or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Neutral - Page 2

post #31 of 43

Careful what you ask.........

The context of neutral most commonly used would have the skis (in your example) still pointing right, in the transition to their starting to turn left, down into the falline. What it represents, I see as an effect, not a cause. Any visual anominally that appears there is a reflection of activity before and thru the transition to achieve the intended outcome following it.

One of the downsides of this neutral referance point, and it's being considered both the end of that right turn and the beginning of the next left, is that it 'freezes' our focus on that point in time. I've always struggled with a point in time referance to intigrated activities that beg for flow and continuity. This neutral is but a moment in the the 'process' of coordinated movements that allow for transition from engaging to releasing as we change turning direction.

That this neutral has a start/finish referance is another of our left over baggagisms from an era of turn/traverse/turn/traverse that does not translate clearly to the continous turning of modern skiing.

One could make a case for another 'neutral' being in the falline where what we have is simply a balanced straight run stance (everything lined up and pointed the same direction), but tipped on edge enough to balance lateral forces (arguably the least complex phase of our traditional view of a 'turn'). This context of neutral could be thought of as in-between releasing to gravity, and resisting against it. This lends itself to suggest that a 'turn' is but a lane change from falline to falline.

Let us not become to obsessed with point in time snapshots, that detract from experiencing skiing as a flow of continious motion.


[ September 27, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #32 of 43
Brilliantly said, Mein Fueh.., oops Meister.
Skiing is Balance. Balance is dynamic. We are never in Neutral.
Re: Phil and Steve. They should add some warning to their advice about staring and ending a turn in neutral: Do as we do and not as we say. Like all good skiers they accelerate out of their turns. You dont win on the World Cup in Neutral.
post #33 of 43
Take a look at the photos that Bob B put up of Herman Maier in another topic "critique photos post by moose" (I think). Their is a great shot of nuetral. I think we can agree that Nuetral is not a position. Skiing has no "position" it is a dynamic movement sport and only a point of reference that we travel thru. As with all sports sometimes we need to break it down into parts to hone certain areas. This should not be confused with the actual activity of the whole motion together. As with golf, you do not hit the ball on your back swing but you need to get that right or you will be unable to hit the ball effectively. As Biowolf said you don't win on the world cup in nuetral, but you don't even get to compete with out a strong nuetral.

I disagree that the concept of nuetral is a throwback to turn traverse and has no value. There is value in every activity even a turn traverse. It is important to apply your coaching for the right reason to the right individual at the right time. It sounds like this was the case for Rusty.

I love the feeling I get from my skiing after I have worked on pausing thru nuetral and slowed everything down to feel this. When I go back to skiing I feel more conected to the snow and have an earlier edge engagement at the top of my turn allowing me to better manage turn shape and pressure thru out the turn.
post #34 of 43
Think of neutral as a position, akin, to the top of a backswing in golf. Golfers seek to to be "on plane" at the top of their backswing. In addition, the first move down from the top with a golfers hips often drops the arms under the swing plane into what for years has been referred to as "the slot" No one is advocating a pause or stoppage.

The late Cary Middlecoff was the only major championship winner who perfected a pause at the top of the backswing! Bob Murphy did it in the seventies as well.

Enough golf.

Neutral involves a position that we attain prior to initiation of the next turn. If I understand Bob's idea correctly, the three key elements are rotary, fore-aft balance, and lateral balance. He very specifically mentioned the fact that in the case of a traverse, it involves the least amount of edge angle that allows maintenance of a traverse.

As I understand the idea, it's the moment just before the release, the moment just before flat skis.

That moment may still involve turning. The most important reason for that is modern skis on edge are going to be turning. If they aren't still turning, some steering or counter-rotation must be in place and that isn't neutral!

I used to miss neutral due to excessive counter-rotation. I took the fix to an extreme and for a period became too square.

Is it static....no

Do we pause in the position....certainly not.

Do we flow through the position....most certainly.

We still get there much like Tiger Woods gets to the top of his backswing. Butch Harmon has the "eye" to examine whether Tiger passes theough the "right" position at the top.

Bob does as well!
post #35 of 43
Neutral IS a point we want to pass through, but, as Todo points out, trying to pause just long enough to recognize neutral as a valid exercise that puts one in real touch with the progression into the next turn. I think the key element to feel--as an exercise, again, not as a skiing activity--is equal weighting on the flat skis.

Rusty, where is it Bob mentions neutral in a traverse? I don't find any mention of traverse in his description of neutral and I don't find any mention of neutral in his description of traverse in my copy of the Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing. Is your information coming from something other than the Third Edition?
post #36 of 43
From clinics last year and from a recent phone conversation.

He has pledged to post his thoughts in the thread at some point.
post #37 of 43
I'm with Arcmeister on this one.
That's what I was trying to say in my first post on this topic.
I would suggest that you can't traverse in true neutral. If you were completely in "neutral" your skis would drift into the fall line until you were going straight downhill.(I spend a lot of time teaching this concept to my racers)(it's called "gliding")
In "real" skiing it's like that "flatshift" in a drag car where you stab the clutch, pull the lever and don't lift the throttle.(You better not be too long in neutral there)(especially at 10,000 RPMs)

[ September 30, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: SLATZ ]
post #38 of 43
I have a suggestion--lose the word neutral and replace it with the word transition. That's a word with forward movement, which is what you want to convey.
post #39 of 43
Originally posted by nolo:
I have a suggestion--lose the word neutral and replace it with the word transition. That's a word with forward movement, which is what you want to convey.
Here, here! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I frequently guide attention to what is going on thru the 'transition'.

I seldom, except in this thread, refer to 'neutral'.

[ September 30, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Arcmeister ]
post #40 of 43
Thread Starter 
Nolo, Arc,

I'm in the same boat with you folks. Been using the ideas talked about here for a long time but just seemed to run into the term neutral several times over the last couple seasons. That's why I asked if people had been using the concept under a different name. I always liked the term finishiation when I talked about it. Because it was a strange made up word it and the defination I attached to it stuck with people. the basic idea was that the finish of one turn and the initiation of the next either are the same thing or better blend togrther so seamlessly as to appear to be the same. If you finish one turn and then initiate the next then you will have a dead spot between the turns..


[ September 30, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Ydnar ]
post #41 of 43
I agree with Nolo and others that "transition" is a better term, but I also like "neutral." To me neutral suggests a point where all the turning forces have been released, we are in good fore and aft and lateral balance, and there is not much edge or rotary going on. It's a spot where you can intiate a turn of any radius or duration, or even maintain your "neutral" line. It seems to me a "transition" from turn to turn can occur whether or not we are in good balance or even when we are cranking our skis through the transition.
As a drill, I think finding a "neutral" spot beteen turns is helpful for some skiers, but once that neutral spot is discovered, the emphasis should immediately shift to flowing through that spot, rather than dwelling there.

Regards, John
post #42 of 43
In the spirit of "finishiation" couldn't we just call it "NEUTRITION"? Or would that be too confusing?

Good points JD.

Spag :

[ September 30, 2003, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Notorious Spag ]
post #43 of 43
Neutrition would be nourishing tho...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching