or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Technical analysis of PMTS  

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 

So, there has been a bit of a dabate about "PMTS" vs "the world wide organisations of ski instructing"...

So I have put together a fun little motage of HH and put together a montage of Thomas Grandi, and I will go through and disect in my opinion with what is wrong...

HH believes that an up motion should never be used...?

I would like to hear everyones opinions on this subject to... we can have a look at both images and see what you guys think too?

I have another analysis about active leg turning too which HH doesnt believe in either... but that will be in another topic if you guys like this one....

 

anyway here is the imageHarald Harb

So lets start off in the 1st frame...

What I see is a huge amount of knee angulation that is bad for the knee.... would everyone agree?

 

2nd. still a lot of knee ang, and very flexed for the crossover.

 

3rd. still very flexed... his old outside ski (new inside ski) has been lifted off the snow and we can see where his weight is from which part of his ski is in contact with the snow... the tail... back seat...

 

4th... moving into the new turn...

 

5th... I think that hes moved in to quick and the weight has transfered onto the inside ski which has made the outside ski run straight and started his skis to diverg...

 

6th... diverg is in full force... shoulders start to rotate around because the ski isnt coming around as fast as he wants....

 

7th... diverging still... fully rotated with his hip.... most of the weight on the inside ski and the knee anulation is starting to build...

 

8th... back and inside up the hill...

 

9th... because he thinks having an up motion is bad he kept his hips at the same level they were in the middle of the turn and look where they are? way way back seat...

 

10th... tips of skis inches off the snow.... hugely back seat....

 

Now lets look at a proper WC skier...

Thomas Grandi

So here is Grandi...

 

1st... At the turn initiation (old turn transition) super tall and stacked over the outside ski... no where near the back seat...

 

2nd... In a good stacked possition... long outside led with no knee angulation... no diverging skis...

 

3rd... Stacking and creating some angles... no knee angulation or hip rotation.... long strong outside leg which he is balanced over...

 

4th... maximum edge angle just after the fall line... a good amount of seperation has formed to help him create such big edge angles.... still no knee angulation or hip rotation...

 

5th... moving up nad forward onto the new outside ski... starting to extend...

 

6th... Fully extended and stacked over the outside ski... no where near the back seat... compared to Harb if we stuck a weight on grandis head he would be able to support it... Harb would be crushed under the weight being in such a bad back seat possition...

 

7th... long strong outside leg stacked over the outside ski... with good early edge...

 

8th... good strong edging in a stacked possition... no knee agulation or rotation of the hips...

 

 

 

So in conclusion to this... I know there are a lot of HH fans out there on this site... I just want to say that an extension retraction turn is a very usufull tool that all good skiers should have in their bag of tricks... and i know in WC racing many things happen down the course and a lot of different techniques are used (extension on transition, flexion on transition, scarved, spivoted, whatever you want to call it... and many other things)

 

But as you can see from these montages if you want to crank your skis over like WC skiers there has to be a recentering move, so a certain amount of up to get your hips over your feet... unlike HH... the back seat barry...

 

Knee angulation is also not the best on the knees... and is also a weak possition for your leg to support yourself... you can see grandi super strong over his outside ski and HH in a really weak possition... and he started to hip rotate and do all funky things in his skiing... which is conistent in his skiing all over the place...

 

In the end... A good skier should be able to do all the moves... up and down side to side... edge to edge... steer to steer... if you are a PMTS follower branch out a bit...

 

Have a good look at the images...

 

Lets have a good discussion about this...

post #2 of 36

 

post #3 of 36

Hmm, Reilly first I think you should consider cleaning up this post so that you make it more clear the point you are trying to make or the discussion you are trying to foster.  It comes across more like nit picking of a very fine 60 year old skier.

 

OLR vs ILE?  They are both perfectly legitimate transitions, both used throughout the WC by different folks.  What point are you trying to make?

 

As far as the knee angulation, you are not analyzing the montage correctly.  PMTS is all about initiating the turn with aggressive tipping of the new inside ski, precisely to avoid knee angulating moves to initiate with the BTE of the new outside ski(among other things).   HH has mentioned on his forums a few times that its possible to add a bit of knee angulation right at the end of the turn just before beginning to flex into the transition, as a means to tighten the turn a bit at the end.  Its an extremely advanced skill and I don't believe officially documented as part of the PMTS method.  It would make for an interesting discussion about whether that particular trick is useful, but does not represent the basis of the PMTS method.

 

I can't agree with you that an up move is ALWAYS needed.  OLR type transitions, which are what PMTS skiers deal with exclusively, can be done without any UP move, and though the montages show people at flat in a hips back position, at high speeds the skier is floating through that period very quickly and never experiencing weighted in the backseat balance.  Their COM flows through from one side of the edges to the other side.   However, many PMTS learners, I feel, struggle with staying out of the backseat while learning an OLR transition because they are doing it slowly enough that they are quite likely to fall into the backseat without super aggressive foot pullback, etc.   WC guys use OLR all the time and their montages would look similarly in the backseat.  Calling them "backseat barry" is probably not justified or appropriate.

 

It would be interesting to analyze to more depth HOW OLR skiers are able to gain their fore balance after passing through an OLR transition. 

 

The bottom line is that both types of transitions have their place.  There is value in both.  If you want to make the point that PMTS should be more open minded about certain skills, I agree with you, but let's not make the same dogmatic mistake of demonizing their OLR movements which are also perfectly legitimate.

 

 

post #4 of 36

I'm not interested in starting WW III or going to "band camp," so I'll stick to hard facts.  I'm dismayed to see this post by such a respected member of the skiing industry.  You're one of the very few whom I respect greatly

 

fact 1:  Mr. Harb has non-skiing-related knee injuries that are decades old.  His knees are exquisitely sensitive to misuse.  Your analysis of frame 1 is that he is engaging in massive knee angulation.  Hmmm.  I can see how one could intuit that from the 2-D projection of his body position -- the camera angle isn't very good for judging this specific issue.  And psychological studies show just how much we use our expectations to fill in the gaps in cases like this.  It looks like you're projecting your own skiing and knee angulation to interpret the photo.  But the gentleman's medical condition rules out this interpretation completely.  No ifs, ans, or buts.  Still true in frame 2.  Given your (understandable) misinterpretation of the beginning of his turn, it doesn't seem productive to address your analysis of the rest of his turn.

 

fact 2:  You're comparing a 60-year old to a recently retired (then unretired) world-cup athlete about half his age.  Heck, DINs are supposed to be turned down 1 by age 50 and this guy, when not in instructor mode, hangs with the very best on terrain almost nobody on epic could ever ski.  Few can accomplish that at any age, let alone 60.

 

I understand that a good friend of yours got dragged into the middle of an awkward thread on another forum and that this may have been embarassing.  I don't see how that's cause to retaliate.  Why not walk the high road and ask the mods to delete this thread.  The ball's in your court.

 

Respectfully yours,

 

sharpedges

 

 

PS not a hard fact, but I've got an eye for MA and I've seen this man ski several times in real-life 3-D, not 2-D photos.  Knee angulation just doesn't happen.

post #5 of 36

SharpEdges

Well done.

These matters tend to grow to greater proportions than WW11.

There are wide ranging positions held on various sites and absolutely

no reason to fan the flames of such a well documented controversy further.

 

LCS

 

 

post #6 of 36

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly View Post

 


In the end... A good skier should be able to do all the moves... up and down side to side... edge to edge... steer to steer... if you are a PMTS follower branch out a bit...

 

 

LOL

 

I definitely agree with looking around to find what works best for one.  As adults, we're all responsible for charting our destiny and it seems wise to consider all courses before selecting which to follow. 

 

Like the majority of PMTS adherents, I was a PSIA follower first.  That's a bit tricky since PSIA is such a large umbrella spanning so many variations.  Anyway, to borrow your phrase, I branched out a bit by picking up PMTS.  I haven't lost any of my old skills -- they're still tucked away in muscle memory.  But I very rarely use them because I found such a good match for me when I did branch out.  Others' mileage may vary.

 

Peace.

 

 

post #7 of 36

I wonder what people would say if I told them a PMTS instructor told me their business was making people look good on groomed blues.

post #8 of 36

 

Reilly and all - I am too tired to read this whole thread right now. All I will say for now is keep it civil.

post #9 of 36
Thread Starter 

where i was trying to go and which is what borntoski pointed out... was that I think there is many different skills outside of pmts that pmts dont use... I was comparing these two images because they are meant to be a similar turn.. pure carved medium.... but if the 60yr old skier is trying to save himself then what the WC guy is doing is better for the body....so why isnt he skiing like that?....

I was just trying to say that both are good turns.... as I stated in my first post, is that WC skiers use many different turns too... not just retracion....

so my direction of where I was going is that can you guys see the difference between the two montages? and is the WC skier a better skier at carving? and is he doing what HH says is bad? and if so why is thomas grandi a better skier?

my answers for all of those are... yes i can see a big difference... yes thomas is a much better skier.... and yes he is doing what HH says is bad.... and why is thomas a better skier? because he can do everything... this is the point that I was trying to make... and that is all....

.... but HH says its his way or the highway... which is what i disagree with... i dont disagree with stuff he teaches... i have seen his DVD's... he has good stuff... but there aint one way for everything... i just wanted to make a point that the best skiers in the world make more turns than his turns...

 

Hey and im sure what he teaches works... I just had a skier never skied before, started in a snowplough, end of the day skiing blue runs parallel, good edging... 3rd day doing jumps, and 180's... this way works too... whos to say that something doesnt work when it obviously does...

 

BTS. in answer to your knee angulation question... at the very top of the turn where the forces are pulling you down the hill, having knee angulation there, would there be less force on your knee than having knee angulation at the bottom of the turn where the forces are much greater if you are coming across the hill as much as him?

 

also I didnt say that an up move is always needed...where i was trying to go with that and i obviously miss typed what i was meant to be saying, a recentering move is always needed to get your hips over your feet in transition.... would you say that if Ted ligety in this pictureted ligety

were to do a retraction turn his bum would be on his tails? and if so, if somone were to have their hip like this on the snow every turn down a black groomer for them to not be in the back seat there would have to be a certain amount of up movement and projection forward??? and if they did do a retraction turn cranking the skis over like this that would put way to much force on your knees...

 

and in pointing out his medical history in the back seat as much as he is with his ski tips coming off the snow that puts a large amount of stress on the ligements in the knee would you not agree? so why is he there if his knees are bad?

 

I want to state this again... im not saying hes a bad skier... we are just comparing images... that is all...

 

and as Sharpedges im sure you go on HH forum... and you are amazed what i said about him? it seems like a bit of a contradiction dont you think when comparing what he says about everyone els???

 

Does anyone not like Teds skiing???

post #10 of 36

 

I believe that everyone is trying to achieve or teach what they believe is good skiing. I think that in most cases, at an elite level, the goals are very similar. A lot aren't going to like this, but even PMTS seems to have a similar goal. Good skiing is good skiing.

 

However, the road travelled to get to these goals are EXTREMELY different. Even though I may disagree with some other methods, I still take these into account hoping to learn how to teach people in more efficient ways. After reading what Harald Harb has written about other techniques and ideas, it would seem that he is lacking this trait. For this reason PMTS will always be at the will of one man, whether people feel he is right or wrong in his methods. The statement made by "Born to ski", that PMTS should be more open minded about certain skills" is right on the money. Not just PMTS, I think we could ALL be a little more opened minded. This is sad as we could all learn a great deal from each other.

 

Reilly's done a great job of patching those montages together and pictures surely dont lie. In the words of Harald Harb "Skiers who visit this forum should have the right to know why skiing works with some movements and why it doesn't work with others. Often or almost in every case skiers see a Demo Team member (watch them ski effectively) think such a person has all the answers, when in reality what they teach is totally different from how they ski." Well this being the case, i think Reilly is proving just that with photographic evidence.

 

Im not here to judge Reilly or Harald Harb. My opinion on this is that if PMTS dishes it out so easily, the organization and its members should be able to accept the same in return. Maybe if we all have a civil conversation about it, sharing our information, Somethings may cleared up??

 

 

 

 

post #11 of 36

SnowPlow, let me say this plain and simple.  I do not respect the way the PMTS crowd "dishes it out" and I was under the impression that this forum was going to try to be above that sort of vindictive behavior.

 

Reilly, I think you're upset because HH ripped on you on his forum.  Your reaction is to lash back here.  A while back the mods of this forum decided that was not going to be acceptable behavior here and I agree with them.  Even to the point that we have largely been unable to discuss PMTS theory here, neither productively nor destructively in order to avoid these kinds of discussions of hatred.

 

Not impressive mate.  Step up.  HH brings the whole community down with this kind of crap and we need to be above it.

 

Instead of just lashing back with more of the same kinds of vindictive balonie, why don't you stand up and answer his claims and questions, stand by your skiing and your thoughts on skiing.  

 

I for one would also like to know why you are endorsing the up unweighting so much.  Its not a criticism of your skiing, but a question about your method.  Please explain it.  Let's get back to talking about skiing instead of looking for errors in the skiing shown by videos and montages in order to discredit.

 

 


Edited by borntoski683 - 3/5/2009 at 07:59 am
post #12 of 36

 

Now...about skiing...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reilly View Post

 

BTS. in answer to your knee angulation question... at the very top of the turn where the forces are pulling you down the hill, having knee angulation there, would there be less force on your knee than having knee angulation at the bottom of the turn where the forces are much greater if you are coming across the hill as much as him?

 

 

 

Well for my part, it was not actually a question. I believe you are misinterpreting what you see in that montage. He is not using knee angulation at the apex where forces are generally greatest. Are you saying that you disagree that a bit of knee angulation can be used during turn completion to add a small bit of tightening right before going into transition?  

 

 

also I didnt say that an up move is always needed...where i was trying to go with that and i obviously miss typed what i was meant to be saying, a recentering move is always needed to get your hips over your feet in transition....

 

 

Hmm. Really? Would you say its possible to start out a short radius turn with some anticipation and have the skis pivot underneath you when you begin the next turn, placing you back into a fore position without any gut-pulling recenter movements? If its possible to do that with a pivot, do you think it might be possible to do something similar by getting aggressive early edge engagement and arcing the skis enough to recenter your CoM? Even if you do have to forcibly recenter to get fore, is upward movement necessary to do that? Is up-unweighting neccessary?

 

post #13 of 36

Some thoughts: Two different turns.

turn 1 Cross-under SL radius turn -  turn 2 Cross over GS turn

 

turn 1 CM released, but skis not quite released, but brought across  even more quickly with some small adjustment via rotation of femurs in hip socket while knees ahead of hips (knee angulation) but with knee not stressed because cm has been released.  -  both turns Body brought into  turn a bit more by pulling on inside half - turn 2 more pulling needed, less momentum or centrifugal force if you prefer available for repositioning cm in relation to skis in a timely fashion.

 

Skis diverge...Skis should be farther apart at the apex.  Turn 1 pobody's nerfect a little more on the inside ski than he intended, but good recovery to a slight over corection (see knee angulation above).  turn 2 I can't need to refer to the pics to refresh my memory now.  Damn the new format!

 

Grandi - skiing to make the particular turn at hand.

PMTS - skiing to make turns that others should practise to become good at making cross-under pure-carved SL radius turns. 

 

verbal warfare marketing BS  - Sad, just sad.

 

 

post #14 of 36

Ok, so I've been trained in a few different countries, by trainers from most of the bigger instructor associations, and my impression of the PSIA was that they really disliked any vertical movement/extension, in contrast to most of the others. It was hammered into us at Winter Park that retraction/cross under turns were the only turns you needed, (many of the trainers were current PSIA RM examiners). Then today through this thread I started reading some PMTS stuff, which denounces the PSIA (a lot, HH seems pretty bitter about something) as teaching vertical movement. This came to a shock to me as this was not my experience of the PSIA at all, the NZSIA encourages extension far more, in fact I changed my skiing a lot when I went there, then when I got back to WP, Bob Barnes did not like my turns at all!

 

So, is WP more PMTS than PSIA? or is PSIA RM different to the other divisions? Or have I just got myself confused!?

 

If anything, the experience of being trained to turn in different ways helped me, as I feel I can now do both pretty well. Surely versatility should be a goal of instruction/instructor training?

 

 

 

post #15 of 36

Internet tit for tat can be funny in its own way, but Reilly really should have chosen better for the first post.  First, Grandi is actually a very good example of "PMTS-style" skiing.  Harb uses him as an example often.  A number of aspects of Grandi's skiing have often been criticized by the talkingheads on this forum as a mistake, needless risk, or worse.  Once when I linked to a video of Grandi on here, a well-respected member of this forum asked why I was using a "has-been" as an example of technique.  Second, while I'm afraid that mentioning summer race camps or in-season training could get me banned on here, a deeply flexed transition is heavily emphasized these days.  Harb himself actually does not emphasize it more than others imo, and in fact has posted a good bit on his forum about the key not being the specific path the hips take (long pendulum, short highly bent pendulum) but the motor pattern of flexing the outside leg, some, to start the release.  Check it out.

 

Reilly, amusingly I believe my kid also had a really good group lesson with you when you were at Snowbird, with lasting impact on technique.  While she had no bad lessons that week (and G.M. (heli G) also gave a real good lesson) she commented even this season that the one lesson with you was where using the ski first started to click.  And while you wouldn't say you taughther PMTS, the mechanics were completely consistent.  And, if you weren't a Level III who's also bros with a few frequent posters here, the mechanics would get you driven off the forum if you advocated them.  Happened before.  Your old boss there has been criticized on this forum for his skiing (but probably would not have been if the people posting could recognize his very reconizable skiing, lol).  I think I caused an awkward pause by saying he could ski.

 

You're also a bit distinct on this forum in that inthe real world you're a real fine skier.  I think you know Harb is a ripping skier too.  There are very few posters on here who I personally find valuable.  Skifex's (hopefully remembered that right) posts for instance have been very profound but not that frequent.  Wish she would post more.  The common underpinning about these posters is that they 1) have the background and can rip, and 2) aren't being internet gamers.  Think about which type of poster you want to be.   If you just think Harb can rip but wish he wouldn't sometimes be a dick in criticizing others, come correct and just say that.  Or, go ahead with the boyscout stuff.

post #16 of 36

This is an interesting post!

 

HH was the Director of Training at Winter Park when Bob Barnes arrived.

 

Disclaimer: There are 2 BB in Colorado and we're not talking about the BB who frequently posts here.

 

WP BB is also an examiner and a former demo team member. It has oft been my contention that some of the teaching espoused by HH might have come from years working with other educators at WP, or while on the PSIA-RM ed staff, or the national demo team, or from his father, or other canadian skiers, or magazines, etc!. It's kind of a nature vs. nurture argument. Or did HH invent it all himself? The idea of putting a ski on edge. One day he just said let's tip a ski on edge and see what the heck happens!

 

I think it is a little simplistic to say all we do at WP is retraction turns! We do ski a lot of bumps and the way my knees feel this morning I could stand to absorg a little more or a little quicker!

post #17 of 36

Ok, perhaps its not all retraction turns at WP, but there is certainly not a lot of extension! And reading about PMTS, some of the movements I was taught (and that I now teach!) seem very like the HH stuff.

 

When you say that at WP you ski a lot of bumps, that is completely true, and that's probably why that retraction/cross under turn is so emphasised there, people also tend to ski with a narrower stance. In NZ, pretty much all they ski is ice, and they favour a turn with more extension with a wider stance. I'm not saying one is wrong or one is right, each has its benefits, that's what I dislike about PMTS, they seem to see things in a very black and white way.

 

How's WP going this year? Japan has been amazing, but I still miss Coffee and Tea every now and again!

post #18 of 36

What I find interesting about this thread is that PMTS is a banned topic on this forum.  It now seems that a thread trying to bash PMTS is ok, only those that support PMTS are verbotten.

post #19 of 36

<mod hat on>

We're watching.

 

It's not so much that PMTS is a banned topic. PMTS threads were getting out of control and we had good reason to believe that part of the problem was a concerted effort to promote the product. Since the volume of noise has been turned way down we're willing to see where this goes.

 

<mod hat off>

post #20 of 36

I tend to doubt if there was a thread praising PMTS that it would survive.

post #21 of 36


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post

 

I still miss Coffee and Tea every now and again!


 

"Coffee and Tea" is the best! 

post #22 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:

I for one would also like to know why you are endorsing the up unweighting so much.  Its not a criticism of your skiing, but a question about your method.  Please explain it.  Let's get back to talking about skiing instead of looking for errors in the skiing shown by videos and montages in order to discredit.

Actually Im not sure if you have read my post properly? I havent said that a retraction turn is bad at all... Infact I have said that it is a very usufull tool.... Read my post again... I said that in the end a good skier should be able to do all the moves.... up and down.... side to side.... edge to edge... steer to steer.... There is no need to acuse me of things that are untrue... Im endorsing a retraction move just as much as a active extension for recentering....

 

Quote: 
Well for my part, it was not actually a question. I believe you are misinterpreting what you see in that montage. He is not using knee angulation at the apex where forces are generally greatest. Are you saying that you disagree that a bit of knee angulation can be used during turn completion to add a small bit of tightening right before going into transition?

I am not disagreeing... I havent disagreed yet with that... I have just stated facts shown in the pictures, thats all... Heck I can show you a montage of me doing it.... it doesnt take away from the fact that its bad for my knee... I know it is... and it still happens.... I think that it can be a use full tool in skiing...

 

Quote:

Hmm. Really? Would you say its possible to start out a short radius turn with some anticipation and have the skis pivot underneath you when you begin the next turn, placing you back into a fore position without any gut-pulling recenter movements? If its possible to do that with a pivot, do you think it might be possible to do something similar by getting aggressive early edge engagement and arcing the skis enough to recenter your CoM? Even if you do have to forcibly recenter to get fore, is upward movement necessary to do that? Is up-unweighting neccessary?

I never said it was necessary....

 

Have a look at these photos....

 

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007-B/slides/raich-aare-2006-gs-2.html

 

Raich.... best technical WC skier around at the moment... Im actually saying that Im not trying to point out that an "up un weighting" move is necessary.... what I personally believe is that the CM has to rise from its lowest point at the gate in these photos... in order to get the hips over the feet to enter into the new turn the best way for their body to deal with the forces... I believe that Raich hasnt "un weighted" his skis... I think he has constant pressure over the skis all the time in these images, and personally I think that this turn he is doing is probably perfect and this is the kind of turn I wish to make... hes never back seat.... no knee angulation.... super strong and stacked... and you can see his CM rising higher off the snow from the gate to the transition... its night and day.... obviously I will say this again so you dont miss interprit what im saying... WC skiers do a lot of different moves... im not saying that this is the only turn to make... But what I do think is that this turn for me is the perfect turn as far as being in a good possition for your body... and as a technical discussion I believe this is a technique that I would support.... Which is contradictory to HH believes because the CM rises...

 

I personally think an "up unweighted turn" in a dynamic pure carved gs turn or SL turn is a bad thing... or should I say not the best thing... I think that the CM has to rise though, and I think that it can be done by keeping constant pressure on the ski all the time... as you can see with Raich... I think that in the transition, the rate of flexsion of the outside leg and the rate of extension of the inside leg (soon to be new outside leg) should be matched this way you can keep constant pressure on the ski at all times... and recenter yourself... does that make sence?

 

Quote:

but Reilly really should have chosen better for the first post.  First, Grandi is actually a very good example of "PMTS-style" skiing.

As far as the montages go its very different...

 

Quote:

Reilly, amusingly I believe my kid also had a really good group lesson with you when you were at Snowbird, with lasting impact on technique.  While she had no bad lessons that week (and G.M. (heli G) also gave a real good lesson) she commented even this season that the one lesson with you was where using the ski first started to click.  And while you wouldn't say you taughther PMTS, the mechanics were completely consistent.  And, if you weren't a Level III who's also bros with a few frequent posters here, the mechanics would get you driven off the forum if you advocated them.  Happened before.  Your old boss there has been criticized on this forum for his skiing (but probably would not have been if the people posting could recognize his very reconizable skiing, lol).  I think I caused an awkward pause by saying he could ski.

Well I hope that your kids had fun... In Aus one of our skiings skill tests in our exams is an extension retraction turn... I will say it again very usuful... Last time I checked that turn was being used in the 70's when bumps skiing became popular? and also edging the ski has been around a long time too... correct me if im wrong? and as far as good skiing goes I teach everything, that is basically the point to the thread.... Versatility in teaching methods... being able to have all the tricks in the bag to be able to teach them and demonstrate them...

 

In a big mtn skier, most of the really good guys (lets talk about Mark Abma for example) have a lot of upper body rotation, but heck it sure works when they are ripping down a peak in Alaska, hucking 80ft cliffs in sequence... That is probably not something that I would teach to a student on a bump run... deffinantly not that technique.... But i know of it and I can demonstrate it if I need too (not the 80ft cliff part)..

 

Quote:

You're also a bit distinct on this forum in that inthe real world you're a real fine skier.  I think you know Harb is a ripping skier too.

I do think he is a good skier.... I have said that... there is no denying it... but there is a big whole in his single technique... and that Is all i am pointing out...

 

And I appologise for saying back seat barry.... I should have just said he is in the back seat as you can see from his tips coming off the snow and where his hips are in relation to how flexed his legs are....

 

I also appologise for making it come across as un civil.... I hope this post will clear a few things up about what I believe good skiing is...

post #23 of 36

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly View Post

 

Actually Im not sure if you have read my post properly? I havent said that a retraction turn is bad at all... Infact I have said that it is a very usufull tool.... Read my post again... I said that in the end a good skier should be able to do all the moves.... up and down.... side to side.... edge to edge... steer to steer.... There is no need to acuse me of things that are untrue... Im endorsing a retraction move just as much as a active extension for recentering....

 

 

 

I think the purpose of both ILE and OLR moves are for transitioning the CoM from the inside of one turn into the inside of the next turn, not for recentering.  Recentering or remaining centered are also neccessary components of either concept since failure to do so will put the skier into the back seat in the next turn. 

 

 

 and as a technical discussion I believe this is a technique that I would support.... Which is contradictory to HH believes because the CM rises...

 

 

Yes, I happen to agree with you here. ILE has its place, when done properly. Interestingly, the second turn in that photo montage is more of an OLR than ILE transition if you ask me. Nice contrast.  If you would like to hear HH's analysis of this photo, why don't you ask him directly.  Those of us here can only speculate how he would analyze it.  

 

 

I personally think an "up unweighted turn" in a dynamic pure carved gs turn or SL turn is a bad thing... or should I say not the best thing... I think that the CM has to rise though, and I think that it can be done by keeping constant pressure on the ski all the time... as you can see with Raich... I think that in the transition, the rate of flexsion of the outside leg and the rate of extension of the inside leg (soon to be new outside leg) should be matched this way you can keep constant pressure on the ski at all times... and recenter yourself... does that make sence?

 

 

 

I understand what you are saying but don't agree 100%.  We have discussed this topic on this forum many times.  The CoM does not HAVE to rise.  I agree with you that blending OLR and ILE skills into one complex whole is probably what most of these star athletes are doing.  That is certainly what I try to do.  If the outside leg flexion is not aggresive enough, then the CoM will pendulum across instead of passing straight through, but that is by no means a requirement of every turn.  Here is the rub though.  If that star athlete is too aggresive about the inside leg extension, then a pop extension will occur and they will lose their connection.  The finese of touch by these guys is amazing.  Knowing when and how much to extend that new outside leg to avoid a pop or even becoming slightly unweighted, is an extreme level of skill.

 

I believe that HH avoids ILE moves and demonizes them because they are hard to teach.  Its easy to create pop tart monsters where that move will hurt their skiing more than help them.  I'm not saying I agree with his absolute demonization, I just want to put it into perspective.  PMTS does make this and and some other moves verboten.  If you ask yourself why that is, you'll realize its because it takes a high degree of skill to blend them into skiing and so he is just keeping that out of the method entirely.  (shrug).  Not a big deal if you ask me.  Learning skiers can't do everything and it makes some sense to give them movements and skills that will help them more than hurt them.    I agree with you though, I don't like the across-the-board villianization and dogmatic insistence that all turns by all skiers at all levels need to be OLR.

 

However, there is yet a third type of turn transition being demo'd by yourself and many others, and that is the turn where up-unweighting is clearing being used by intention, whether concious or sub-concious.  I see up-unweighting happening two ways.  One is when someone is intentionally trying to perform ILE, but doing so too aggresively and getting unwanted unweighting.  That is merely an error in performance, not an error of technique.  Its a matter of mastering their finese of the movements.  More practice.  Some people are worse than others, and will pendulum more and unweight more.  So their pop will be more or less pronounced, depending upon how skilled they are at performing an ILE.  If they are really skilled, there will not be a pop.  Its VERY hard to MA the difference when the ILE performer is very skilled.

 

But there are some other cases where the pop is so obvious, and what the skier does with that pop is so obvious, that its clear the skier is intentionally unweighting the skis, normally in order to swing the tails.  That is not merely an error of performance, but most likely an error in technique.  If they build up a habit of unweighting their skis with an up-unweight movement, it has a way of creeping into their skiing in the bumps, or when they are really meaning to perform finesed ILE turns, and other places where its going to hurt them more then help them. 

 

What I would like to know is why do you perform in that video some short radius turns with blatant up-unweighting?  I hear  you this is the Oz way, but why is it the Oz way?  You go on to ski the bumps with retraction unweighting which is FAR more preferable.   How does one lead to the other or how would you cope with leading skiers from one pogo habit to the other?

 

This dilemna about how to avoid the danger zone of forming pogo stick habits and avoiding the problem of getting too much unweighting during an intended ILE transition is why the PMTS crowd demonizes ILE and just has a blanket belief that skiers should get used to using retraction all the time.  Again, I will never agree with absolute statements like that myself either, but I can see some of the wisdom of trying to teach learning skiers that way.

 

 

 

post #24 of 36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rXsE5zg7ZY

 

Reilly, check out this vid on the backseat part.  Raich I think you agree is a good skier.  Check out his tips, hips, flexed legs on some of those turns.  Backseat yes.  Stays there? No.  'Nuff said.

 

Remember, Olsson didn't go to Harb to get better in the park. he came to him for GS coaching.  Big mountain, park, etc. isn't the focus of what Harb is doing and he's pretty clear about that. 

 

My kids definitely had fun (younger wasn't skiing yet though).

 

 

 

post #25 of 36
Thread Starter 

So basically in bennies photo there is no doubt a rise in the CM? his hips are scraping on the snow in the apex (or whatever terminology you want to use) and in transition (or whatever term you want to use) his hips + CM are a good leg length away from the snow... even in both turns by raich...

 

Quote:

I think the purpose of both ILE and OLR moves are for transitioning the CoM from the inside of one turn into the inside of the next turn, not for recentering.  Recentering or remaining centered are also neccessary components of either concept since failure to do so will put the skier into the back seat in the next turn.

Would you agree that HH is in the back seat on the montage during transition? I think so.... so is HH skiing the way he is teaching then?

 

Then again it brings up the question... why is skiing in the back seat bad?

you cant turn your legs properly, but that doesnt matter for HH, because he doesnt believe in that so I wont make that a point to what is bad about his skiing seeing as he doesnt believe in it... (actively turning the legs)... What I will say again is that the back seat where he definantly does have a huge amount of strain on the knees... in comparison to the two montages i posted....

 

And then again why is leg steering bad? something that the worlds best skiers use also...

have a look at this video... 17seconds in...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGCtKB1wYPA&feature=related

 

this drill that he is doing is basically a high end wedge manuver that we teach in australia, it has the basic principals of what we teach in a wedge.... a short swing javalin turn.... obvioulsy as we speed things up certain moves blend out.... this is leg turning at its finest... the worlds best train this?

 

I have had the chance to trail along side with the mogul teams that train in Australia the Jap team and Aus team, and they do talk about active leg turning... so its funny that he is trying to teach people not to do what the worlds best are doing....

 

And I will say it again im just talking about being versatile... that is all.... my goal is to be able to ski like a Japenese demo team member, who talk a lot about upper body rotation... to ski like an Austrian demo team member who I think is where the best skiing in the world is out of... ski like a canadian demo team member, ski like a PSIA demo team member... that is my goal because I can see validity in the way they all ski.... and I like certain elements out of all of them...

 

I know you guys have seen ritchie berger on the web.... I have all his dvd's.... he teaches a great deal of up and down in some of his turns and I think that he is one of the most technically proficiant skiers at this period and has been for many many years... he wouldnt have won the Japanese comps a numerous amount of times if he wasnt...

 

does anyone els have those DVD;s? they are awesome and if you want to be a good skier then I would highly recomend them... he has 3 that I know of...a short turn progression one with 5 different types of short turns... one called elegant ski which has from begginers to highlevel... and his bump DVD which has a 3 step focus to ski bumps.... leg turning, to egding to absorbtion...

 

Anyway, good skiing is good skiing

post #26 of 36

I think PMTS followers are rigth about the abuse of the up move in skiing. But what they complain most about is the push-off that leads to a pivot entry and a poorly carved turn. The extension of the old inside leg (soon to be outside leg) described by Reilly, is probably not as bad, because that will definitely allow for an early engagement.

 

The real debate then is weather one should extend up on that old inside leg or not. Personally, I think it depends on the turn and conditions. In some longer turns it seems a bit contrived (and more physically taxing) to keep that old inside leg flexed. In shorter turns, you can keep it flexed and move your CM aggressively into the new turn, thus allowing a more "lateral extension", rather than a vertical extension.

 

At least this is how I try to go about it.

post #27 of 36
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rXsE5zg7ZY

 

Reilly, check out this vid on the backseat part.  Raich I think you agree is a good skier.  Check out his tips, hips, flexed legs on some of those turns.  Backseat yes.  Stays there? No.  'Nuff said.

 

Remember, Olsson didn't go to Harb to get better in the park. he came to him for GS coaching.  Big mountain, park, etc. isn't the focus of what Harb is doing and he's pretty clear about that. 

 

My kids definitely had fun (younger wasn't skiing yet though).

 

 

 

 

but is he back because that is the best place to be? or is he back bacause hes ripping down the hill and he got off? there is a difference between demonstrating what you believe in and rocketing down the hill... im sure you know that though....

post #28 of 36

'Reilly is making one basic mistake that colors everything he writes.  What defines an up-extension is not whether or not the body moves up.  Instead, look at the angle the outside knee makes.  If the outside knee flexes more in the transition (or to cause the transition to begin), that is NOT an up extension.  If the outside knee straightens, that IS an up extension. 

 

And, as clearly said above, one set of pics is comparing skiing in a slalom style, the other set is in GS style and we don't know what Grandi was testing for or trying specifically to feel.  Comparing Grandi's #4 and #5 pic, I see the outside knee flexing a bit more...not an up extension.  Grandi certainly is not skiing in the style I'm being taught for my upcoming PSIA cert exam!

post #29 of 36


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly View Post

 

 

 

but is he back because that is the best place to be? or is he back bacause hes ripping down the hill and he got off? there is a difference between demonstrating what you believe in and rocketing down the hill... im sure you know that though....

The answer, even in the context of racing, is it depends on skier and situation.  Ligety is more backseat, Raich less for instance.  I could show you real steeps skiers with a lot deeply flexed releases, others not so much.  Not always a flaw, not always good either. 
 

post #30 of 36
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

 

'Reilly is making one basic mistake that colors everything he writes.  What defines an up-extension is not whether or not the body moves up.  Instead, look at the angle the outside knee makes.  If the outside knee flexes more in the transition (or to cause the transition to begin), that is NOT an up extension.  If the outside knee straightens, that IS an up extension. 

 

I have to disagree... im just saying  (whatever terminology you want to use) the CM rises... there is no doubt about that...  which is helping grandis hips stay over his feet... as you can see in HH photos his CM doesnt rise and as a result he is in the back seat and transition...

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
This thread is locked