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# Timing of highest edge angle - Page 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

You have a very long way to go after you leave the fall line and before you finally switch those edges in the middle of the slope.  There's plenty of time before you get to the middle to continue increasing the edge angle slowly and patiently.

Nope, don't see it at all. You're either braking or changing the turn shape you first posited into something shaped like a sideways question mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic

Ski more ice. It's good for you.

Epic.  NO   I am not an expert, will never be an expert, don't give a sh#% about being an expert. Love to ski and Beers good for me, powders good for me, tree line is good for me but ICE SUCKS.

In truth you can put the highest edge angle anywhere you want meaning you will shape the turn so that the point of smallest radius of curvature of the turn is where you want to put it.

Ghost,

surely you are forgetting about the effect of the slope of the hill?

No.  I'm including it.  It goes without saying that if you dial up too steep a tipping angle between your ski and the surface and thus too tight a turn for the forces of the turn due to your speed and that radius (mv^2/R) you will skid out.  I have carved complete circles (though usually not perfect circles with the angle of greatest tipping at the top at about 270 degrees of turn).

LiquidFeet,

Your description of purely carved turns on ice are ideal to describe exactly what happens.  If you follow your own described scenario and progressively tip the skis to a greater & greater edge-angle (in relation to the surface, regardless of slope angle) then the turn radius will diminish as you do so. If you don't mind having the resulting Spiral-In turn then it will work just fine.

Your maximum edge-angle can be wherever you decide to put it beyond Apex - except that this will mess up the 'roundness' of your turns. This pattern will also mess up your ability to put the transition point right in the middle of the lane as you desire.  You'll need to move that transition point much farther to the sides of the lane so the 'actual tipping to the new edge' will take place close to each side of the lane.

.ma

I guess it's time to define "apex".

I always thought that term was defined by the tightest part of teh turn - the point at which the radius stops decreasing and begins to increase, in other words the point of highest edge angle (or maximum lean on a bike).

Ghost, I agree with you mostly, but I'm not sure that I agree 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

I guess it's time to define "apex".

I always thought that term was defined by the tightest part of the turn

Yes, I can agree with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

the point at which the radius stops decreasing and begins to increase.

Not necessarily - the turn could be of constant radius. To me the apex is the point where the horizontal component of the velocity is zero (before it, it is positive, after it is negative)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost

in other words the point of highest edge angle (or maximum lean on a bike).

This is the bit I'm not certain about - in bike turns if you just lean, then possibly. If you lean + steer would the maximum lean be at th apex of the turn?

In skiing terms, will it be the point of the highest edge angle necessarily, or will it not be the point where the horizontal forces acting through the skis hits the maximum?

(BTW, I don't mean this as an argument, but as a query of my understanding)

...oh, and by "horizontal" I mean "acting across the slope".

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA

LiquidFeet,

Your description of purely carved turns on ice are ideal to describe exactly what happens.  If you follow your own described scenario and progressively tip the skis to a greater & greater edge-angle (in relation to the surface, regardless of slope angle) then the turn radius will diminish as you do so. If you don't mind having the resulting Spiral-In turn then it will work just fine.

We're seeing the same picture then.

LiquidFeet's method is actually *required* in order to do full loops.

Here's another turn where the highest edge angle clearly occurs after the fall line --

short swing turns.

The edge set in short swing turns occurs

in the "belly of the turn," which follows

right after the skis curve into and out of

the fall line.  That edge set embodies

the highest edge angle during the turn.

(My use of these terms comes from the explanations of their uses in Bob Barnes'

Encyclopedia of Skiing.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Here's another turn where the highest edge angle clearly occurs after the fall line --

short swing turns.

The edge set in short swing turns occurs

in the "belly of the turn," which follows

right after the skis curve into and out of

the fall line.  That edge set embodies

the highest edge angle during the turn.

(My use of these terms comes from the explanations of their uses in Bob Barnes'

Encyclopedia of Skiing.)

and where is a short swing turn better than just a dynamic short turn?

IMHO in every turn and especially in every short turn that is started by a pivot/skid/brush/feather/etc, in other words not edge locked carve, the highest edge angle occours after apex in the belly of the turn.

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