is wrong with the Ski Business. The marketing of SKI INSTRUCTION is abysmal. SS has become a neglected extension of “corporate cult” (packaged fashion) and so become a self-isolating media. FASHION and SKI INSTRUCTION require a strong INDIVIDUAL and CONTINUALLY EVOLVING marketing program to prosper. SKI INSTRUCTION marketing is currently a dead horse without a stable and a feed lot to nurture it. The poor underfeed horse of the “resort experience”.

So what is FASHIONABLE SKI INSTRUCTION ???? How do we make FSI the catch phrase and reinvigorate the market. How do we make people want to belong\need SKI INSTRUCTION just like they want to belong\need FASHION for personal identity. The skis\boards are fashionable, the gloves, poles, helmets, boots, cars, hotels, restaruants etc etc are FASHIONABLE (something for all ages and budgets) why not SKI INSTRUCTION.


P.S. The surfs been excellent these last weeks.
post #168 of 207
Nolo, if they make snow from treated sewage it only goes to prove that the snow in Oz is S#!T.

I haven’t had the gastronomical pleasure of dining at “Quiznos” as yet, but would consider any food outlet who’s name sounds like some sort mystery board game or a outrageous game show, would be highly dubious in my eyes. Thanks for the heads up, I shall make the appropriate detour.

Yeah fast food is … well, fast. And it sure is consistent I’ll give you that. The one thing it isn’t is nutritious, so why are we eating it in the first place? Another piece of the marketing puzzle is in the answer. Here’s a hint, “traditional” skiing is the nutritious meal that we probably should be eating, that’s not what kids want to eat. You’ll find them down at Burger King!


post #169 of 207
Yes, resorts generate great quantities of sewage at the headwaters of the mountain streams that feed our urban waterworks. This is problematic. Yellowstone Club's Tim Blixseth finessed a nasty altercation with the DEQ by proposing to water its golf course with its effluents. One can only imagine the monster grass it will grow.
post #170 of 207
Better not mention "monster grass" there are snowboarders lurking here
post #171 of 207
Having been in the corporate fast-food business for many years, I can tell you that a lot of research dollars have gone into knowing exactly what drives sales.............and it sure isn't food quality or nutrition. Most people go for fast food because it is (1) convenient -- get it quick, in my car, with minimal wait, bundled with fries and drink (no decisions required). (2) cheap -- half or less the cost of a "real" meal.
(3) Consistent -- no surprises, even if it's bad food, you know exactly what you are going to get.
This also extends to the people and premisis. Clean, friendly, etc.

The industry has tried going the nutrition route many times. It doesn't work. People talk bean sprouts, but eat twinkies. Same goes for food quality (which is a finer line). The minute food gets too good (aka costly), people stop buying.
post #172 of 207

People talk nutrition but buy empty calories.

There's a deep lesson in there somewhere.

That's what I mean by enigmatic. You are an enigmatic Idaho spudhuckster in full.

(I have a mountain bike, a set of clubs, a few nags, lots of scenery to poke around in, and a view that doesn't quit.)
post #173 of 207
Ahhhh. Carl's Jr. Six Dollar Burger. Ahhhhh. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #174 of 207
"and a view that doesn't quit"! Now, that's "marketing" that I can almost taste. And also the kind of "sizzle" that seems to be missing from our approach to selling ski lessons -- my opinion (even if it is from an "enigmatic spudhuckster............and, by the way, I've been called worse!)
post #175 of 207
Hey buddy that was a compliment!

Took me a few secs to think it up, y'know.
post #176 of 207
Hope you guys aren't taking the food analogy too literally instead of relating this back to ski marketing.
post #177 of 207
Fat people produce more estrogen than skinny people. That goes for males too.
That's an interesting point you bring up, Nolo.

Although estrogen certainly impinges upon brain circuitry involved in feeding behavior and metabolism, it is not clear how estrogen modulates these neuronal pathways.

There are seemingly a bazillion hormones/factors involved in regulating feeding and body weight, and that's just in rodents. Estrogen may be an important member of this group, but since feeding and weight gain are context specific, its role is most likely limited.

Estrogen is elevated in many obese patients, but is estrogen an obligate player driving the obesity or is it secondary? Other studies, in contrast, demonstrated that estrogen deficiency results in an obesity syndrome, suggesting that the hormone functions to down regulate body weight.
post #178 of 207

You appear to have a great deal more knowledge of biochemistry than I do. I point out the correlation between obesity and elevated estrogen, and that elevated estrogen has been shown to be a tumor growth enhancer, which is why obesity is a risk factor in breast and other cancers.

I apologize if I implied that estrogen causes people to be obese.

It does seem that this thread is hopelessly tangled up in trying to find a direction.
post #179 of 207
Can you tell me why in England, Holland etc. MacDonalds is like the same in the USA, however, in France they are different. There is a much greater range, more salads, & they serve beer! Why is that?

Ski instruction is also different in France, & to some extent in Italy, groups of adults will hire instructors, not for instruction per se, but to be guided round the mountain, to the best snow, to follow the sun, not to have to pick a route, & to be taken to mountain resturants with charm. To skip past lift queues, and if the odd tip is thrown in, so much the better.
Have you considered what you offer experienced adult skiers, is it something they would relish?
I understand your resorts might not run to 190 lifts & 700 kilometers of runs, but would it be marketable for you to offer something of that kind, or do you already?
post #180 of 207
Hi Ice!

It's what the company (the clown's outfit) calls "loose/tight". Individual zones/markets are free to do (as an add-on)whatever fits best in their area/culture (loose part); but must adhere to the same "core" menu, operations, equipment, suppliers, etc. that the big company dictates (tight part). As a result, you will find rice bowls on the menu in Indonesia, Corn Soup in Japan, Jalapeno peppers on the condiment table in Salinas and beer in the shake cups in
Munich, but you will also find a Big Mac, Fries and Coke on all those menus, too.
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