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Cross-under move

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

 Just a question about the cross-under move: I am coming out of the old turn, edge angles identical, inside leg bent, outside leg straight, somewhat countered.  At this point, to initiate a cross-under, what do I do?

 

1) pull both feed back simultaneously

2) flex the ankles

3) relax the legs and unweight the skis

4) allow hips to roll across the skis

5) when hips hit square and skis are flat, roll 10 toes at the same time to find the new edge

6) flex the new inside leg/extend the outside leg as pressure begins to build. 

 

Anyone have a video of this move that they can post?  Also, what cues should I be feeling when doing this, and how do I avoid getting back seat when relaxing?  I feel that this move will really get me loosened up: I seem to be having trouble rolling down the fall line with just the old outside leg release; I need to get the hips moving more and squared up, skis flat, simultaneous edge change, during the transition.  

post #2 of 28

1 though 6 IMO is right

 

forget about back seat/middle/too far forward. You will be at different point in balance all along the turn dare I say the most dynamic turners are actually a little aft at the start of the turn but are balanced and forwards at the apex.

 

here is some video of extremely exggerated cross under turns

 

 

also Id like to add to go along with with my bumps shouldnt burn your quads thread that in this video the transition is way unweighted the actually flexion and then extentsion of the legs is done with almost no weight on the legs and there for is not as taxing as it would seem to be.

post #3 of 28

Cross under transitions are hard to classify in the choices given. Imagine a tug of war. Instead of resisting the pull you decide to let the rope pull you. The strong outside leg would relax enough to flex, the inside leg would extend, the body would migrate towards where the rope would pull it. If you are aft, you would move forward. So as BW suggests it involves a bit of all six choices. Personally I don't pull my feet back as much as I allow my pelvis to move over the feet. 

post #4 of 28

It depends Dawg! (caveat emptor - I'm just making this up as I go)

 

I'm with JASP on your options list make the answer hard. Let's start with thinking about short radius down the fall lines where the center of mass goes straight down the fall line. These have to be cross under turns. How do you make these turns? One way to think about is simply pulling your feet back underneath you. But you still have long leg short leg and edge changing going on too.

 

As you transition to larger radius turns, you get the option to do cross over or cross under turn transitions. In either case though, the relative movements are the same: the hips are crossing over the ski and the feet are passing underneath the hips. So how do you tell the difference? It all depends on how the feet get to underneath the body. If the new outside leg is extending at the start of the transition you're going to be pushing the hips downhill to the over the feet position and doing cross over. If the new inside foot initiates the transition by being pulled uphill to underneath the feet, then you're doing cross under. The problem is that you can do both movements simultaneously. Which isn't really a problem because you end with a nice turn that way as well. Who cares what it's called?

 

My experience has been that as you get to longer radius turns, cross under initiation becomes much harder to do. The bigger the turn, the harder to cross under. Also, the slower the speed, the harder it is to cross under. In theory, this should help provide the answers you seek. But I can't get there from here.

 

So I haven't really answered the question yet. When I think of cross under turns, I either think of the ski bringing my feet back under me and cutting under the path of the body or I think about aggressively retracting my feet for turn initiation. When I think of cross over turns, I think of trying to let my upper body flow inside of the new turn either by collapsing the new inside leg or extending the new outside leg from the ankle. That's what works for me. Other people may only focus on tipping the legs, flexing the ankle, pulling or pushing the feet. Because ankle flex, counter, angulation, etc. all play a role in turns any one of them can work as a mental cue. My perception though is that the most common method of achieving cross under is thinking about them as retraction turns - or initiating the turn by retracting both legs.

 

This is just my 2 cents on the topic. If there isn't someone calling BS on this I'd be disappointed.

post #5 of 28

Some of the best cross under skiing I've seen is from the Czech racer Sarah Zahrobska.  Here she is yesterday, and she doesn't stand out so much....have the others caught up?  She skis 2nd.

 

http://www.universalsports.com/mediaPlayer/media.dbml?SPSID=105986&SPID=12760&DB_OEM_ID=23000&_MODE_=ONDEMAND&CLIP_ID=379978&CLIP_FILE_ID=388374

post #6 of 28

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post

 

 My perception though is that the most common method of achieving cross under is thinking about them as retraction turns - or initiating the turn by retracting both legs.

 

This is just my 2 cents on the topic. If there isn't someone calling BS on this I'd be disappointed.

I agree with Rusty in that cross under involves retraction of both legs as they move under the body from side to side. In a normal cross over move there is a more distinct vertical movement of the body as the old outside leg retracts while the old inside flexed leg  extends resulting in a directional movement of the CoM to the inside of the new turn. This vertical movement may vary in degree but there is always some change in the distance between the body plane of movement and the surface of the snow. In a cross under the body maintains a more constant plane remaining parallel in its movement to the snow surface. We sometimes tell students to imagine that they are skiing in a tunnel or that they should imagine a line through their belly button which remains parallel to the snow. 

Since the body does not rise relative to the snow surface we must retract both legs through transition to make space for them to move under the body. The extension is then more lateral than directional as in a cross over turn. 

The question is when does cross under become cross over. There is no distinct border between them and so it is a subjective call. 

post #7 of 28


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcarlson View Post

 

 

I agree with Rusty in that cross under involves retraction of both legs as they move under the body from side to side. In a normal cross over move there is a more distinct vertical movement of the body as the old outside leg retracts while the old inside flexed leg  extends resulting in a directional movement of the CoM to the inside of the new turn. This vertical movement may vary in degree but there is always some change in the distance between the body plane of movement and the surface of the snow. In a cross under the body maintains a more constant plane remaining parallel in its movement to the snow surface. We sometimes tell students to imagine that they are skiing in a tunnel or that they should imagine a line through their belly button which remains parallel to the snow. 

Since the body does not rise relative to the snow surface we must retract both legs through transition to make space for them to move under the body. The extension is then more lateral than directional as in a cross over turn. 

The question is when does cross under become cross over. There is no distinct border between them and so it is a subjective call. 


 

That's all true.  You can either make it a cross over, a cross under, or a little of both, and you can think of it in whatever terms you want.  I guess all I want to say is that one of my Masters coaches took us all out to summer camp at Mt. Hood about 10 years ago, and he had a chance to watch the US B Team guys running GS for a couple of days before we got there.  What he told us, and what he had us working on, was crossing over with the upper body.  Crossing under is fine if you're running a bunch of gates more or less in the fall line without a lot of offset, which happens on the flats in slalom.  In any kind of round turn with offset, however, thinking about crossing under can leave you in the back seat and inside.  Crossing over (and not just over, but down the hill...I think about moving my hips toward the center of the new turn) gets your body in the right alignment so that when your skis load up and snap, you'll be there to stand against them.  You see this a lot in WC GS.  To me, even mentally, it's a lot more proactive than crossing under...

 

post #8 of 28

1)  Start with one-footed skiing.  Or 80 or 90% of your weight on the outside ski with the outside leg nearly straight and the inside leg flexed and light. 

2)  Relax that outside leg.  If more quickness is needed, pull both knees up toward your chest.  You maintain centered balance by tipping forward at the waist momentarily bringing the center of mass over the center of the feet.

3)  Strongly invert the new, light inside foot.  (Tip it to its little toe edge). 

4)  Pull both feet back strongly when they are light in the transition.

5)  Continue the ankle force to invert the new inside foot and allow the inside knee & hip to drop toward the snow.

6)  Extend the outside leg to maintain contact with the snow.  Do not push off on the outside leg nor evert the outside foot for more big toe edge angle.

7)  Maintain lateral balance over the outside ski's inside edge.

8)  Maintain fore & aft balance over the center of the outside foot by pulling the inside foot back as strongly as needed.

9)  Counter...turn the hips & shoulders to the outside of the turn.

10)  Continue the inside ankle inversion force and allowing the inside knee & hip to drop more toward the hill while balancing over the outside ski.  During the last 1/3 of the turn the outside knee may be flexed a bit to tighten the turn radius.  The increased forces in the lower part of the turn are handled by more edge angle, not by flexing the knees for force absorbtion.

2)  Repeat

 

 

post #9 of 28

Push both feet forward a couple of inches to unweight the skis and wait for the turn to develop

post #10 of 28

mmmm, brains.....

 

Thanks for digging up this dead thread.

 

You ski instructors just like to make things too complicated

 

If you can just think of your skis separately from your body, or the main portion of your body, it's easy.

 

Just keep tipping your skis so they continue to turn under you as you stop resisting momentum and allow your body to not turn.  It's like walking a dog on a leash, your skis being the dog and your legs being the leash.  The dog turns in front of you and the leash goes slack.  Eventually (maybe sooner than your think), your body and legs will force the skis to tip into the next turn; that leash only has so much slack in it.

post #11 of 28

I like to think of the cross-under as an almost-active absorption of the virtual bump.  If crossing the fall-line is the through of the bump, and the transition is the top, then you absorb the virtual bump at the transition, and keep you COG from going up at the point.

 

The reason I say "almost-active," is that the rhythm is slower than in real bumps, and you don't need to be as actively absorbing the compression, just don't resist it too hard.

 

The feeling you should strive for, is the feet extending side to side, without the buildup of pressure in the completion phase, and without the popping out of the turn in the transition.  You should also feel that your COG is moving more steadily along the fall line, rather than being slowed down during the transition.  You're just letting your body flow down, by absorbing the bump, instead of resisting it.

 

 

 

 

post #12 of 28

Incognito's post 

 

There is a whole spectrum of movement in my mind, between cross over and cross under that entails timing of the extension with edge change.  We should become proficient along the whole spectrum or blending of these two movements.

post #13 of 28

Ghost, while I agree with you about minutia being a bit tedious, I feel any coach worth their price needs to understand skiing on a level most student would find superfluous. The difference between a good teacher and a great one is the ability to communicate those concepts and ideas to their students in a package that the students find easy to digest.

post #14 of 28

Dawg, during the second half of a turn what part of your body is resisting the most forces? Wouldn't you agree that it's the outside leg? So doesn't it make sense to concentrate most on how you move that leg to facilitate the transition from one turn to the next? In a cross under transition it needs to flex progressively. The later you initiate that flexing the less time you give yourself to get back to a near neutral stance and beyond. So that leg can become a road block in this situation. Another thing to consider is that if you flex it too fast, or too soon you will abbreviate the turn finish and end up in the next turn before you're ready to be there. So make sure you understand the importance of timing your movements so you are arriving at neutral at the exact spot you intended. Not before, not after, exactly where and when you intended to be there. Only then are you truely set up to begin the next turn.

This is where most ten step programs fall apart. Mostly because that approach requires a subjective decision about how well you performed each step. It's essential during the learning process but at some point you need to shut off that subjective narrator that operates in the recent past. High level performance requires you to concentrate on the near future with a clear sense of purpose. So the challenge is to concentrate on developing ownership of a movement in practice but to shift your focus away from the details as you ski. It won't happen overnight, or without a conscious choice to shut off that little voice and just perform. That's why my advice was packaged as an activity, not a list of actions. You and most people possess the intrinsic ability to do the tug of war activity without a detailed list of what to move and when to move it. It's also why in the first part of this post I chose to recommend a strong focus on flexing the outside leg. Notice I discussed the need to flex the leg but I didn't mention how much each joint in that leg needs to flex.  In a lesson I would watch you with strong focus on determining how each joint in that outside leg moves before suggesting any changes. That simple activity would tell me a lot about your movement biases and would also determine the correct course of action for the lesson. Something we just can't do here on the net. As far as a sequential list of movements, study them but remember your specific sequence of movement will probably be slightly different. Try the tug of war activity with a friend, get comfortable with flexing that leg as you stop resisiting your friend's pull. If you find yourself struggling to stay balanced ask your friend to watch you leg flex with a focus on which joint flexes the most. Then play with different amounts of flex in each joint until you feel yourself staying more balanced. When you get back on the snow try the drill again and notice how that leg flexes differently while wearing ski gear.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 7/25/10 at 9:28am
post #15 of 28

Expert higher speed crossunder turns strongly resemble motorcycle racing turns. The latter are initiated by a natural phenomenon commonly referred to a "countersteering"' whereby a tur is initiated by a small momentary turn of the front wheel in the opposite [counter] direction.Simply stated, to turn right you would steer the front wheel to the left. The motorcycle will automatically lean and turn to the right and the wheels will crossunder the motorcycle's center of mass [CM]. The comparable movement in a crossunder turn would be to momentarily push both sks diagonally uphill from the traverse. Simply stated, to turn right you would push the skis forward to the left. The skis will automatically unweight and rotate to yhe the right  and crossunder the body's CM. The turn has a profoundly different feel from that of conventional [crossover] turns and is difficult to learn. You must keep trying until you get it--no small accomplishment

post #16 of 28

jbharstad, right on.  Consider, too, this alternative to getting the skis to cross under.  Rather than manually pushing the skis through, uphill as you say, quickly add edge angle.  The skis will then do it all on their own.   

 

http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Cross_Over_Under_Through.html

post #17 of 28

jbhastard - the topic of "countersteering" has been up for discussion before. Search the forum for old threads if you are interested. The ide is simply in order to turn one way initiate by steering briefly first in the opposite direction. My take on countersteering is to make a short jab right to go left. A determined edge set initiated by pointing my knees to the right. It works very nicely for me and is a good way of initiating a turn out of a traverse when you dont have any momentum. If Im linking turns the jab is part of the previous turn. In other words, by linking short turns down close to the fall line we countersteer every turn. Our CoM is offset down the hill.

post #18 of 28

Rick It appears we are on the same page. You definitly do not purposely try to edge the skis.Ypu will get sufficient edging naturally.With experience and at higher speeds,countercarving can be reduced almaost to extinction. However you should always feel the countercarve grip yhe snow and as if your skis are diverging uphill even if these feelings are only marginal.The reality is that the divergence of the skis uphill from the traverse is more imaginary than real. However that should be of little concern. What matters is that you should feel as if your skis are diverging uphill from the traverse,  ie, away from and to the outside of theforthcoming turn.

post #19 of 28

tdk6. Thanhs for your interest. I would bet that those "old threads" are about comventional weight-shift, up unweighted [crossover] turns. They most likely would not apply to "my" crssunder turns which are dowqn unweighted. My crossunder turns are initiated by a countercarving which is not a part of the previous turn.

post #20 of 28

jbharstad - No, your assumption is wrong. The whole ide behind countersteering is that you dont have to conventionally weight shift up. The momentum is created by the interaction and crossing of the path of the skis and your CoM. The movement stays in your legs. We are talking brushed/steered/skidded non carved turns offcourse. You are using a new word to me, countercarving. Tell me, if the countercarve is not part of the arc from the previous carved turn what is it? Do you end the turn and go straight across and then carve uphill to start the downunweight followed by a carve downhill? Depending on how you define carving offcourse but lets say we stick to the original meaning which is edge locked... why would you need to countersteer to initiate a new carved turn? You only need to tip!

post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

jbhastard - the topic of "countersteering" has been up for discussion before. Search the forum for old threads if you are interested. The ide is simply in order to turn one way initiate by steering briefly first in the opposite direction. My take on countersteering is to make a short jab right to go left. A determined edge set initiated by pointing my knees to the right. It works very nicely for me and is a good way of initiating a turn out of a traverse when you dont have any momentum. If Im linking turns the jab is part of the previous turn. In other words, by linking short turns down close to the fall line we countersteer every turn. Our CoM is offset down the hill.


This sounds like a defensive or braking type movement here.  It sounds much like a downstem to a platform to push off?  A more offensive alternative might be to increase tip pressure or increase edge angle or both simultaneously to tighten radius rather than jabbing anything?  Jabbing in english conjures the image of a disrupted arc.

post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post


This sounds like a defensive or braking type movement here.  It sounds much like a downstem to a platform to push off?  A more offensive alternative might be to increase tip pressure or increase edge angle or both simultaneously to tighten radius rather than jabbing anything?  Jabbing in english conjures the image of a disrupted arc.



Might be a language thing but the jab includes tip pressure, edging and pivot. Defensive.... well yes and no. I would call a turn initiation a offensive move. The ide is to create momentum and offset your CoM. When you are linking turns you do it automaticly. Skiing down a steep slope in the fall line is far from defensive. Zipper line bump skiing is also far from defensive. The complete opposite. F1 driving is offensive but braking is defensive. BTW, driving a car without brakes is very defensive. Have you ever tried it? You have to be very careful. Driving a car with brakes is offensive... here:

 

Glowing brakes 2.jpg

post #23 of 28

tdk6. Your comments are insightful and I take them very seriously. Explaining the crossunder skiing is like explaining an elephant to a blind man. I have written extensively about the crossunder way of skiingon the internet. You can find answers to your questions there if interested because the screen goes blank before I can finish most letters if they are of any length!!!~

post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

jbhastard - the topic of "countersteering" has been up for discussion before. Search the forum for old threads if you are interested. The ide is simply in order to turn one way initiate by steering briefly first in the opposite direction. My take on countersteering is to make a short jab right to go left. A determined edge set initiated by pointing my knees to the right. It works very nicely for me and is a good way of initiating a turn out of a traverse when you dont have any momentum. If Im linking turns the jab is part of the previous turn. In other words, by linking short turns down close to the fall line we countersteer every turn. Our CoM is offset down the hill.


This sounds like a defensive or braking type movement here.  It sounds much like a downstem to a platform to push off?  A more offensive alternative might be to increase tip pressure or increase edge angle or both simultaneously to tighten radius rather than jabbing anything?  Jabbing in english conjures the image of a disrupted arc.



 It sounds like there might be some subtle semantic differences between counter steering and counter carving. But I've experienced the sensation of using ski edge hookup at the end of a turn to "drive" the skis underneath the body (cross under) to set up an aggressive new turn initiation. I've also seen some examiners do this movement less aggressively as part of their normal turns (no names mentioned Bugs). Although this movement is not part of an "ideal" (i.e. with smoothly decreasing edge angles) turn finish, it neither feels nor looks defensive. I can see how "jab" could be used to describe this movement (the result is kind of a jab), but for me the experience is driven purely by tipping the skis.

post #25 of 28

tdk6. My last nate was disjointed. On several occasions the screen disappears before I can finish a letter, especially if the letter is lng or takes a lot of time. Until I get this fixed there will be no letters from me , regrettably

post #26 of 28

jbharstad - yeah the editor thing is a problem.

 

To make your writing "safe" you can try writing in a word processor or mail editor and then copy the finished text to epic. If epic then malfunctions you have another copy and can redo it easily

post #27 of 28

Ok, I thaught the problem was my computer or line. Hopefully someone gets it fixed.....

post #28 of 28

Question and comments indicate that my original post of 11/24/10 needs clarification. Add " a few inches " to the sixth sentence to read. : Simply stated, to turn right you would push the skis a few inches to the left. Also , I called the counter move in a  crossunder turn countercarving rather than countersteering because it is carved not steered. Contrived vs automatic. Think automatic for         crossunder turns About the only thing contrived about the crssunder turn , as I describe it, is the turn initiation.You must purposely push the skis diagonnally uphill.  Subsequent rotary,pressure control,and edging movements and their affects are largely reflexive [automatic]. Most will think yhat this farfetched. It is too far removed from their Knowledge and experience. Typically they must experience  it to believe it. Think the natural phenomenom of countersteering for motorcycle turns.


Edited by jbharstad - 1/29/11 at 4:00pm
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