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in the back seat too much

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
im relatively new to the sport, would consider myself early intermediate.

The biggest problem i have, or so im told, is that i put my weight too far back ... this is despite efforts to put it forward .. i find i cant push my knee's any further forward as the resistance from the boot (rental.) is too great.

I also tend to steer with my shoulders (truck driving!) but i know how to fix that, just need to force myself and really concentrate on using the hips ... typically i get tired and lazy then it gets sloppy

With my turns, I am finding i need to be quite fast in initiating a turn (big Z's down the hill rather than S's) ... any tips on smoothing out the turning process? .. ive been concentrating on trying to use edges rather than sliding .. again practice makes perfect i suppose

some pictures and videos of me skiing are at http://darb.net/hotham-2003 (name is brad, not dave or any other skiers mentioned
post #2 of 24
I'll leave this to the experts as there are many things that make people get in the back seat such as technique and equipment.

But it looks like your hips are too far back which puts you out of balance right away.

I bet your legs get tired pretty quickly on uneven conditions.
post #3 of 24
If that video of you really is your second day ever then you are on the right track.

[img]smile.gif[/img]
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
nah thats my mates second day, his name is 'dave' [img]smile.gif[/img]

its about my 12th day on the skis ("brad")
post #5 of 24
Hello Stranger.
post #6 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Bugski:
Hello Stranger.
allo allo!

how are ya bugski [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #7 of 24
Take a lesson with an instructor who attuned to your "body mechanics" and movement patterns.

Stick with easy runs well into your "comfort zone" till these movement patterns are well established.

Having the instructor ski behind you and "kick butt" .... the "drill instructor approach" (command style teaching), sounds like it's in order. It sounds like you are in the defensive mode and need to start skiing arcs in the fall line with proper body projection.
post #8 of 24
Brad,

It seems you may have a misconception about how to go about getting your weight more forward.

i find i cant push my knee's any further forward as the resistance from the boot (rental.) is too great

Instead of trying to push your knees forward by bending your ankles more, think about moving your center of mass (hips-belly button area) forward. And not just forward, but diagonally into the turn you are transitioning into.

To smooth out your turn shape, go to a really easy groomed slope and try to make the biggest, roundest, C-shaped turns you can. I mean huge -- take up as much of the width of the slope as you can. Low traffic areas are best for this. [img]smile.gif[/img] Maybe find someone who is making big round turns and follow in their tracks. When you can do it in a giant turn, try it with slightly smaller and smaller radii. Another drill you could do is to leave your poles at the bottom and ski with your hands behind your head; that'll help move your hips forward.

And lastly, I'll echo everyone else's advice to take a lesson. Tell the instructor (even if it's a group lesson) that you want to work on rounding out your turns and getting your weight forward.

HTH
Sue
post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
hi sue, thanks for the advice

i do bend at the ankles aswell but i find i am pushing into the fronts of the boot as hard as i can, but still being told im too far back. (if i tried any harder id snap a shin, or snap the boot buckles!)

I will try the things you have mentioned too [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #10 of 24
it is driving your shins forward that is aggravating the problem.

I'm getting more and more convinced "stance" issues are related to being;

1) over-terrained
2) inefficient steering ability

move the feet/legs well (tip, turn, or tip&turn) and many stance issues melt away.

first of all stand up

as you do so, note your tib/fibs/knees moving back....they are not being driven forward.
post #11 of 24
Forget about the shins for a moment, and instead focus on keeping your upper body forward (but not bent over). You might want to try keeping your arms/hands out in front as a start, it will help keep you forward and balanced. Also, try incorporating pole plants into your technique if you haven't already. By reaching out to "find" the next turn, you will automatically keep your body forward. Finally, make sure you are looking ahead down the hill and not down at your skis. This will help you maintain posture. These are all little nit picks, but they will help you stay out of the back seat. Ideally, you want your body to be centered and relaxed.

Good luck!

Craig
post #12 of 24
Brad,

Sue and Rusty have given you very good advice.

There are 3 joints that come into play here, ankles, knees and hip. Bending the ankle and hip will move your weight forward, bending the knees will move your weight back.

When Rusty suggests you stand up he's talking about straightening the knee. He's directed you to the key means of getting forward.

Stand up right now and slightly flex your ankles and hip, then without changing that ankle and hip flexion straighten your knees and I'll give you a nickel if you don't fall on your nose.

Now get up off the floor and while keeping ankle and hip flexion constant vary flexion in the knee. Feel how easily you can move pressure in your feet from heal to toes by changing the amount of flexion in the knee?

Fore/aft balance is really that simple.

Back off on the ankle flexing, the answer is in the knee. Too much flex in the ankle just adds to the problem, it requires extra knee bend to compensate for it and that puts the hips behind the feet.

And not only will extending the knee move your weight forward, it will make skiing much less work.
post #13 of 24
darb.net Rusty and Fastman have given good advice. I would only add that it takes some training of you're mucles to be able to flex the ankle and extend the knee at the same time.

When we walk, we extend the ankle and knee together and this will be you're normal reaction. You may have to lift the foot towards the shin in order to keep from extending the ankle with the knee.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
When we walk, we extend the ankle and knee together and this will be you're normal reaction. You may have to lift the foot towards the shin in order to keep from extending the ankle with the knee.
Darb

I agree as well that Rusty and Fastman have given some good advice. Also, follow Pierre's advice of lifting the foot towards the shin as this will help you get this accomplished and gain a feel for this movement.

Finally, check out this thread and pay attention to Pierre's posts describing this movement. This instruction greatly helped my skiing and I think it would give you a clear picture of the advice being given here.
post #15 of 24
Bending the knees to get forward is, in my opinion, one of the biggest misconceptions in skiing. And...I have to admit that for whatever reason, at least early on, that I made this error as well. How do so many of us get caught up in this trap? It's real easy to correct and almost automatic once you get sound guidance. Now that I know better, I cringe when I here people shout "bend your knees more" as the lone advice as to a skiers stance.
post #16 of 24
Back in the early seventies when I was beginning to ski, I still remember those instructors with their oh so authentic Austrian accents yell, "bend zee knees!! Bend zee knees!!!". That was the worst piece of advice I have ever received, and one that probably held me back for many years.
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by josseph:
"bend zee knees!!.
That wa the only English they spoke, as I recall, although they seemed to understand discussions about going to the bar [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by darb.net:
hi sue, thanks for the advice

i do bend at the ankles aswell but i find i am pushing into the fronts of the boot as hard as i can, but still being told im too far back. (if i tried any harder id snap a shin, or snap the boot buckles!)

I will try the things you have mentioned too [img]smile.gif[/img]
I think you may have misunderstood me. I said that you are currently bending (flexing) your knees and ankles too much -- instead, move your hips forward. This will necessitate, as others have pointed out, that you straighten (extend) your knees somewhat. Bob Barnes says flexing the ankles is overrated in this thread.

Hope that's clearer.
Sue
post #19 of 24
SueBrown

does it help at all thinking in terms of pulling the feet back under the hips rather than getting the hips forward? Clearly it also helps if the hips are in a slightly forward position anyway, the old 'hold the bus ticket' with glutes routine. What you say about knees is interesting -I have just spent some time trying to increase the forward flex of my boots which may be increasing knee flex. Isn't boot flex important?
post #20 of 24
I got two incredibly excellent pieces of advice during a lesson at Winter Park last year. One was simply to eliminate much of the tip lead I was showing - that helped immensely, but it's irrelevant here, I think.

The other tip was great as well, and I'll quote the instructor,
"Step up to the urinal, and don't dribble"

Try thinking in those terms as you move into a turn, and it WILL help get your hips forward.

I'd bet $5 American that you're doing exactly what I tend to do: by trying to 'flex' and 'get forward', we actually just hunch over at the waist with our knees bent, and end up nose over tips, but with center of (m)ass actually further behind the feet.

Like the other responders said, don't get hung up on what your knees and ankles are doing, and don't fool yourself about where your CM is.
post #21 of 24
That's a good one.

I'll have to remember that for newbie friends in the backseat.
post #22 of 24
Firstly, you are doing well! I won't touch much on the back seat.

Other points:

You've got your whole body rotating to twist the skis. Try to extend and pivot while keeping the upper body quiet. Arms wide apart, and a infront to start, say 45 degrees from the plane of your chest will help limit upper body rotation. Think "Reach for the snow" with your legs when you extend! It does not take a big pivot to have a steering effect. Be patient, the skis will turn.

While doing this, be so far forwards that when you drag poles the baskets remain infront of your heels. It's an easy measurement you can do for yourself. It's actually a drill to get you forwards.

You are flexed in one static position throughout the turn. As you go through the turn, you should be flexing lower, being lowest at completion, just before you cross the fall line. Then extend and pivot to initiate the next turn.

But first, let a bit of a traverse take place! This will help you organize the upper body to be forwards on the skis again, in case you got a bit back in the turn.

You need to apply a more edge in the turn to stop alot of skidding. This can be done by inclination or "banking" the body into the turn. Stay forwards when you do this. Imagine running on a banked track as your body tilts into the turn, and forwards. Now think the skis are the track.

Keep more weight on the outside ski, than the inside. Inclination by itself can make the weight go too much onto the inside ski. If that happens, try the same inclination with the legs, but keep the upper body vertical -- that's angulation, and it works. You don't need a lot of it to make a big difference.

Remain supple, to allow the tail of the ski to follow the tip. Think about going for a ride balanced on top of the ski. Pressing out with the leg will smear the turn -- skiing is not skating. Flexing instead of pressing outwards will limit the smearing.

Hope this helps!

As always, if anything here is bogus, please advise!
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by daslider:
SueBrown

does it help at all thinking in terms of pulling the feet back under the hips rather than getting the hips forward? Clearly it also helps if the hips are in a slightly forward position anyway, the old 'hold the bus ticket' with glutes routine.
You're right, daslider, pulling the feet back under the hips is another great way to think about it.

Quote:
What you say about knees is interesting -I have just spent some time trying to increase the forward flex of my boots which may be increasing knee flex. Isn't boot flex important?
Did you read the Bob Barnes post I linked to? I'm not really sure what my personal opinion is yet, but he seems pretty damn smart about skiing, so he may be right. I do think what he's saying deviates from PSIA standards, but that only matters during an exam. [img]smile.gif[/img] But my point was that Brad sounded like he was trying to flex his ankles and knees as hard as he could, but that's actually counter-productive to getting the hips balanced over the feet. Skiing's not supposed to be such hard work. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thankyou very much for the valuable advice people ... most of it makes sense and i can visualize what is said.

I think ill stick to some easier runs and work on the technique ... i generally started throwing myself down harder runs because i love going fast ... but im starting to care more for fixing my technique.

Ive found group lessons to be a waste of time, might try for a few private lessons if the $$ permits.

Thanks again,

brad.
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