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Yet another angle on Rotary

post #1 of 39
Thread Starter 
Recently I was discussing with another instructor whether when skiing on one leg there is any leg steering or is something else being used to tourn the ski?

So, let me rephrase the question, When we ski on one leg how do we turn the ski?

And, If we use something other than leg steering why should we ski on one leg if it promotes an incorrect move?
post #2 of 39
You can steer while skiing on one leg either by unweighting a little or by riding a flat ski. This is easier (for me) than turning by tipping the ski to the little toe edge. Either way it's a good exercise to improve your fore-aft balance.

post #3 of 39
Good Q!

I think the "steering" avaliable when standing on one leg would be subtle. There can be recruited rotation in thighs from kinetic chain if both feet are being tipped for edging(especially the one in air!). Any big rotary impulse would probably have to come from rotation passed down from upper body (by tightening muscles in lower torso & legs) or counter-rotation by a quick twist of leg(s) against mass of upper body.

Play with it on snow, see how your body responde to different "intents" of subtle guidiing vs. quick pivot vs. power sterring.
post #4 of 39
Originally posted by Tibetan Tree Frog:

And, If we use something other than leg steering why should we ski on one leg if it promotes an incorrect move?
In my experience there are 2 basic mechanisms for performing a 1 footed turn to the outside of the ski (and of course everything in between). (Turning to the inside of the ski is usually done in a manner very similar to 2 footed skiing, is realtively easy for most, and a different part of the exercise). Turning to the outisde can be done by 1) leaning over the outside of the ski to flatten it or tip it slightly while guiding (pivoting) it in the same direction or 2) trying to retract the ski towards the hips and at the same time tipping it towards the little toe edge. (The second case can obviously be viewed as somewhat equivalent to flexing since you are standing on that ski but the cue to retract seems to work better and I think it is a better analogy for 2 footed skiing - analagous to "lightening").

Contrary to being an "incorrect move" the second teaches a skier a tremendous amount about weighted tipping of the inside foot and has direct carry over to free skiing. (Of course, in deference to previous discussion, an almost exclusive focus on tipping to the outside of the foot automatically recruits some external hip rotation/rotary).
post #5 of 39
Thread Starter 

I agree with your description of how to make this move, whith one question? How do I pivot my ski? I beleive it would come from upper body rotation or counter rotation.

So you are saying the benefits of learning to tip the new inside ski while weighted out weighs any negative which would come from upper body rotation?
post #6 of 39
Either the tipping or the pivoting should have priority.
I think if your goal was to pivot, minimise initial tipping.
If your goal were to tip/carve, minimise any pivoting, just steer/guide as needed.

You certainly can try to do both at the same time, but it will require more effort applied to each's creating movements to overcome the resistance created by the other activity.

Why would you want to mix these activities except for very short braking pivot check turns (or hockey stop)? In such turns where you want a big re-direction of skis, simply unweight, get skis both tipped and pivoted with minimum conflict, and then re-engage ready for edge set/rebound to launch into the next one.
Just like we did in the old days.

[ January 16, 2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #7 of 39

First a disclaimer: I'm not that great at 1 footed skiing (especially compared to someone like ARC who is exceptional!) although it's something I like to work on. (I am really pleased, though, that this year I can finally do it on my right side where I have a hip replacement). Even so, as I've gotten better I think the upper body rotation has been reduced enough (eliminated??) to really let me benefit even more from the exercise. The main question I used to have about this was whether the variation in balance and position required for 1 footed skiing negated any positive effects. With practice I've decided absolutely not.
post #8 of 39
I steer the same way on one foot as I do on two. The foot that is in the air does its job. If I am on my right ski and I turn right, I tip the (in the air) left ski towards its big toe edge and steer my right ski. If I turn to the left I tip the (in the air) left ski towards its little toe edge and steer the (in the air) left ski around the turn to the left. You have to remember to stay on the tongues of both boots whether in the air or on the ground.

[ January 16, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #9 of 39

Pierre gave me an interesting idea. I wonder if the foot that is in the air has enough weight and enough rotational resistance (due to the ski attached to it), that it can provide the resistance needed to turn the other foot properly?

Have you ever tried skiing on one ski, and actually remove the other ski? I have, and it's a whole lot harder. I never thought of why, but I think it might be the reduced weight and rotational resistance. You lose that mass to turn against.

If that's the case, then skiing on one foot (with the ski on) wouldn't be as dissimilar as it seems, from skiing on two feet. It certainly doesn't feel that dissimilar sometimes (when everything is moving correctly).

post #10 of 39
Good question, TTF. The short answer is that pivoting that ski you're standing on will involve the upper body in one of three ways. Because of this, it will lack precision. The long answer follows:

Remember that there are five, and only five, basic mechanical ways we can turn our skis.

1. You can get the skis to turn themselves--either by carving (bending into an arc that slices a curve of its own shape), or by being knocked around ("deflected") some other way--hitting a chunk of snow, etc. Since this is something ELSE turning your ski, it doesn't really answer your question about how YOU can turn it.

2. You can turn them with "Rotation." This classic technique involves turning one part of your body first--typically your shoulders, hips, or arms--and then "yanking" the skis around when you slow or stop the rotation of the first part. It's a "one-two" move, and can involve both skis turning at once, or one at a time.

3. You can turn them with "Counter-Rotation." This is doing "The Twist"--rotating the upper and lower body/skis simultaneously in opposite directions. Newton's Third Law of "equal and opposite reactions" is clearly illustrated!

4. You can turn them with a "Blocking Pole Plant." If you reach your arm out to the side and something pushes back on it, it will turn you the same way a wrench turns a nut. Angling the pole forward and planting it firmly causes a brief rotary impulse that can initiate a turn. Reaching a pole out to the side and dragging firmly can also provide some torque to turn the skis, and, while not terribly precise, can actually allow subtle steering of one or both skis.

5. You can turn your legs independently, each using the support/resistance of the other to turn against. I've described it before as how you would move if you stood on two separate barstools, one with each foot, and turned them with your LEGS ONLY. You can, of course, also turn them with counter-rotation, but true "Independent Leg Steering" involves ONLY the legs. It's important to understand the difference. The femurs rotate in the hip sockets, and the pelvis does not move. Nothing above the pelvis is involved in any way whatsoever, when done correctly.

This last mechanism is the way we steer modern skis in modern turns. It is the only one that we can sustain throughout the turn for accurate, continuous guiding. It is precise and powerful, and with it we can pivot either or both skis quickly, slowly, one at a time, or both at the same time.

But we can NOT do it with one foot lifted! As soon as you lift one foot off its barstool, the only way you can turn the other one is with your upper body, through one of the other mechanisms. (Or you could ask someone else to turn it for you, which would be equivalent to the first mechanism.) And we can't do it with a very narrow or closed stance either. With both feet on one barstool, you will once again need the involvement of your upper body to turn it.

Terry Dunne, a Level 1 certified instructor I worked with last season, came up with a great way to remember the basic principles of the Rotary Skill:

The Four R's of Rotary:


You could also add the fifth "R"--"Riding"--to include carving or otherwise deflecting the ski, but again, this is not YOU turning the ski. And, of course, there are many variations and sub-categories of the basic four, and they can combine in a myriad of subtle ways.

But you cannot "steer" that one ski if you lift the other. All you can do is throw it around with your upper body, or try to accomplish a pure carved turn.

I hope this helps!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ January 17, 2003, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #11 of 39
Thread Starter 

Great stuff thanks, so when I practice one legged skiing am I helping my skiing or hindering it? I must be using some kind of upper body rotation, does this negate benefits of moving CM over the new inside ski?

What about comments above about the other ski providing enough resistance in the air?

post #12 of 39

I have to disagree with Bob Barnes. He has already disagreed with me in another thread, so here is my answer.

Primary Movements, the basis of PMTS, suggest that a modern shaped ski will turn on it's own (within its design parameters)when placed on it's edge. One of the more efficient ways setting a weighted ski(the skier's stance ski) on it's edge, is putting the skier' center of mass (CM) into the new turn. If the CM is put into a turn, the rest of the anatomy will follow. As the foot is encased in a boot and bound to the ski, the ski will also follow creating an edged ski, with no further input. During this scenario, the entire stance leg has been passive, ie, no movement. Moreover, the CM is not thrust into the new turn. How is this possible? Note that the CM is located, usually, just below the navel.

The CM is controlled by the actions of the free foot. If you were to lift one foot off the floor, your body would try to fall in the direction of the lifted foot. The lifted foot is the free foot. If you were to invert your foot, ie, tip it towards it's little toe, there is more difficulty remaining vertical. Add in a bit of lift and your knee points laterally from your body, does it not? When this occurs, your leg weight pulls your CM further laterally. This is the essance of what we call "free foot management." Controlling how much lifting and tipping through a turn, controls where the CM is during the turn. Controlling the CM controls the edge angle of the stance ski, which controls turn shape.

Many skiers that try Primary Movements find that they have problems maintainig a consistant turn shape. This is usally caused by not maintaining active tipping throughout the turn. You don't like the shape of the turn? Change the tipping angle and the turn shape will change. In essance, you are changing the location of the CM in the turn.

TTF, While the foot is not completely off the barstool, for practical purposes, it is. During some of our ski school training, I had to demonstrate turning on one ski from a stand still. Balance is a problem, I used my pole to remain upright, but I could do it. While I respect Bob's abilities, there are other ways to ski. Primary Movements is one of them.
post #13 of 39
I agree with Bob comprehensive explanation. What he relates has been long held as the complete view of rotary in skiing.

However,I would suggest we be open to including rotary that "results" from other activities essential to modern skiing, not described above.

When we are rolling/tipping our feet (intent to edge), and keep that activity engaged, the ab/aductors are recruited creating a rotary force in the direction the feet are rolling/tipping as a result of the kinetic chain. This rotary effect is subtle in that it is directly proportional to the intensity with which the feet are rolling or tipping. An additional really cool cosmic effect of this is that is helps orient the head of the femurs to the inside edges of the skis. I guess the body genius really does know how to ski efficiently!

Note: I use the verb context of rolling/tipping (skiing is a verb sport), if the feet are statically tipped (not engaged) the kinitic chain effect recruited by the feet shuts down and this rotary force shuts off as well.

I recognise this result to be the same as can be caused by #5 above. But, I see that as the distinction, this is an effect, #5 is a cause. As I get this recruited rotary from rolling/tipping feet in a carved turn, it can easily be augumented intentially as needed. I think this is what most good skiers who activly use their feet do, whether they realize what is actually going on or not, and that is fine.

Additionally in that #5 does not recruit the engagment of the feet, it is the go to move for a quick low edge pivot or re-direction or really applying horsepower when needed (intent to turn the skis).

The other big differance with #5 is that this recruited rotary effect is there whether you are standing on one or two feet, If the feet are still rolling/tipping (stand up and try it).

Given these distinctions I'd suggest that this rotary recruited by a remote action, the feet, is important enough to be considered an important aspect of efficient modern skiing, and not just lump it into #5 as being the same (effect vs cause).

Anybody for #6? or even #5-A?

Even if not, if anyone is enlightend, good enough.

[ January 17, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #14 of 39
Thread Starter 
Ric H,

Thanks for the comments! I agree that the position of the free leg definetly effects the CM and moving the CM is crucial for one legged skiing. However, if I turn by simply tipping to an edge(whether with feet,knee, hip, whatever) I am essentialy skiing one legged railroad tracks correct.

Most people I see ski one legged have turns that are somewhat skidded. Where does the skid come from? Rotary movements, lack of edge and ski slipping or something else?

post #15 of 39
That skid is usually the "flywheel" effect of a BIG rotary that was used to re-direct (displace or pivot) skis at start of turn.
Usually the rest of turn is spent attempting to reduce that skid, so no turn shaping or guiding skills ever really develop.
post #16 of 39
Rick, It sounded to me, that Bob did address the PMTS way of making a turn, in his comment #1. Granted, he only used about 5 words, with the word "carving" being the operative word.

But I kind of have to disagree with Bob's statement that you can't make a one footed turn without leveraging from the upper body (rotation or counter rotation). I think that the foot/ski that's in the air provides enough rotational resistance to do so.

Stand on the barstools with your skis and boots on. Pick up one foot. I'd bet you can rotate that femur that you're standing on, withOUT using your upper body.

TTF has a couple of "barstools" (lazy susans mounted to plywood). I think you need to try it on those, and see if it works (and see if you don't crash and burn trying it on those things. They're dangerous!) :

Another thing to think about (and this is VERY importiant)... Once your CM gets to the inside of the new turn, and you bring the ski up on edge, rotation starts to become less horizontal, and more vertical. Therefore, even on one foot, we can leverage the weight of our body and the pressure created by the turn, to rotate against. It's the horizontal rotation (perpendicular to the surface) that doesn't have a resisting force to push against.

When we think about rotation and how it is used, I tend to think that a lot of very good skiers don't realize this, and try to rotate horizontally to the surface, and this is why they feel that every time they are asked to use rotation, they think that it means the skis will skid a lot more. If you use rotation around the angle of the lower legs coming out of the boot, it moves in an entirely different plane. Like taking a helicopter and tipping it over. The rotation of the blades (that IS rotation, right?) would force the blades into the ground, and would lift the tail of the helicpoter. If the helicopter were heavy enough (which it is), the tail wouldn't lift, but the rotor would break. The helicopter, therefore, is using it's weight as the resisting force for rotation, as long as the helicopter is not sitting flat (when it is, it uses the tail rotor to counteract the rotation).
post #17 of 39
Thread Starter 

Thanks! I just tried what you were talking about. And if I understand you correctly, while standing on my right leg I tip my foot to the right and my right femur turns in the hip socket. Is this the turning force you are referring to?
post #18 of 39
Yup! If someone were to hold your foot to simulate resistance of boot and skiing dynamics, the effect is even more noticable.
If you tip both feet, leading toward little toe with the one in the air, it works even better in that both sides of the body respond to the same "intent" message, vs. 1/2 active & 1/2 passive. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ January 17, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #19 of 39
Thread Starter 
John H,

You lost me with this vertical and horizontal rotary stuff.
post #20 of 39

Fabulous post! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

One thing to mention/add, (I think this was implied/derived, but not stated outright), is that this is why the ability to angulate properly affects our turn shape, pressure, rotary, etc. Without angulation (simply banking into the turn), and bringing the move you described into the kinetic chain, then you have to consciously seek that rotation, through muscular rotation of the femurs in the hip sockets.
post #21 of 39
Thread Starter 

So I concur lets add #6 on to Bob's list.

Later tonight I will suit up and try John H's drill on a barstool with skis and all and see if it works.

post #22 of 39
I concur with what Johnh is into here.
Rotary is (commonly) considered to be applied as around long axis of the lower leg shaft. (foot rotates on barstool thang).

So when skis are flat on slope they swivel easilly.

When skis are tipped in edge, the rotary is resisted by it's effect of trying to twist the ski tips into the slope and the tails away from it. But Hey, the result is not a bad thing if it is not overdone an results in unintended tails displacement! This rotary, as applied to a carved turn, keeps tips engaged and "seeking" the slope, especially in top of turn where the slope "falls away" into the falline. This is another of those really cool cosmic effects from rolling/tipping the feet.
post #23 of 39
Originally posted by Tibetan Tree Frog:
John H,

You lost me with this vertical and horizontal rotary stuff.
Stand on the floor and rotate your femurs. If you had skis on, the tips and tails would be moving horizontally. Now, lay down on your side, and rotate your femurs. The tips and tails move vertically. Somewhere in between standing and laying down, you are diagonal (inclined). If you are inclined to the left, and you are on your right ski, and you rotate your right ski counter clockwise, the tip wants to go down and left. Because it wants to go down (and the tail wants to go up and right), and you have gravity to keep you on the ground (and the ground is somewhat firm), the tail can't come up. therefore, you have gravity as a resisting force. When standing on your lazy susans, you are horizontal, and you use the opposing leg standing on the ground as a resisting force.

In your question of "can you make a proper turn only on one foot?" my answer is yes because you can move the CM inside the turn, and get the ski up on edge, therefore, taking the rotation move out of the purely hotizontal plane that has no resistance, into a somewhat vertical plane where gravity can offer the resistance.

And at the same time, as stated in my other posts, the swing weight of the ski that's in the air also offer some horizontal resistance (but not a lot).

[ January 17, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: JohnH ]
post #24 of 39
Thread Starter 
John H,

Intersting, but is it happening for the reasons described by arcmeister.

It is hard for me to try here. With Arcs idea I sttod on a sheet of paper. In your example it is the same sort of thing, tip the foot and that causes the femur to rotate. I am not sure that the resistance of the ground or gravity makes it possible to rotate more.
post #25 of 39
Thread Starter 
Bob Barnes,

What do you think about us adding a #6
post #26 of 39
Thread Starter 
Ric H.

Any additional thoughts about all this?
post #27 of 39
Originally posted by Tibetan Tree Frog:
John H,

Intersting, but is it happening for the reasons described by arcmeister.

It is hard for me to try here. With Arcs idea I sttod on a sheet of paper. In your example it is the same sort of thing, tip the foot and that causes the femur to rotate. I am not sure that the resistance of the ground or gravity makes it possible to rotate more.

Yes and no. Not really the same thing. He's telling you how to get there, I'm telling you what happens when you get there (if that makes any sense at all).

Arc is saying that by angulating, you get femur rotation. I'm saying that by rotating on an inclined axis, you can use gravity as the resisting force. In both cases, the skis are on an angle and are having rotational forces applied.

I was answering the question about whether you can use a rotational force while skiing on one ski, without rotating or counter rotating the upper body. The answer is yes, because of the inclined axis and gravity. In my statements, I didn't say how to get the ski into an inclined position. Nor did I say how to expend the effort to get the rotation. What Arc is saying, is that if you bend at the knees and ankles, and push your knees down toward the ground, it creates a rotational force in the femur, through the kinetic chain. The only reason you can do that on only one foot, is that the rotation is on an inclined axis. If it were not, then you would need a 2nd foot on the ground to turn against or you would need a rotation/counter rotation move from the upper body.
post #28 of 39
Originally posted by JohnH:
[QB]What Arc is saying, is that if you bend at the knees and ankles, and push your knees down toward the ground, it creates a rotational force in the femur, through the kinetic chain. QB]
I'm sorry if how I said it implied that the causing action is in the knees. It is not, it is in the feet.

What I said was:
"When we are rolling/tipping our FEET (intent to edge), and keep that activity engaged, the ab/aductors are recruited creating a rotary force in the direction the feet are rolling/tipping as a result of the kinetic chain."

What I hope to clarify is that the rolling/tipping of the FEET is the Causing Activity.

Resultant movement of the knees is the Effect of femur rotation by ab/aductors (up the chain) to the degree recruited by the active engagment of rolling/tipping of the FEET (base of chain).

I'm not picking on you, John. It is just that I run into so many instructors, and coaches, who having seen the knees move, assume the causing movement originates there (not understanding the foot's role in the kinetic chain?). Then they go out and teach skiers/racers to "move the knees" to the exclusion of awareness or need to engage the feet first for the process to be most efficient. The knees must be "allowed" to move as a responce to recruitment of larger muscles, not "forced" to move as a cause to the exclusion of the feet.

Hope this explains my $.02

[ January 17, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #29 of 39
What do you think about us adding a #6

A rotary movement, regardless of it's intent, is still a rotary movement. Let's not confuse the various combinations of specific muscles and movements that can be used to turn the foot with the underlying physical principles--that I described above.

It is certainly true that tipping a foot involves rotation of the femur, as does turning the leg--it creates torque ("rotary force"). Just because you didn't MEAN to turn it, though, doesn't change the important outcome--a rotary movement by any other name is still a rotary movement! And for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction--for every torque, an equal and opposite torque. Something has to move the other way, or provide resistance to allow the movement. This point is not debatable, by the way--you either understand it or you don't.

As far as rotary mechanisms are concerned, turning the foot as an indirect result of a focus on tipping it is no different from turning it as a result of directly focusing on turning it. Physics is unconcerned with your intent! Both involve torque, and both entail an equal and opposite reaction. Somewhere.

The question is--where is the equal and opposite reaction? When both feet are planted on the earth and separated, the other foot provides the resistance to the turning of the one. The earth itself "experiences" the equal and opposite reaction.

Lift the "free foot" and the equal and opposite reaction must occur somewhere in the body. Yes, you could swing the lifted foot forward and back to provide a brief impulse, either in the "one-two" action of "rotation," described above. Or you could swing it forward and back quickly, turning the other foot via "counter-rotation." True, these don't involve the "upper body," but they are the exact same principles I described above, and they involve all of their negative side-effects--notably, skidding. And even though you COULD do them, I'm not aware of anyone who suggests that you SHOULD turn a ski by lifting a foot and swinging it forward and back!

Another fallacy seems to be creeping in here. The upper body is much heavier than that little foot and ski you're trying to turn. Especially with the arms extended wide, it carries a lot of rotational inertia. This means that you when you turn your foot with counter-rotation, the upper body doesn't have to move much to provide the "equal and opposite reaction." The countering movement may be almost imperceptible, especially on the simulated and low-friction example of the barstool or lazy susan. But that does not mean it isn't involved! The earth does experience some opposite rotation too, when you turn against it, but it is so massive that you certainly wouldn't notice it.

So no--there is no sixth principle. If you turn your femur and leg--either directly by, well, turning it, or indirectly, as a result of tipping your foot--it REQUIRES a countering force. That force/counter-rotation occurs either in some other part of your body, or it can be transferred to the Earth through the other leg (or a pole, as I also described above).

The fact that there is some incidental rotation of the femur when you try to tip your foot is a poor excuse for suggesting that we should not actively, intentionally, and precisely steer! Indeed, it is more likely to be a problem, resulting in unintentional pivoting of the inside foot when intending to just tip it! It's like saying "my car is out of alignment--pulls to the right--so I don't have to steer...." I've seen many skiers who could not perform "railroad track turns" for this very reason. Purely tipping the ski to its "little toe edge," WITHOUT introducing torque parallel to the snow (pivoting it), involves rotating the lower leg and foot INWARD to counteract the outward rotation of the femur. Coordinating this movement is not easy for some skiers!

Incidental rotation of the femur when tipping the foot is also the cause of many skiers' tails washing out when they try to tip their outside skis more--the notorious "abstem" at the end of the turn.

Anyway, no--there is no #6!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ January 17, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #30 of 39
[quote]Originally posted by Tibetan Tree Frog:

I agree with your description of how to make this move, whith one question? How do I pivot my ski? I beleive it would come from upper body rotation or counter rotation.

Fastman responds: I might have something to add to this topic in reference to the question above.

Before I do however I just want to compliment you guys on an excellent thread. When Bob Barnes explained that it was not possible to steer a ski when the other one is lifted without employing upper body rotational forces it made me stop and wonder then how the heck have I been doing it all this time. I used steering for years as an introduction platform for lower level balance drills (pre carve platform) which included much one ski work and always did my demos with emphasis on a quite neutral upper body with smooth consistant steers. I never studied the bio mechanics of how I was accually accomplishing this (impossible feat) as you guys have here because it did'nt really seem like such a big deal to do, I would simply present the task to my students and then allow their bodies self discovery mechanism to take over, offering helpful hints if needed. This new unexplored ground is quite interesting to me.

Arc, I can see where a coach might give bio mechanically misguided suggestions with this as I doubt few coaches fully understand the principle of what's going on to this degree. One thing to keep in mind though Arc, it's not always the bio accuracy of the feedback from the coach that makes it valuable to the student, it is the light it turns on in the kids head. The student doesn't understand this stuff either, doesn't have too, but if the coach can illuminate a mental image that can be a catalyst for more productive movements then he has accomplished the ultimate goal. Also the image that works for one student is not always the same as the one that makes it click for the next, sometimes in that effort we have to employ a liberal use of reality! That said, it's always best to have an actual understanding of what reality is. Nice job.

OK, now for my explanation of how to pivot on one ski. Just so were clear, a pivot is a means of redirecting the ski during the transitional period between turns when the skis are unweighted. In the explanation I will refer to the transition period between a turn in which the ski your riding is in essence an outside ski and the following one in which it will be an inside ski. That is the more difficult transition.

As you are completing the outside ski turn counter rotate your hips and upper body so that they are facing directly down the falline in opposition to your ski which traveling across the hill. You now execute a cross over move, projecting yourself over the top of your ski and down the falline (be sure to keep the shoulders facing down hill during this move) producing a moment of lightness. In countering the upper body before this move you created in essence a coiled spring, and when the coil is released during the cross over your body will naturally attempt to return a neutral position (hips and shoulders in line with the feet) This is your pivot, the feet will come around during the light phase to orientate to the direction of travel of the upper body and you land on a ski (now an inside ski) that is pointing down the falline. At this point the flywheel effect Arc spoke of will take place, and you then have 2 choices: either go with the flywheel and once it disipates continue with a self created steer to finish the turn, or if you are doing this exercise in coordination with carved turns quickly absorb the flywheel effects with your edges and regain your carve.

You can get the feel of this at home. Stand on one foot, counter rotate your shoulders and hips about 45 degrees, and now imagine the direction your hips and shoulders are facing is the falline. From this position flex the knee of the foot your standing on and do a little hop forward (this simulates the cross over move) and land on the same foot you hopped off of. Notice how easily, almost naturally, your foot turns to match your hips and shoulders with no extra rotational moves neccessary? That's your pivot.

Good luck with it, and again, nice thread. :
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