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Skis always on snow in moguls - is this the right advice?

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

The reason I ask is that it seems to me that getting a little air (or at least un-weighting) just after your highest absorption is a good thing, because it allows you to more easily get the front of your skis quickly on the snow going down the back side / downhill side of the bump.

Should the advice be more like: "keep the front of your skis on the snow as much as possible, even if it means taking a little air at the top of the bump to be able to kick your heels in the air and get the front of your skis on the down side of the bump" (appreciate that not everyone will necessarily hit the top of the bump).

 

post #2 of 17

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazza View Post

 

The reason I ask is that it seems to me that getting a little air (or at least un-weighting) just after your highest absorption is a good thing, because it allows you to more easily get the front of your skis quickly on the snow going down the back side / downhill side of the bump.

Should the advice be more like: "keep the front of your skis on the snow as much as possible, even if it means taking a little air at the top of the bump to be able to kick your heels in the air and get the front of your skis on the down side of the bump" (appreciate that not everyone will necessarily hit the top of the bump).

 

 

sometime 'air' is something that is going to happen, but doesnt ahve to be a goal.

 

 

post #3 of 17

There are no rule for bump skiing as long as you are of no danger to eather yourself or others. The only exception would be if you took part in  a bump skiing competition. There they have rules. In the rockin free world there are no absolute rules.

post #4 of 17

The less contact you have with the snow, the faster you will go (at least in the bumps).  If you are trying to increase your speed, then more air is a good thing.  However, the faster you go, the more active you will need to be.  At high speeds, you have to forcefully and very quickly extend so you don't miss the next bump. 

 

If you are trying to control speed, then aggressively driving the tips down into the trough after absorbing the bump will maintain snow contact and help keep your speed down. 

 

What you do not want to do is up-unweight off the top of the bump.  The goal is to use absortion and extension to keep your CM in the same vertical plane.  You you should be extending to maintain (or restore) snow contact, not to project your CM upward to help you turn.  Doing the latter will just make the ride rough and challenge your ability to remain in control.  As you absorb, your ski should be only partially on the bump and as you crest, the bump acts as a fullcrum (since only the middle of the ski actually has snow contact).  You should have some anticipation as you absorb (meaning your torso is still facing down the hill while your legs are facing the direction of the last turn).  As you crest the bump, this anticipation combined with a blocking pole plant that you made during absorbtion will naturally cause your body to unwind and bring your skis around.  This will all happen more or less automatically as you extend (or it will occur in the air if you delay your extension).

post #5 of 17

I'd say skis stay on the snow.  Look at the WC bumpers,  That's why so many talk about pushing the tips down the backs, to keep in contact with the snow.  Skis on snow is correct, but have some fun and do what you want.

 

IMHO

post #6 of 17

Through effective absorption (or retraction) and extension, you can keep your skis in near-constant contact with the snow, which really helps control speed.  But I think it's OK (and fun) to get a hop out of it once and a while if you're balanced and can drive your tips back down going into the next turn.  If you're in the backseat, it can be a bad thing and gradually lead to a loss of control.

post #7 of 17

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

 

The less contact you have with the snow, the faster you will go (at least in the bumps).  If you are trying to increase your speed, then more air is a good thing.  However, the faster you go, the more active you will need to be.  At high speeds, you have to forcefully and very quickly extend so you don't miss the next bump. 

 

If you are trying to control speed, then aggressively driving the tips down into the trough after absorbing the bump will maintain snow contact and help keep your speed down. 

 

What you do not want to do is up-unweight off the top of the bump.  The goal is to use absortion and extension to keep your CM in the same vertical plane.  You you should be extending to maintain (or restore) snow contact, not to project your CM upward to help you turn.  Doing the latter will just make the ride rough and challenge your ability to remain in control.  As you absorb, your ski should be only partially on the bump and as you crest, the bump acts as a fullcrum (since only the middle of the ski actually has snow contact).  You should have some anticipation as you absorb (meaning your torso is still facing down the hill while your legs are facing the direction of the last turn).  As you crest the bump, this anticipation combined with a blocking pole plant that you made during absorbtion will naturally cause your body to unwind and bring your skis around.  This will all happen more or less automatically as you extend (or it will occur in the air if you delay your extension).

 

True until you start straight lining mogul fields.

post #8 of 17

Never say always. Never say never.

 

 

?????

 

 

Sometimes getting air in the bumps is fun.

 

If you watch the bump competitions, you'll often see skiers that look like they have vacuum suction between their skis and the snow. There's a reason for this, but you don't have to ski that way.

post #9 of 17

If you want to go fast keep your skis on the snow. Jumping up in the air will make you slower. But why would you want to go fast in the bumps? That is hardly the intent for anyone except FIS racers. And even they try to ski as controlled as possible.

post #10 of 17

 

from:    http://www.mogullogic.com/Finnish.html


 

FINLAND FREESTYLE SKI TEAM TRAINING REGIMEN

By Mikko Ronkianen

Training:

  • At least 200 days a year on snow.
  • Training in the morning and afternoon, two hours each.
  • In the evening, a short game and stretching.

Training on the hill -- Successful Finnish technique:

 

[bold added]

 

Team Finland skis flats more than you can imagine, because it is easier to concentrate and learn to ski without bumps. The similarities in the technique of Finnish skiers comes pretty much from flat skiing.

  • Basic skiing body position
  • Turning smoothly by using knee angles the get skis on their edges, low basic skiing position
  • Upper body relaxed and still
  • Vision up
  • Pole plants by using wrists
  • After that, do the same things in moguls with absorption
  • For keeping snow contact we are pushing the whole ski straight down in the backsides of the bumps instead of pushing ski tips down
  • When learning something new, ski moguls in short sections and focus on one thing at a time
  • We are used to skiing icy moguls because of the northern weather conditions, after that a soft mogul course is fun and easy to ski

Just so you know the guy can ski bumps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvHV36K7IGs&feature=related

 

post #11 of 17
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 

If you want to go fast keep your skis on the snow. Jumping up in the air will make you slower. But why would you want to go fast in the bumps? That is hardly the intent for anyone except FIS racers. And even they try to ski as controlled as possible.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post

 

The less contact you have with the snow, the faster you will go (at least in the bumps).  If you are trying to increase your speed, then more air is a good thing.  However, the faster you go, the more active you will need to be.  At high speeds, you have to forcefully and very quickly extend so you don't miss the next bump. 

 

If you are trying to control speed, then aggressively driving the tips down into the trough after absorbing the bump will maintain snow contact and help keep your speed down. 

 

 

These seem to contradict each other? I always thought less contact with snow slows you down?

post #12 of 17


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazza View Post

 

 

 

These seem to contradict each other? I always thought less contact with snow slows you down?

Not really, if we're talking two different situations.
 

In one case, where we're talking about slight air between bumps, more contact with the snow means your extending and absorbing as much as possible, slowing you down.

 

In another case, where you jump, you're transferring some of your forward, downhill momentum into a little upward trajectory in a jump, slowing you down a bit.

There's an old saying among bumpers, when in doubt, air it out.

post #13 of 17

I ski a lot of bumps, but not zipper line technique like the pros.  My experience is that if the tips of your skis are not in contact with the snow you are most likely accelerating at that moment, and not in control of the direction you are going, unless you are skidding your tails, which doesn't really work too well in the bumps (or anywhere else for long).  Various bump shapes require differing techniques, but if your basic bumps form does not involve your tips in contact with the snow most of the time you are going to be seriously wearing yourself out, or skidding down the hill.

 

In answer to the original question, IMO yes, it's good advice.

post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 

thanks everyone - I'm a bit of a 3-D learner, in that I like to turn things around and get different angles. All the feedback here is really helpful and much appreciated.

post #15 of 17


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazza View Post

 

thanks everyone - I'm a bit of a 3-D learner, in that I like to turn things around and get different angles. All the feedback here is really helpful and much appreciated.

I think 'skis always on snow' is an ideal. If we aim for it, we reach a level where we experience a lot of up-unweighting, which makes steering the skis easy, and some air, which makes changing the direction of the skis very very easy; but I don't know if any of us on this list can truly hope to achieve it. We get better the closer we get to the ideal.
 

 

Off topic: I remember the first time I came upon a badly injured skier on an empty trail, skiing at night (at Mountain Crap, NJ).

I wanted to get to the bottom to call the patrol 'immediately'. So I raced down, and the ideal of being down immediately, and forgetting any self-consciousness, got me down faster than I'd ever gone before.

I flew over the icy spots where I had feared falling; raced through the section under the chair where I was previously worried about looking bad, and got down fast.

 

A few years ago I realized that I'd had some serious injuries skiing, but only when I fell. I was never injured without falling, so I established 'never falling' as an ideal for myself, and kept to that for several seasons. Pursuing that ideal kept me upright.

Of course, this season I loosened up, bought twin tips, started jibbing, skied 32 days, and was hit by snowboarders twice. I did fall. Really fell. Seriously majorly fell, a few times.

post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 

 

I think this is the kind of thing I was thinking when I started this thread. Does this only apply to small bumps? Is it also a case of taking the frequent advice here that there is always more than one technique to achieve what you want to?

post #17 of 17


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 

 

  • For keeping snow contact we are pushing the whole ski straight down in the backsides of the bumps instead of pushing ski tips down 

 

Agreed, however, doesn't it start with the front of the ski.  And don't most new bumpers leave skis way off the snow coming down the back of the bump.  How does doris flexion and body alignment fit into their way of skiing vs a recreational - but serious bump skier.
 

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