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Bent leg/stacked leg

post #1 of 7
Thread Starter 





Reilly had raised the question of whether a deeply flexed bent leg or a fairly straight stacked leg was stronger.  The stacked leg is, of course.  That's why people who practice the "release that dare not (on Epic) speak its name" get forward and allow the outside leg to straighten towards the second half of the turn where forces build.  The two videos up above I think capture the mechanics and timing well.  Maybe Zahrobska andByggmark are considered too controversial for Epic, we'll see. 


I totally agree with the point about pressuring the boot tongues, made in the McNichols and Miller video Reilly linked.  Getting forward in the second half of the turn does not preclude a certain type of release earlier on.  The video talks in terms of staying forward though, not getting forward: in the context of an instructional video this makes sense, but obviously Miller among others is quite often intentionally backseat, sometimes waaay backseat. 


Reilly made some very civil, good points, including on the need for versatility.  Too bad discussing the mechanics of skiers like Grandi and others with similar technique is so controversial due to the terrible politics on here.

post #2 of 7

All you have to do is focus on technique and leave the marketing labels/politics/emotion out of it and everything is fine.

post #3 of 7
Thread Starter 

No marketing in that other thread.  I can't even get into some sites currently, much less be accused of promoting them.  Politics?  Talking about the mechanics of skiing and riding can get political here, but mainly because things like pressuring the boot tongues or some releases are viewed as technique flaws by a lot of people here.  So, generally I no longer engage in those discussions.  Reilly had used some pictures of Grandi as well as another skier who 1) are much more similar than different in technique,  2) technique-wise both do a number of things that are considered flaws on here, and 3) are both undeniably good skiers.  So we had a good discussion.  Unusual for the web I think there was constructive communication, and nothing got marketed (I did compliment Reilly as an instructor, but I think everyone already knew he was good and I don't view that as marketing). 

post #4 of 7



Rush's audience doubled when he got attacked by members of that other party. We'd rather not support that business model (with anybody) either.


What I saw in those clips was retraction turns in the first clip and more crossover (with extension) type turns in the second. In the first clip I saw the straightest outside leg in the fall line (as opposed to straighter in the second half). So I'm not sure how this supports the theory.

post #5 of 7
Thread Starter 








As a result of past dialogues with you I've tried different things on the slopes.  For instance, out of a discussion with you and Shepherd Wong about getting off the lift I've ridden a snowboard completely flat in a straight line to see if I could do, ridden a tail and nose manual the same way, and even ridden switch judo with a flat board (it works but with a torsionally stiff board I suggest a gentle slope and room to roam).  In that spirit, let me suggest that you experiment with different turn shapes and reflect on where the load peaks for you in the turn.   For instance, you should be able with judicious use of terrain to even generate your max gs while travelling uphill.  I don't care what release or transition you use; simply reflect on where your max gs are in each turn.  Also use your ears to note what your edges are telling you on this point.  If you don't have people around you and feel comfortable doing so, even look to see at which point in the turn your skis throw the most snow.  To be real clear, note where on AVERAGE your skis throw the most snow:  if you go through a pile of snowgun sugar on transtion and then hit the loaded part of the turn on hardpack, obviously the snowthrow variance don't count.


Then, watch the Zahrobska video again. 1) Note where the snow shows up off her edges.  2) Reflect on the fact that she is racing, and trying to let the skis run as much as possible.  She ain't trying to do C shaped turns.  3)  Think where the max gs are in her turns.  We could have an angels on a pin theoretical discussion on the meaning of "second half" of a turn, but as someone who's ridden switch judo with learning in mind I'd ask that you not abuse my time nor your own that way.  If you agree, on reflection, that when the outside leg starts to bend again, edge angle backs off, and the skis stop throwing snow, that forces are diminishing, and that Zahrobska, or Ligety or Kostelic in the links in this post, is/are then entering a transition to the next turn, then arguing about whether the transition defines the beginning of the next turn or the end of the last become pointless anyway. 


Then preferably find some gates or set some pine cone gates and run them with a focus on not being late and trying to let the skis run.  Think again where YOUR peak loads are in that case.  They won't be when you're going across the hill.


It's not a theory, the forces are real, outside leg is relatively straight during the loaded part of a turn for a reason.  Actually the reason that Reilly stated, that biomechanically the straighter leg is much stronger when under load.  Pretty basic.


Now think about your ski instructor biases that caused you initially not to see this.   


As for Byggmark he's also demonstrating the same thing, but for me to break out where and how would take another paragraph. 


A note regarding Reilly's point as to versatility:  I am not saying that everyone should go out and try to ski like any of these three skiers.    There are drills that involve exagerrated movements that could be similar to what they're displaying, but very few poeple are going to have the ability to do what they do exactly the way they're doing in those videos.  If you put any of those 4 in bumps, they would not be sking eactly the same way themselves.  The Mill/McNichols video series Reilly linked has Miller in bumps in one segment and that's a good example of his basics staying the same but the specific expression of them varying for circumstances.


The reality is that no matter what you individually may learn from this about what's going on with racer's turns, including the shocking truth that they ski in a pretty biomechanically efficient way, the same old stuff will get repeated on here anyway.  Trust Lib Tech but don't trust the internet.

post #6 of 7



It's going to be close to 70 tomorrow. The only G forces I'm going to be pulling are "Gyyuckk!"


I was just observing the leg length issue. I did not intend to imply anything about G forces. I was thinking middle third instead of second half. It looks like we agree on that.

post #7 of 7
Thread Starter 

Cool, so it sounds like we agree that these skiers are utilizing varying degrees of a deeply flexed transition, and then getting forward and allowing the outside leg to straighten towards the "portion" of the turn (however defined) where forces build.  I'm completely ok with defining that portion as precisely 3/6th-4/6th of the turn if your vote is forces peak in the middle 3d, but check my math.  (Fun can be had if they DON"T successfully release and get forward, but that's a different story.)  "Bad" or "weak" tehcinque?  No.  The only way to ski even for sl? No (and actually "Keyser Soze," whoever he is, would use none of these 4 as a technique poster child -- I selected them to show the deeply flexed transition).


70 degrees?  Got in any golf yet?  It's actually a weekend of non-snow sports and ibuprofen for me out on the left coast but cooler, and I'd swap temps if I could. 





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