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Timing of highest edge angle

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 

OK, guys,

In which phase of the turn do you reach the highest edge angle?

It might be good to use the following terms for the four phases of a turn,

as identified by PSIA, just so we're all on the same page:

 

1. preparation (getting set up for the turn)

2. initiation (beginning the new turn)

3. control (skiing through the fall line)

4. completion (finishing off the turn)

 

I'm asking because my trainer told me the highest edge angle

occurs in the control phase of the turn, at the fall line.  That

came as a surprise, but I'm willing to go along with it if others 

agree.  I suppose if I were racing, I'd want that highest edge angle

in the fall line, not below in the completion phase of the turn,

because when it's in the completion phase it serves a braking

function.  

 

But really, let's get real, sometimes one wants to control one's

speed on steep terrain and higher edge angles within the completion

phase of the turn are quite functional for keeping one at manageable

speeds, not downhill olympic speeds.

 

Let's also assume mostly carved, or purely carved turns. 

post #2 of 42

Depends on turn shape, speed and slope steepeness, but yes, in general you want the highest edge angle during the control phase of the turn.

post #3 of 42

 Yep I'd agree with control phase. In completion you are getting ready to release your turn. Actually, look at your own post you are talking about wanting to "control" speed on the steeper terrain. Which hase of the turn would that belong to? Think about your turn shape, you could carry that phase of the turn farther down and across the hill with the higher edge angles (slow line fast). You could do this to the point of having turns shaped like a sideways Omega with your completion/preparation going up the hill.

post #4 of 42
Thread Starter 

Two of you have said yes to the "control phase" (fall line) being where the

highest angles occur.  So here's my beef with that.  Maybe I'm wrong,

but if so you guys can maybe explain how come.

 

Let's assume I am doing big monster round turns on steep terrain,

with each turn completing itself as it approaches being perpendicular

to the fall line right in the middle of the trail.  Let's also assume

that the "preparation phase" happens immediately before the middle of 

the trail (eastern trails) and the "initiation phase" happens right smack

in the middle of the trail (a goal I'm working on) and continues as the

skis begin to turn towards the side of the trail.  Let's also assume there's

a bit of "upside down-ness" going on in this initiation phase (another

goal I'm working on, and getting sometimes).  In other words, this turn

has a top to it.  The whole thing, when done as I have described it,

is a pure carve, laying railroad tracks in grippable groomed snow.

 

I don't have super high angles in the initiation phase, but the skis

are beginning to be edged.  They get progressively higher during

the fall line part of the turn, and as the skis begin to come around,

are you saying that I should immediately start letting up on those edges,

rather than enjoying skiing into counter and allowing those edges to get

real high as I start approaching the middle of the trail again????  

 

I must admit, it feels real fine to get those edges way up high as I 

come around after the fall line.  The skis are carving real nice, no skidding

is occurring, and then I lengthen out and dive down the hill and tip them

the other way, slowly, progressively getting higher and higher angles

one more time.

 

But if I should not do that for some reason, then I think it will feel like I

am rushing the turn.  It won't last as long, and I won't enjoy it as much,

 

and I won't feel the spray hitting my inside boot cuff, and my hip won't 

have time to get so close down to the snow, and so on.  

 

Help me out here.

 

post #5 of 42

Heh, heh, heh - just keep doing what you're doing if it's fun! (There's no Right & Wrong anyway) In the end, where you achieve the highest edge-angle depends on what you are intentionally doing.

 

Let's also separate "highest CM inclination" from "highest edge-angle" at the skis.

 

I'd guess most of us achieve highest CM inclination (Off vertical) at or near Apex (probably just past Apex). Seldom do I feel the need to tip my body more inside the turn after that point in a regular turn.

 

But edges are a different matter since traveling from Apex to Transition our edges experience increasing surface slope-angle which is additive to any pre-existing tipping angle (off vertical).  If we don't deliberately reduce the ski's edge-angle after Apex, it's angle (with the surface) increases greatly as it comes across the slope. Also, if we hold our body-angle at the same inclination the slope surface will "come up" towards us making it seem like we're tipping over further - when we really aren't.

 

The increase in real surface edge-angle at the ski has the effect of decreasing turn radius (if we continue to carve) and greatly increases pressure on us, not only because of the tighter radius but also due to Centrifugal Force lining up more with Gravity.  Reacting to this we may well 'release' some edge-angle in order to keep our continuing radius similar to what it was at Apex.  In other words, just the act of managing radius (keeping it the same despite the increasing surface angle relative to our skis) we may be 'releasing' our edge-angle without even realizing it. 

 

End result: we're reducing edge-angle after Apex without necessarily being aware of it.

 

.ma

post #6 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

and I won't feel the spray hitting my inside boot cuff, and my hip won't 

have time to get so close down to the snow, and so on.  

 

Try to make that happen sooner.

post #7 of 42
Thread Starter 

OK, so I should get that spray hitting that inner boot

while in the fall line rather than below it.  I'll give it a

try this weekend.

 

Looks like it will be frozen rain-infused snow on

Saturday.  Should be perfect ... or not. Guess I'll

also find out how those skis hold on the hard stuff

when I'm trying to do this thing.

 

Skiing thank goodness never gets old or static. 

 

Thanks for the advice, all.

 

 

post #8 of 42

you can get the highest edge angles in the fallline by getting the highest edge angle in the fall line.

 

make sense?

 

simply put we should always strive to get are maxuim edging(and at the same time lateral G) while we right in the fall line. If we get higher edge angles below the fall line we simply can not be on high edge angle high enough in the turn to be as dynamic as we want.

 

watch this video

 

the skier is always moving his COM down the hill and into the new turn. as soon as he is at max angles in the fall line he starts letting off on the edges so he can again be on a very high edge angles in the fall line.

 

 

post #9 of 42

That is a great example BWPA of having the highest edge angle in the fall line. But that skier is a helluva skier.

 

In reality, you have to carve (or have a decent skarve) in order to achieve the highest edge angle in the fall line. With so many skiers doing pivots (or pivot entries), they often have less edge angle around the apex of the turn and the angle increases as the turn completes ... often in an edge check. This is why many skiers think that the highest edge angle is near turn completion.

post #10 of 42

I agree with all of the above. 

 

Michael is bang on.

 

Same thing from a different perspective:

 

You want the highest real edge angles at the apex (point of minimum turn radius) of your turn.  By real edge angle I mean the angle between the snow and the ski taking into acount that the slope of the snow surface changes relative to the outside of the turn as you go around.

 

If your intent is to get the most sideways acceleration across the hill, then you should plan your turn so the apex is at the fall line. 

 

I cant see the thread in this posting box (damn the new format), but someone else mentioned how centrifugal force and gravity change from subtractive to additive (paraphrasing here) as you go around the turn assuming you are skiing downhill and not skiing up to a connecting run.  And perhaps someone else mentioned how it depends on speed and turn radius.  Here's how to play with that:

 

You need force to accelerate and change direction.  Putting the apex higher in the turn, say even above the fall line (again assuming your are skiing downhill making turns across the fall line as might be typical in a gs or sl course) means that those turn forces when greatest are pushing you down the hill.   The difficulty is that in order not to fall on your inside ear, you need to have suficient speed and short enough radius already dialed up.  There will be a moment between falling into the turn and achieving enough centripetal force at the ski from the now sufficiently decreased radius when you might feal as if your skis won't push around soon enough to catch you.  That moment should tie in with the free-fall release of the last turn.  Lots of fun. If you want to win that Chinese downhill, you must maximise forces in the downward direction and minimise forces that push you up the hill.  Move the apex higher up, but not so high that you can't keep your line, and release forces in the bottom of the turn, but keep them long enough to put you where you want to be.

 

Also there is a maximum force the ski can take.   Maximum force available from ski + gravity component in turn direction = turn force availible at top of turn.  Maximum turn force available from ski - gravity component in turn direction = turn force available at bottom of turn.

 

Also at speed it might seem like you are really cranking the bottom of the turn, when in fact if you look at your tracks the radius is not as small as it seems to you.

post #11 of 42

The skier in the video looks to me like he's increasing his edge angle past the fall line until the point where he releases.  This is shown pretty clearly at about 1:20 and other places in the video.

 

The 2007 PSIA Alpine Technical Manual contradicts itself about the point of max edge angle.  It says that max edge angle should be at or near the fall line (pg. 80) and also says that in the finishing phase of the turn (lower 1/3 of the turn) that, "Increasing edge angle and tension in the outside leg can create more resistance, greater speed control, and a tighter turn radius."  (pg. 31)

post #12 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

 

The 2007 PSIA Alpine Technical Manual contradicts itself about the point of max edge angle.  It says that max edge angle should be at or near the fall line (pg. 80) and also says that in the finishing phase of the turn (lower 1/3 of the turn) that, "Increasing edge angle and tension in the outside leg can create more resistance, greater speed control, and a tighter turn radius."  (pg. 31)

 

It seems to me that you can't talk in absolutes. It goes back as Bob Barnes says to intent. If the skier wants to go across the hill more then the control phase will go lower in the hill. If it's more of a slalom turn, then maybe not. In your post and in LF's OP, you both use the word "control" for what is happening just below the fallline. Wouldn't it make sense that you are still talking about "control phase"?

post #13 of 42

Is there a reason "control phase" = fall line?

 

Why can't the control phase be BIGGER than the fall line segment?

 

 

woops, just saw E.'s post. 

 

SoftSnow, I really don't see those statements as a contradiction.   One should, the other can.

post #14 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

Is there a reason "control phase" = fall line?

 

Why can't the control phase be BIGGER than the fall line segment?

 

IMHO if you are still trying to "control" speed and direction, it is. But I'm not a guy that has to have a name fr everything, I'm just an unfrozen caveman lawyer that likes to ski.

post #15 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 

 

IMHO if you are still trying to "control" speed and direction, it is. But I'm not a guy that has to have a name fr everything, I'm just an unfrozen caveman lawyer that likes to ski.

 

'Still' implies only after fall line.    I think I was trying to include prior to fall line?

post #16 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

 

 

'Still' implies only after fall line.    I think I was trying to include prior to fall line?

 

See earlier posts to Liquidfeet.

post #17 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 

 

See earlier posts to Liquidfeet.

 

So the only clarification that remains is the changing nature of  'control'?   

 

The control above the fall line being in the difference of force direction between  the projection of gravity to along the surface and the projection of centripetal force along the surface?

 

It seems to me that we should also  include a changing nature of 'ski rebound'  as we shift the control point(s).

post #18 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post

 

The skier in the video looks to me like he's increasing his edge angle past the fall line until the point where he releases.  This is shown pretty clearly at about 1:20 and other places in the video.

 

The 2007 PSIA Alpine Technical Manual contradicts itself about the point of max edge angle.  It says that max edge angle should be at or near the fall line (pg. 80) and also says that in the finishing phase of the turn (lower 1/3 of the turn) that, "Increasing edge angle and tension in the outside leg can create more resistance, greater speed control, and a tighter turn radius."  (pg. 31)

 

I see no contradiction.  The max edge angle should be at or near the fall line; putting it much lower will really kill your speed and putting it much higher will be increasingly more difficult to achieve.  However should you for whatever (adjective deleted) reason not want to ski fast, you can slow down by puting the higher angle lower in the turn.  (again making usual assumptions about direction of travel being roughly down the fall line and turning back and forth across it)

 

You may also want to play with a dynamic snappy cross-under by exagerating the edge angle at the bottom of the turn to really get your skis across fast.

post #19 of 42

Let me clarify what I posted.  The 2007 PSIA "Alpine Technical Manual" says on page 80, "Both skis tip the same amount early in the turn, with the strongest angles developing in or near the fall line."

 

Parse that wording as you choose.  I still feel that there is a contradiction between this quote and the earlier one I posted.

 

By the way, this manual lists three turn phases, the Initiation Phase (top 1/3 of the "C"), the Shaping phase (middle 1/3), and the Finishing Phase (bottom 1/3).  Page 30.  No control phase.

 

Keep in mind the original poster's question..."In which phase of the turn do you reach the highest edge angle?"  The answer is either the Shaping Phase or the Finishing Phase as the skier chooses.

post #20 of 42

Take the skier just coming onto the flats at 20mph making well-rounded medium radius turns.

 

I can't really see them trying to achieve higher edge-angles anywhere other than Apex.  Once at Apex, this skier begins releasing edge-angles (progressively) in order to migrate over their skis into the other direction. Take this same skier and same turn to a mild green slope and I think you'll see exactly the same thing although the slope angle itself will begin skewing the surface-to-ski interaction angle late in the turn.

 

As the slope gets steeper the same turn done the same way will result in greater surface-to-ski edge-angles simply because of the inherent geometry.

 

As the manual suggests the highest intentional angle is probably at or near Apex for any normal turn - where the skier isn't purposefully setting a firm edge for braking or to deliberately turn more sharply. The quote: "Increasing edge angle and tension in the outside leg can create more resistance, greater speed control, and a tighter turn radius." seems to suggest just such an option.

 

.ma

post #21 of 42

My take is "theory" and "practice"      Super humans can and do achieve perfect skiing (as defined) highest edge angle in fall line.....physics skiing.      However,,,,unless you are CRAZY on any slope that is of any significance...our brains do not want our bodyies to be falling down the hill....This said as we rotate our skis perpindicular to the fall line, the tilt of the hill and the fact that we are not perpindicular to the angle of the hill simply allows a higher edge angle to occur....take an open parellel skier as the perfect example....he/she does little or nothing to create edge at the bottom of the turn---it happes as the skis cross the fall line on a tilted slope on which they are standing perpindicular to the center of the earth, not the hill on which they are.   Do this yourself....stand sideways on a steep slope.  If you are perpindicular to the slope, you have no edge angle.     But is this how you are skiing it....?  No, you are more vertical to the center of the earth, as you do this, edge angle is created.      Ski Gods are perpindicular to the slope or very close---thus one could say it is easier for them to have a lower edge angle in the bottom 1/3.        

 

If an open parellel skier would always be moving his CM down the hill perpindicular to the slope...no edge angle would occur unless he/she created it.      In my view, normal skiers who are not GODs have two things going against them:  1) CM is not moving as stated.   2) they (we) cannot progressively edge...in a liner example of 1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2,1----5 being the highest edge.  1 being the transisitons.   Rather, most skiers are 1-5-1  with 5 lasting from mid-to lower fall line to right before we start our next turn.     

 

My personal goal in skiing is to TRY to get my highest edge angle immediately---because I know I am not getting it until at least the fall line.       It is best to practice this in LONG radius turns.      You will never obtain this feeling doing shorts or mediums....I say own it on long turns and ratchet the flow down to your shorts.     

post #22 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post

 

Take the skier just coming onto the flats at 20mph making well-rounded medium radius turns.

 

I can't really see them trying to achieve higher edge-angles anywhere other than Apex. 

 

Really? 

 

What if they're actually trying to generate speed by forcing the skis over with their core so that the top part of the C is actually a forward skate?

post #23 of 42

In my skiing the conrol phase is where the highest forces and edge angles are generated. The only time I will keep the forces into the completion phase is to scrub speed and alter preplanned direction. The control phase is where direction is designated and speed is increased by flexing the skis. On steep terrain you can acheive higher edge angles & pressure earlier to maintain speed and course. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.;-)

post #24 of 42

Comprex,

 

I specified a 'well rounded medium radius turn' with the intent of describing a typical turn with typical 'just skiing' intentions. If a person wishes to add a specific intent that requires a higher edge angle somewhere else in the turn, I've no reason to think they couldn't (or shouldn't) do it. 

 

Trying to 'push' on the skis for acceleration or breaking would certainly require higher edge angles at the phase where you intended to push against the skis.

 

Still, even when 'skating turns' on the flats (as opposed to propulsion skating) I think my highest edge-angle is probably still pretty close to Apex, even though it may get to that high tipping-angle much sooner in the turn.  (Tip extra for the early push, then hold until about Apex)

 

.ma

post #25 of 42
Thread Starter 

Boy, I never knew anyone responded to my OP.  I thought it was dead.  This new *#!%#* format just doesn't inform me any more of posts to my threads.  

 

Here's one more type of turn to consider, which I think has not yet been discussed.  Consider purely carved turns, spreading left and right across a slope as wide as a 8-lane interstate highway including its median.  These turns occur on blue terrain, with very firm snow to transparent ice underfoot, and nobody is on the slope because it's too icy.  The turns are very wide, totally round, and attain a lot of speed.

 

Let's assume you tip those skis gently to the new angle right in the middle of the slope, and get your center of mass downhill as you do that, then you take that purely carved turn all the way over to the edge of the slope increasing that tipping angle slowly, then you go through the fall line, still patiently increasing that tipping angle, then you head across the slope towards its middle where you plan on changing the edges and starting the new turn.  You will take the new turn all the way to the other side of the slope, as you did this one.  Dividing the turn into two halves for convenience, half the width of the slope will be taken up with the top half of your turns, and half of the slope will be devoted to the bottom half of your turns.

 

You have a very long way to go after you leave the fall line and before you finally switch those edges in the middle of the slope.  There's plenty of time before you get to the middle to continue increasing the edge angle slowly and patiently.  You can increase the angle for a while, then still have plenty of time to slowly, progressively, begin to flatten the angle.  Your actual tip to the new angle will occur right in the middle of the slope.  

 

I believe in this case the highest edge angle can occur after the fall line with no appreciable loss of speed, no skidding, no loss of roundness to the turns.  You will not be seeking to shorten the radius of your turn with that late high edge angle; you will just be extending the turn with some progressive movement instead of parking and riding.

post #26 of 42

WOW, do you guys really think of all this stuff when you are skiing?  Maybe this is why I am not nor will never be an Expert.  Almost always I am looking ahead, smiling and enjoying the ride.  Also avoid solid intermediate sheets of ice.  The most fun I have ever had on ice was very brief as I watched my right ski pass me down the S.G. course when it chattered off my foot - in the ice.

post #27 of 42


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

Boy, I never knew anyone responded to my OP.  I thought it was dead.  This new *#!%#* format just doesn't inform me any more of posts to my threads.  

 

 


 

Assuming you subscribed to the thread, go to the home page and new additions will be there.  if you do not routinely stop at home, you won;t see the new adds.

post #28 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post

 

WOW, do you guys really think of all this stuff when you are skiing?  Maybe this is why I am not nor will never be an Expert.  Almost always I am looking ahead, smiling and enjoying the ride.  Also avoid solid intermediate sheets of ice.  The most fun I have ever had on ice was very brief as I watched my right ski pass me down the S.G. course when it chattered off my foot - in the ice.

 

If you want to be an expert, you may have to think about this stuff from time to time. If you are an expert you are probably not thinking about this stuff.

 

Ski more ice. It's good for you.

post #29 of 42
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j View Post

 


 


 

Assuming you subscribed to the thread, go to the home page and new additions will be there.  if you do not routinely stop at home, you won;t see the new adds.

The old format emailed me when there were new posts in the threads I subscribed to, or started.  Not so any more.  I'm definitely not a fan of this new format.  I miss the old Epic very much.

post #30 of 42

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

 I'm definitely not a fan of this new format.

 

Wrong forum...

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