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Stance width change from white pass turns to GS turns, why?

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 

skiing at Stowe last friday, I got a chance to recieve from feedback from our resident epic,

 

Trying to slow down my edge change in GS turns we started to do white pass turns.

 

Not that one stance width is right and another is wrong but here is the question. What would cause my normal hip width stance I use in GS turns to become closed and nearly locked on white pass turns?

 

 

post #2 of 9

 I am looking for a picture. You posted it a year or two ago. You were wearing your trademark green pants and making GS turns on a greybird day at Snowbird. Do you know the picture I mean? Can you post it?

 

I think that your GS turn stance is actually a little wider than you'd want it to be. It's not because of vertical separation of your feet it's because you move inside too fast and are  balanced more on the inside foot with the outside foot carving asa bit of an outrigger.

 

I was hoping that we could start with the WP and find a middle ground between there and your current GS turn.

post #3 of 9
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 I am looking for a picture. You posted it a year or two ago. You were wearing your trademark green pants and making GS turns on a greybird day at Snowbird. Do you know the picture I mean? Can you post it?

 

I think that your GS turn stance is actually a little wider than you'd want it to be. It's not because of vertical separation of your feet it's because you move inside too fast and are  balanced more on the inside foot with the outside foot carving asa bit of an outrigger.

 

I was hoping that we could start with the WP and find a middle ground between there and your current GS turn.

 

thats really old picture and those green pants are one season olde so i might not even be the right one.

 

this is the most recent picture of me doing GS like turns, about a month old

 

 

I know it doesnt support the on hte inside ski thing but the deal is any picture of me older than march of last year is obsolete IMO.

post #4 of 9

 That picture is much better than what I saw (from a half mile away) coming down Gondolier.

 

I think that you can still see a little "a-frame" and a little over-flexed/backseat. It looks like your left femur must be close to horizontal. Another reason I wanted to do the WP turns and why I (briefly) touched on the pole grip click

 

ps - you work fast! can you find the one from Bird? Maybe it was only last year. Or maybe you weren't wearing the pants.

post #5 of 9

Bushwacker, the reason your stance narrows in White Pass turns has to do with the balance point being on the inside ski when doing them.  Wider stances require more flexion in the inside leg as you tip on edge.  The more you flex the inside leg, the weaker it gets.  The body therefore naturally extends the inside leg when doing WP turns, and the stance in turn narrows.   

 

As to your photo above, that form of edging is called double knee angulation.  Check out the angle in .your outside knee, and how your edge and shin angles are close to matching.  I was filming these just today for the new DVD's.  It effective for staying outside ski dominant to the point of overkill.  It's a weak and dangerous position, it limits ultimate possible edge angles, and can at times cause explosive cross under transitions that can occasionally prove hard to control.  

 

Focus on this as you ski.  If you notice double knee angulation is a common employment, work on lengthening your outside leg early in the turn, and keeping it long all through the entire turn.  Replace the knee angulation with counter and hip angulation.

 

www.YourSkiCoach.com

post #6 of 9
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 That picture is much better than what I saw (from a half mile away) coming down Gondolier.

 

I think that you can still see a little "a-frame" and a little over-flexed/backseat. It looks like your left femur must be close to horizontal. Another reason I wanted to do the WP turns and why I (briefly) touched on the pole grip click

 

ps - you work fast! can you find the one from Bird? Maybe it was only last year. Or maybe you weren't wearing the pants.

 

I have of ton of pictures from the bird I am on my inside ski on every single one of them...

 

now that we have the white pass turns thing solved about balance point and the fact it has be closer in white pass turns.

 

next question

 

knee angulation

 

how do I stop it? is there any where its a good skill to have?

 

also by hip angulation do you mean femur at hip joint or hip at the spine?

 

 

Rick you are right some days I have issues with cross under exsploive transitions. I am all ears on whats to do to not knee angulate

post #7 of 9
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post

 

 

 

I have of ton of pictures from the bird I am on my inside ski on every single one of them...

 

now that we have the white pass turns thing solved about balance point and the fact it has be closer in white pass turns.

 

next question

 

knee angulation

 

how do I stop it? is there any where its a good skill to have?

 

also by hip angulation do you mean femur at hip joint or hip at the spine?

 

 

Rick you are right some days I have issues with cross under exsploive transitions. I am all ears on whats to do to not knee angulate

 

epic maybe this picture? this is 2 year olds

 

 

 edit to add...

 

I think skiing at small mountain this year maybe has made the knee angulation worse because its easier to get higher angles at slower speeds using it.

post #8 of 9

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post 

 

next question

 

knee angulation

 

how do I stop it? is there any where its a good skill to have?

 

also by hip angulation do you mean femur at hip joint or hip at the spine?

 

 

Rick you are right some days I have issues with cross under exsploive transitions. I am all ears on whats to do to not knee angulate

 

I preach all the time that there are no universally bad technique,,, all variations have their time and place, and knee angulation is no different.  You appear to have a handle on where that might be, as evidenced by your speculation that your knee angulation issues may have been accentuated by time spent on a flat hill doing slow skiing.   That's a prime example of where knee angulation comes in handy, and is also easier to get away with when it's not really needed.  Another place it comes in handy is at turn initiation, to get some turn forces establish for hip angulation to work against.  

 

I have a long leg short leg progression that works pretty well for learning to extend the outside leg while exploring high edge angles.  Not sure if I can explain it clearly with no pics, but I'll give it a go.  

 

Begin with an exaggerated wide stance.  Not as wide as in the gorilla drill, but a bit wider than your normal wide stance.  Begin in a straight run down the falline, then progressively flex one leg deeply while keeping the other fully extended.  Tip the knee of the leg you're flexing into the turn as you flex it.  And try to keep your shoulders perfectly level to the snow as you flex.  Turn about 60 degrees out of the falline then simultaneously flex and tip your extended leg as you extend your flexed leg.  You'll feel your hips cross laterally over your skis and into the new turn, and your skis flip onto their opposite edges.  Your hip should cross over on a rather straight line, staying low to the snow, and your shoulders should remain level to the snow as they cross.  Make sure to get your new outside leg fully extended early in each turn, and flex the new inside leg deeply. You'll feel a very distinct long leg / short leg change through each transition.  

 

The drill works because the wider stance requires deeper inside leg flexion early in the turn, and that provides a very clear long leg / short leg sensation.  Once you get a good feel for, and comfort with, extending the outside leg, narrow the stance to a more normal width, while maintaining the same outside leg extension.  

 

By hip angulation I mean countering (drive your inside hip forward) and flexing forward at the waist, with a little lateral flex at the waist mixed in.  Counter results in some rotation of the hip about the balls. of the femurs.  Lateral flexion at the waist has limited range of motion, and limited angulation outcome.  You've got to get counter into the game to be truly effective in staying balanced on your outside ski as edge angles grow, and speeds become slower.  

 

This long leg / short leg teaching progression will be one of the many drills shown in great detail in my next DVD, which I'm working on now.  It should be out in the fall.  PM me if you'd like to be put on a "notify when ready" list.  Sometimes actually seeing it is easier.

 

www.YourSkiCoach.com

post #9 of 9
Thread Starter 

I think I am done doing this at least on my outside leg, this an updated video

 

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