Young Skier Fatal Accidents Seem to be Increasing, numbers? Teaching? Equipment?

Given what I have seen at our local hill with regards to school trips, it boils down to too many kids, too little supervision, too little maturity.

They take a busload or two of 10-16 year old kids, with too few parents/teachers, of widely varying skills from not-at-all to racers and basically "let them loose" on the hill. The hills are too big to effectively supervise them, and quite frankly most of the chaperones simply don't care - they come up to ski themselves and ignore the kids. Kids will be kids and a lot of them just aren't mature enough to handle unsupervised situations, especially when they get into peer groups. And while my guy (11) can ski circles around most adults I am still hesitant to let him into this kind of environment because he is, well, 11 years old and doesn't always show the best judgement in these situations (even though he knows better)

It's a numbers game. Sooner or later there is going to be an accident, and of those accidents, a (very) small percentage has the potential to be serious, or in even smaller percentages, be fatal. However, I don't believe that there is any cause for alarm. While truly tragic, and in no way dimishes the gravity of the incident, this represents a very small number compared to overall skier numbers. Everything has an inherent risk with it, and there is no way to completely remove it. Skiing is no different than taking kids ice skating, sledding etc. There is an element of speed, and where there is speed there will be collisions with animate and inanimate objects.

I don't think so (on the new skis/ teaching point).

I've got to disagree with you that anyone is "teaching snow-plowers to get on edge and carve clean fast turns." The portion of people on the hill who are carving clean fast turns is probably on the order of 5%, and none of them are beginners. Anybody who skis in a wedge has "sliding" skills. Maybe not very good sliding skills ... but such has always been the case, and has everything to do with the eternal inherent weirdness of moving around while standing on very slippery boards, and not much to do with anything else.

The biggest problem, at least for school-age kids, is simply being too daring. This is also an eternal inherent problem that's built into the adolescent mind (particularly the male one, at least when it comes to physical daring). Inability to evaluate ultimate consequences "in the moment" wasn't invented by ski designers or ski instructors.

As for whether the rate of fatal accidents is changing: lots of things "seem" to be the case, but aren't, particularly when we're talking about rare events. There are actual statistics on the rate of fatal accidents, though you'd have to analyze them a bit to find the numbers relevant to your issues. For example, you need to make sure to take out avalanche and NARSID deaths, which "seem" (anyway) to be much more common than adolescent-speed deaths.

As for measures like the "stickers for lifts" system you mention, I haven't noticed that in effect at any area I've skied at in recent years ... though I'm pretty sure I've never skied at any area that had such a system, going back to the mid '60s (when I would have certainly been aware of it, being myself subject to its strictures).

If anything, the areas I'm familar with have moved the other way, i.e. toward safety measures. Not enormously strict ones, but things like: more ropes and warning signs on the hill, more informative run signage ("No easy way down ... REALLY"), more grooming on runs generally, reshaping of runs with bulldozers to eliminate weird terrain and create very manageable cat tracks and roads, lots more (and lots bigger) "slow" signs, patrolmen specifically assigned to speed control, etc.

I am the organizer of a ski program at a little local private school.  We have an average of 14-20 students on each of our ski days.

I have had parents call me at home to complain that "jr" was stuck on the bunny hill because I wouldn't let him go on the chair.

Well, Jr couldn't link three turns or do a controlled stop.

To be clear, I get a great deal of pleasure knowing that I have exposed these kids to the sport I love, and I do enjoy spending time with these kids, but my days with these students rarely contains much "pleasure skiing" for me.

I can't imagine how a school with a busload of kids can keep track of them or maintain any kind of order.

The past couple of posts actually support my first one, in that I don't think that the instruction from a skiing perspective is any less than it used to be, in fact it is likely better, along with better equipment.

We do live in an age of fewer behavioral boundaries, and less respect for any boundaries that are put in place, and less "enforcement" of boundaries. Take a group of people, who aren't mature enough to, or  simply don't follow rules (or common sense) and are not made to abide by them, you are bound to create an enviroment that is essentially, out of control, where bad things can happen. We have created a society that is too afraid to tell little Johnny/Jill to behave, in this case ski/board within your limits.

All that being said, I would never wish that any kind of physical rec program be cancelled or cut back, nor would I want to see it so encumbered by rules and regulations that it becomes no longer fun to participate.

Speed brakes

someone needs to design a system that releases the ski's breaks when the kids excead the predetermined "safe" speed. 10,15,20 errrrkkkk the brakes deploy and ya fall flat on your face WACK. Next time you do linked turns and keep the speed down, oh wait ,better yet ..the kids have to take the equipment back into the rental shop to have the breaks reset!!. Man I love the freedom of skiing. I sure hope Lady Salina doesn't put the brakes on my skis

Lady_Salina,  Sadly, I agree with you that the injury/fatality rate is up, or at least seems to be up, this year.

I can only imagine that there are many things that come in to play, most of which you have touched upon.

One thing is that there is not structure in this type of program through the public school where someone makes sure that kids are getting lesson's if needed

There should be enough chaperones on the hill to give the students the idea that someone is paying attention.  As it stands, they have a free for all because they know that all the adults are in the lodge.

This is just MHO.

In some of the ski clubs in Buffalo and surrounding areas, a lesson is a requirement upon every visit with the school group. After the lesson the kids are free to go off and do whatever it is that kids do (usually raise hell until they have to leave), but at least the ski area and school programs are making the effort to keep the kids and other people on the mountain safe. Of course, all accidents cannot be prevented. At the end of the day, skiing is a dangerous sport and unfortunately 100% of accidents cannot be prevented. Even I sent myself into the trees a few weeks ago (a crash in which I was very lucky in), so lessons and increased abilities won't be the factor that eliminates fatalities and serious injuries.

I believe that shaped skis are partially to blame.

A) Shaped skis shorten the learning curve so beginners progress faster and are able to ski more advanced terrain with fewer hours of experience. More speed and steep with less actual experience learning different snow conditions, lighting/depth perception, etc..

B) Shapes skis are less forgiving when someone hooks an edge.  Hooking an edge results in a much more dramatic change of direction due to the tighter radiuses that these skis carve.  Hook an edge at high speed and you can be sent off course much more so than in the past using straight skis.  Last month I was riding a chair over the run the junior racing team was training on.  They were taking down the gates and slipping the hill.  I was watching one of the coaches cruise down carving nice big GS arcs and looking really good considering he didn't have any poles.  I assumed he was going to grab one of the piles of poles on the hill.  He caught an edge exiting a turn (outside edge of inside ski ) and went straight left in to the woods instead of right where he was about to turn before he hooked the edge.  He fell and tried to self arrest as he skidded in to the woods but got hurt pretty bad hitting some rocks-head first but wearing a helmet.  If he hadn't fallen and kept trying to fight back  on his other ski he probably would have smacked a tree in the woods.  I think he broke a collar bone based on the way they put his arm in a sling  and wrapped it tight against his torso before the toboggan ride  That same scenario on a old straight ski wouldn't have sent him so far left so quickly.

I'm not saying to go back to straight skis.  I'm just saying a better turning tool can be a bad thing when it hooks and sends you going the other way

It's stupidity and lack of respect for the mountain, no amount of instruction can fix that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeroGravity 

 

The past couple of posts actually support my first one, in that I don't think that the instruction from a skiing perspective is any less than it used to be, in fact it is likely better, along with better equipment.

 

We do live in an age of fewer behavioral boundaries, and less respect for any boundaries that are put in place, and less "enforcement" of boundaries. Take a group of people, who aren't mature enough to, or  simply don't follow rules (or common sense) and are not made to abide by them, you are bound to create an enviroment that is essentially, out of control, where bad things can happen. We have created a society that is too afraid to tell little Johnny/Jill to behave, in this case ski/board within your limits.

 

All that being said, I would never wish that any kind of physical rec program be cancelled or cut back, nor would I want to see it so encumbered by rules and regulations that it becomes no longer fun to participate.

Sadly, it's too late for that.

I've been really curious about some of these incidents, especially some of the recent ones in Southern Ontario - like the 13 year old skier who died on the bunny hill.

I think it's awfully disrespectful to say that these deaths are a result of stupidity - the 16 year old girl killed at blue mountain was supposed to be an A+ student, and an athlete....  Perhaps she was out of her depth..and eventually out of control, but I think the question is how did she get into that situation?

If these class trips are anything like the ones I used to do, the first part of the day on the mountain is with lessons targetted at your ability level.  That said, they were often in large groups...and those who got the hang of it were allowed onto the whole mountain, and those who didn't confined to the bunny hill - though clearly even the bunny hill can be fatal.  After the first hour or two lesson though... we'd never see the instructors again.

If I were to guess... I would guess that the students aren't receiving enough instruction and/or supervision.  I know it's difficult to supervise large groups of kids, but they receive such supervision during a regular PE/gym class, so I wonder why they can't get that in a much more dangerous environment.  I would hope that there are enough supervisors - be they teachers, parents, ski instructors or patrollers to monitor every run the kids are allowed onto...and pull anyone to the side that is out of their depths.  It might seem a bit unreasonable to have that level of supervision, but nothing less would be expected at school.

Crowded slopes.

Skis that can't handle speed.

Skis that wobble when going straight at anything more than a crawl and must be put on edge to be stable at speed.

I remember watching a young girl (about 7) on the bottom part of our mini hill in Sudsbury.  She did her best, trying not to fall over.  Her shaped skis kept trying to turn right-left-right-left, and set up a viscious wobble.  It was all she could do to try and keep them straight, hoping to slow down  at the runout.  She crashed into a hole in the soft snow by the lift fence.  Had she only known that getting those skis up on edge would have solved her problem she might have been ok, but she didn't know.  In the old days, at least the straight skis would have gone straight and smooth until she recovered enough to do something other than hang on.  The wobble set up by the flat-on-the-snow shaped skis really was beyond her control.

With so many people on the slope due to high capacity lifts, the trails are too crowded for people to turn where they want to to slow down.  Sometimes they end up going faster than they want to, and once going faster they are less able to turn where they want to.  It's another viscious circle.

As to supervision.  Yes the kids on school trips are not "supervised", but at 13 years old, you would expect that they don't need someone with them 24-7.  I would certainly let my 13 year old ski on his own.

I blame it on Ski and snowboard porn.  Kids see their Hero's doing amazing things and get the idea they can also be a "star" without doing the necessary prep work.

I'm evidently from a different society / culture / country or something.

When I was a kid ('60s - '70s), there was much less supervision, safety equipment, rules, structure, etc. Not just in skiing, but in all sorts of activities. We used to disappear on our bikes for entire afternoons; careen Stingrays through the woods with nary an adult in sight; play tackle football without pads; do inverted aerials on skis (okay, I didn't personally do inverted aerials, but my less cautious friends did); run downhills at age 12 without B-netting and wearing half-helmets that were manufactured for motorcycling; and jump off high dives (officially sanctioned or otherwise) that were way too high. Not to mention climbing around unrestrained in station wagons with metal dashboards.

I just completed my second year as a club organizer for the after school program.  There were 44 kids in the program this year.  The advantage I have over most school programs is I don't set up transportation.  If you want your kid to ski, bring them.  I know that isn't possible for everyone but it works great for my group.

To go on the lift or any where but the bunny hill and magic carpet takes parents permission.  If the parent isn't sure of the kids abilities, I or one of the other chaperones take them out and see what they can do.  The parents like me more than the kids do because: kid -"I want to go in the glades."  me- "I don't care and your not ready.  Now stay on the trail and catch the group before I put you in the lodge for the rest of the night."  It helps that I was in the Marines for 20 years and have tons of experience dealing with juvenile behavior!

I made a listing of the parents willing to chaperone and what they are comfortable with.  There were so many parents out there that I don't think we ever had more than 5 kids per parent.

It's a 6 week program (once a week) and the only kids not taking lessons are the older ones that have been ski/boarding for a while. 

However, there were still lots of close calls.  Most of them seemed to be unsupervised kids (not from my group) or older kids that were out of control and showing off.  Kids that don't know will stop at the mouth of a small merging trail and a pack of teenager will blast through too fast with a lot less room than they thought would be there.  I'll let my 17 y/o son out on his own but my 11 y/o daughter stays with me.  We'll go wherever she wants but I run interference.  150# kid plowing into her 65# body at speed would be devastating. 

The terrain park is the most dangerous.  Not so much because of the features but the knuckleheads not knowing the code and shouldn't be in there to start with.  I see little kids cutting through on the downhill blind side of a jump and an older kids (without a spotter) heading to the jump.  All I can think is "where are your parents?"  Look ahead and there's the parent infront of the kids cutting through the terrain park!

It's always gotten me why you have to be certified to go SCUBA diving but not skiing.  Maybe that's why so fewer accidents happen while on SCUBA.  What would it really take for the mountain to not issue lift tickets until you took a safety class from any mountain.  I have to show my SCUBA cert to get my air tank filled.  Have to take a motorcycle safety course and demo to get a motorcycle license.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay31 

 

I've been really curious about some of these incidents, especially some of the recent ones in Southern Ontario - like the 13 year old skier who died on the bunny hill.

 

I think it's awfully disrespectful to say that these deaths are a result of stupidity - the 16 year old girl killed at blue mountain was supposed to be an A+ student, and an athlete....  Perhaps she was out of her depth..and eventually out of control, but I think the question is how did she get into that situation?

 

If these class trips are anything like the ones I used to do, the first part of the day on the mountain is with lessons targetted at your ability level.  That said, they were often in large groups...and those who got the hang of it were allowed onto the whole mountain, and those who didn't confined to the bunny hill - though clearly even the bunny hill can be fatal.  After the first hour or two lesson though... we'd never see the instructors again.

 

If I were to guess... I would guess that the students aren't receiving enough instruction and/or supervision.  I know it's difficult to supervise large groups of kids, but they receive such supervision during a regular PE/gym class, so I wonder why they can't get that in a much more dangerous environment.  I would hope that there are enough supervisors - be they teachers, parents, ski instructors or patrollers to monitor every run the kids are allowed onto...and pull anyone to the side that is out of their depths.  It might seem a bit unreasonable to have that level of supervision, but nothing less would be expected at school.

 

Grades in school have nothing to do with how smart you are. It may be disrespectful, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjjohnston 

 

I'm evidently from a different society / culture / country or something.

 

When I was a kid ('60s - '70s), there was much less supervision, safety equipment, rules, structure, etc. Not just in skiing, but in all sorts of activities. We used to disappear on our bikes for entire afternoons; careen Stingrays through the woods with nary an adult in sight; play tackle football without pads; do inverted aerials on skis (okay, I didn't personally do inverted aerials, but my less cautious friends did); run downhills at age 12 without B-netting and wearing half-helmets that were manufactured for motorcycling; and jump off high dives (officially sanctioned or otherwise) that were way too high. Not to mention climbing around unrestrained in station wagons with metal dashboards.

I think that is the reason this is a problem now, this generation of kids never get to push their limits and learn what they are and aren't capable of.

I think one factor is whether or not the kid is afraid of getting hurt, the kid that is out of control and heading straight for a tree has to make a descision. Do they try to ride it out, or do they bail and eat shit? The kid less afraid of being hurt will probably just bail, the kid afraid of getting hurt bailing will hit the tree.

Are ski injuries increasing?

You make the call:

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/press/0506/facts-about-skiing-and-snowboarding.asp

http://www.ski-injury.com/intro (the fatalities section has some US info)

Ah lawyers, you gotta love 'em

http://www.skilaw.com/article-begin-experts.html#deaths

Seems like they think that beginner women skiers are >10 times more accident prone than experienced male skiers. This site would leave one to believe that injury rates have been relatively steady, but what do lawyers know?

The facts are:

- The number and rate of skier fatalities is so low, it's a non issue.

- Fatalities related to the behavior that's the topic of this thread are even lower.The statistics presumably include, in skier fatalaties, avalanche and NARSID deaths, which are irrelevant to the topic of this thread, I think.

- I don't see anything that remotely suggests that shaped skis, ski instruction standards, supervision of ski group or the like have resulted in increased injury rates. There's actually some statistics that suggest the exact opposite.

My guess is there are more skiers on shaped skis than non-shaped skis.

I ski faster than ever on my shaped skis than I would have years ago on non-shaped.

Also true is I ski faster on perfectly groomed trails - trails probably weren't so perfectly groomed

years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lady_Salina 

 

Each morning we had a ski off to hand out stickers based on the level we witnessed in that ski off.  Then those that didn't earn a sticker went for a beginner class to earn a sticker to the beginner lift, the beginner lift kids went for a class to earn a sticker for the intermediate lifts (and so on) and only the experienced skiers received a sticker for the one most advanced list at the resort. 

The sticker system is still in use in S. Ont. areas for school groups and for GP beginner packages.

Instructors give a sticker after a basic evaluation.  The lifties do pay attention, and do send kids away if they try to get on the "big chairs" with a beginner-only sticker. Only 2 levels though -- beginners and everyone else, so maybe not as finely tuned as the system you worked with in the past.

Of the changes to sking since back in the day that might lead to increased accidents, I think grooming is a liklier candidate than shaped skis.  If they didn't flatten everything out, only people who could ski would be able to go fast.

No Corduroy!

Think about this one...

What about the explosion of "ski programs" which have no instruction element but simply provide transportation to the Mt.  Skiing used to be a family sport.  However, now it is often about strangers babysitting and checking names on a clipboard on and off the bus.

As for a trip coordinator supervising a busload of teenagers...  Right - give me a break.  They throw on their size XXXL pants, hoodie and drug helmet.  Two seconds off the bus / lift they are long gone and Bode Miller could not catch 'em.  They hit the woods for a quick safety meeting and then hit the park.

Want fewer injuries / fatalities?  Take your OWN kids skiing.  Give them some instruction yourself or take a lesson WITH them.  Teach them the "rules" and don't let them act like wild a-holes with their "friends."  Take some personal responsibility and don't leave your kids safety up to the Mt, the trip supervisor, or the lawyers.