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PMTS vs the WEDGE, why are we concerned

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
Well, now we have heard from Harald Harb in the GLM vs PMTS thread, through the compliments of SCSA. The theme, “There is only one decent system, mine”. The wedge is evil even if introduced as a gliding wedge. HH says that the gliding wedge will inevitably lead to the breaking wedge the minute a student wants to do something just a little beyond their ability and lead to dead end movements. I agree with what Harald Harb has to say here as 97% of all skiers will do just that. What bad habits does this introduce and how difficult are they to correct later?

PSIA?,Yah, lets tag them with the title “WEDGE”. If done correctly it congers up an image as bad as having your underwear yanked half way to your head from behind. Is it evil? Well not exactly and works in all situations for teaching.

The argument is over reliance on the wedge. Well to tell you the truth, most people who would stick with the sport in the direct parallel program will move quickly beyond the wedge in traditional teaching and also remain. So, what’s the real bogeyman. The real bogeyman is that most skiers learn on their own to twist the new outside ski in the direction of the turn to start the new turn in one form or another. This leads to sequential movements and sloppy wedge christies even at advanced levels.

How hard is this to correct? Twisting the outside foot is easy to correct but hard to make permanent. Student will inevitably go back to twisting the foot the minute they ski on their own and don’t concentrate. The only way to correct this is repetition, something most skiers are not going to do anymore than they continued lessons to avoid twisting in the first place. Status- terminal advanced intermediate/ Ski all terrain/ difficulty in heavy conditions.

PMTS? Lets tag them with “THE PHANTOM MOVE” or, over reliance on active weight transfer and narrow stance. The big thing that the Phantom Move is suppose to prevent is the natural learning tendency to twist the outside foot to start the turn. The theory is, if you stand on the outside foot exclusively, yah can’t twist it. Does it work? Yup if you stick with it. So, what’s the real bogeyman? The bogeyman is that total active weight transfers in a narrow stance, natually lead to active pushoff, counter rotation and up-unweighting. When a student becomes more proficient and on their own the turn initiation movements tend towards simultaneous actions of both feet and the student naturally up-unweights, counter rotates and twists both feet out from under them and in the direction of the new turn. Status- terminal advanced intermediate/Ski all terrain/difficulty in heavy and icy conditions. How is this dead end different from the dead end produced using the wedge progressions?

Well the dead end produced by normal PMTS students is one step higher in the HACK category than that produced by the Wedge. The result, students can ski better and are less likely to seek additional training. Additionally, the marketing plan of Harb Systems makes it more likely the student will not seek additional, very versatile help.

How hard is active up-unweighting and counter rotation to correct? Very difficult, its hard to even get students to understand what you are talking about and even harder to get them to feel the correction for the first time. Repetition is the only key to correction and I see this as very difficult for even veteran ski instructors. Going all the way back to the beginning Phantom Move and opening up the stance is the best recourse. Keep in mind this active pushoff is also a dead end produced by the Wedge progression and was indicative of straight ski skiing. As a result, many straight ski students exhibit this very pushoff problem.

The conclusion: Takes your pick, your students are going to fall into natural bad habits and plateau. Will they seek help or will they continue to hack? That falls squarely on our students and has little to do with us. Our job is to be versatile enough to see their dead ends and correct the problems regardless of which system we use. I might add that Harald Harb’s marketing does a great disservice to the whole idea of seeking help at the higher more advanced levels. If it were not for his marketing, he would have a much larger following of instructors.
post #2 of 32
Thread Starter 
So, the perfect teaching system to prevent students from dumbly ending up in plateau's eludes us.
What do we do? Can we meld the two systems and come up with something better? I agree with Ott, PSIA will meld the two eventually and swallow up PMTS regardless of the Harb ego fallout. Do we sit tight and wait?

How about the Phantom Move with variations of wider stance and just lighting the foot to start with? Would that work?

Arguing until we are blue in the face hasn't produced many converts. What is the next step?

I gots my ideas and will let this tread develope.
post #3 of 32
I think that PMTS is being misrepresented here. I have not seen anything on Harb's website, or in his magazine articles that say that beginners should lift and tip, or even lighten and tip. What I see is releasing of the downhill ski to get the new turn started, followed by the lifting (or lightening) of the inside ski. The active weight transfer occurs as the skis come into the fall line. So a novice skier will only have to balance on one ski after it is engaged and generating enough force to make this task relatively simple.
There IS a "lift and tip" turn that he covers in one of his videos and books, but it is for advanced skiers.
post #4 of 32
I think Juan Pierre wants to have a book - too!

His wife cut him off - he's got to produce some income now.
post #5 of 32
I believe HH said "liting is learning, lightening is expert skiing".
Even the Centerline wedge begins with weight transfer.
I just spent two weeks at Hood. I didn't see HH there.(I would have recognized him in an instant after seeing him ski this spring) I saw Jesse Hunt and Aldo Radamus with the Team but no HH. I also never saw a USST athlete ski with a narrow stance.(nor hardly anyone else for that matter) Olle Larson was using something strapped to the legs to "open" the stance.(I'm not too keen on that either)
I (an old f#rt) use a tall narrow stance(skelatel alignment)to get down at the end of the day and avoid fatigue. I rest the inside foot for the next turn. I call this my "old man stance".
Most good coaches and instructors have been teaching a lot of these things for years. I once asked a coach why his "progression" was so simaler to Jobert's in Sking an Art a Technique. What he told me was "What Jobert and I" (HH too) "do is watch the best skiers in the world, identify their movements and figure out a way to teach them". How can anyone "copywrite" that? For sure PSIA will incorperate these moves, a lot of people are alredy doing it. If anyone has a "right" to it it should be the athletes that origionate it.
post #6 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
I think that PMTS is being misrepresented here. I have not seen anything on Harb's website, or in his magazine articles that say that beginners should lift and tip, or even lighten and tip. What I see is releasing of the downhill ski to get the new turn started, followed by the lifting (or lightening) of the inside ski. The active weight transfer occurs as the skis come into the fall line. So a novice skier will only have to balance on one ski after it is engaged and generating enough force to make this task relatively simple.
There IS a "lift and tip" turn that he covers in one of his videos and books, but it is for advanced skiers.
Actually, when Harb started the PMTS thing, it was all about lift and tip. He obviously refined the whole thing over the years. But the fact is that there is nothing wrong with the idea of lifting/lightening/tipping per say. It is a fine way of releasing the old outside ski. Unfortunately many PMTS students stop there. They simply ride the outside ski through the turn and don't take advantage of the inside ski's ability to carve, to control turn shape and to help with balance. Add a narrow stance and shaped skis that are too long and carving with the inside ski will be next to impossible for many so-so skiers.

I also lift/lighten and tip the old outside ski to release the edges, but I usually follow up with aggressive engagement of the outside edge of the new inside ski to carve hard and help control turn shape. Of course my stance is wide enough to allow me to carve with the inside ski.
post #7 of 32
Seems to me that the problems most skiers have when going from beginner to intermediate have to do with their fear of steeper terrain. Whether they counter rotate or push their skis to an edge the desired result is usually to get the skis turned back across the hill. If they can get some braking going on at the same time then they really feel good. So whether they started in a wedge or learned to lift and tip they both end up in the same place when fear sets in. We might be better off teaching railroad track turns to beginners. RR turns and pivot slips, Hmmmm, I may just have a new system here......
post #8 of 32
Something Harald said makes sense to me. He evaluates skiing expertise by when in the turn you begin using the tool (the ski). If you begin using the tool after crossing the fall line, you are not as skilled as someone who begins using the tool at or before crossing the fall line. The really good skiers use the tool all the time. If you were standing uphill from such a skier, you would be able to see the bases of the skis at the top of that skier's turns.

This is exactly what Jim Weiss said many years ago.

Are you pressing on an edged ski to make the turn or are you pushing against a somewhat edged ski to make the turn?
post #9 of 32
Right on nolo, and Jim Weiss too! That's a great M/A tool, where/when in the turn does the ski engage, and start doing the work?

And umm, as far as the premise that PMTS trains skiers to "dead-end" with an up-unweighting and counter-rotation kind of turn... : WRONG!

PMTS teaches relaxing and flexing through the transition, with a nice smooth extension to bend the skis throught the power phase, till it's time to release into the new direction.

This is started on very quickly, soon after the student begins to link turns. This is a retraction turn, and has no hippy hop unweighting at all. It's also more difficult to force/twist the engaged ski to make the turn, and far easier to let the ski do the work, so your students "do the right thing" a bit easier... using the tool!

PMTS uses simple movements that are built upon all the way through. Nothing is unlearned to advance. But if the moves ain't right... then it's "The beat goes on and I'm so wrong" (Frank Zappa's Dancing Fool)!

I'm sure Pierre, eh! has seen a lot of skiers (as we all have) that up unweight and then pick up the inside foot while stomping on the outside... YUCKIE! Just because a skier picks up the inside foot does NOT mean it's a "phantom move".

I have personally skied with PMTS trained skiers and instructors that don't have it down either, and it still needs work. And we certainly see instructors doing the wedge wrong ALL THE TIME, don't we, eh? : Geez, I HATE that. And I see the phantom move done incorrectly by a lot of folks.

Once again, PMTS methods are being misinterpreted. Check all your previous premesis and notions at the door! Don't argue about the new stuff, and learn something really cool. Don't be too defensive over "what you already know".

You can't be really objective about this till you try it on the snow, and go with the new feelings, especially if you've never turned skis in this fashion. Just like anything in skiing, you can learn things on your own, but under the eye of a skillful trainer, interesting things can happen.

My students LOVE what I teach them. And they progress quickly. Kill the wedge, Kill the stem, use that sidecut! To steal something from somebody on the forum... "tip 'em and bend 'em till they grin"!

I constantly hear "why hasn't anybody else shown me this", and "who else teaches this". I do not bring up anything about my instruction being "different" or "PMTS vs PSIA". I just teach it, and let the results do the talking. Objective, eh? :

As far as students not coming back, my personal experience has been quite the contrary. Returns have improved, and they were always pretty strong compared to the "average" instructor at my home mountain.

We did not have much of a chance to play arund with this stuff Pierre, eh?, when we skied together, but I encourage you to try sometime. We were too busy SKIING to fuss about with clinicing... but it sure would be fun to play with this stuff ON THE SNOW. Or maybe a ski-deck!

I saw a light dusting on peaks north of Fairplay CO this morning... Sigh. Snow!

[ July 23, 2002, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: SnoKarver ]
post #10 of 32
Sorry Snowkarver,

Just because it is white doesn't make it snow. We had alot of that "white stuff" down here, but it was only hail. But keep hoping for the first time I am ready to ski in July.
post #11 of 32
Thread Starter 
SnoKarver:
Quote:
And umm, as far as the premise that PMTS trains skiers to "dead-end" with an up-unweighting and counter-rotation kind of turn... WRONG!
I could just as easily jump on HH for his "Wedge turn teaches dead end moves". "WRONG" SnoKarver, you read things in my post between the lines. Harb also clears up that abridged statement in the manual with further detail that I find correct.

No one has to train our students to do dead end moves and that was my point. I in no way misrepresented PMTS. I have the full manual and have studied it and used it. Our students will progress to dead end moves with either system if they do not continue lessons.

My Point again:
The wedge has its drawbacks for the student in over reliance on stability and putting the student in a position from which twisting the outside ski to start the turn is natural.

PMTS has its drawbacks in that it puts the student in the perfect postition to naturally progress to up unweighting and pivoting of both feet.

I am assuming in both cases that the natural progressions happens as a result of the student discontinuing lessons shortly after beginning.

Let me make this clear, neither the wedge or PMTS build-in the teaching of dead end movements. All I am stating is that I am seeing the limitations of both systems in allowing students to progress on their own without inevitable dead ends. Both systems set the student up for dead ends if the student does not continue formal training. This would apply to instructors teaching and learning these systems as well. You even state this.

The dead ends reached naturally by the PMTS student are less limiting and I therefore speculate that the PMTS student will be less inclined to corrrect them.

Right now I am wondering if there is any progressions out there that do not set a student up for inevitable dead ends when continued on their own. I am not sure that skiing doesn't just have natural built in dead ends, no matter how simple and fast we can get students to slide down the hill. I don't have all the answers.
post #12 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by snowdancer:
Seems to me that the problems most skiers have when going from beginner to intermediate have to do with their fear of steeper terrain. Whether they counter rotate or push their skis to an edge the desired result is usually to get the skis turned back across the hill. If they can get some braking going on at the same time then they really feel good. ...
I think a critical fact is that many such skiers simply aren't used to having any significant amount of across-the-hill speed before initiating their turn. They don't understand that this allows their skis to turn without the need for swiveling or pushing their tails out and that this really is the better way to ski.

I don't know if this reticence arises because they think they will wind up going downhill faster if they begin their turns with any amount of across-the-hill speed, or it arises because they simply have always "skied the fast line slow", but it doesn't really matter. Once you get them used to having a bit of transverse speed, everything else falls into place much more easily.

For example, last season, I ran into a neighbor family (dad & 2 pre-teens) on the local hill. Apparently, they only go skiing a couple of times per year. The dad was on ancient straight skis attempting to swivel straight down the fall line, and both kids were dutifully attempting to imitate him. The only problem was that the snow was sloppy and very slow, so they were on a high green trail and (no surprise) having difficulties. Both kids had reverted back to a completely rigid braking snowplow.

At one point, the older daughter who was getting very frustrated came up to me and said, "How in the world do you do that - you SWOOP and don't look like you are working at all". I took that as an invitation to give her some pointers along the lines of what I was saying above as well as getting her to push both knees into the turn (even from a wedge). I told her to follow right on my tail and copy everything I did.

Amazingly, within just a few turns, she got the idea, her wedge started closing back up, and she was one absolutely delighted with herself. Next, I had the younger one in tow as well. The dad looked on and asked me about it privately, afterwards - grin.

In the ideal case, people should work on this on very gentle terrain where they would feel no danger of picking up too much speed even when pointed straight down the fall line. In this case they can practice small angle turns away from the fall line at a more or less constant forward speed, but in practice, sometimes this is not possible, and then they must be familiarized with having a bit of across-the-hill speed to make all the "good things" work.

Just my $0.02,

Tom / PM
post #13 of 32
Pierre, I know you did not intend this, but in a roundabout way you just stated that the advantage of the wedge is more $$ for instructors!

[ July 24, 2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: milesb ]
post #14 of 32
Thread Starter 
ryan, that's a rather mobid way of looking at the situation and I know of no instructor that would think that way. Don't say that too loud though, SAM marketing may be listening. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ July 24, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Pierre eh! ]
post #15 of 32
Pierre,

Here's a mind problem for you. At the end of the first day on skis a group of skiers is confidantly skiing the beginning area. Much of their skiing is parallel athough its obvious that they were taught a wedge stance. The turns that they are making are very large, they are in fact not thinking about turning they are thinking about "going where they want to go". This intent has them moving forward down, across and even back up the hill. Their whole concept of skiing is that they go where their skis are pointed and since we attached the skis to our feet we should use the feet and legs to point or guide the skis where we want to go. They've experienced the feel of pressure shifting to the outside ski and the feel of riding the edge of that ski. They've been exposed to the idea that right leads right and left leads left. They mostly control their speed with turn shape.

What are the dead end manuvers that this group would end up caught in? And another question. Are there certain dead ends that everyone ends up in if we just go out there and slide down the hill and figure out skiing for ourselves?

Yd
post #16 of 32
Thread Starter 
Ydnar:
Quote:
. The turns that they are making are very large, they are in fact not thinking about turning they are thinking about "going where they want to go". This intent has them moving forward down, across and even back up the hill. Their whole concept of skiing is that they go where their skis are pointed
I have always liked your thinking and this type of teaching is exactly what all of us should be teaching. Bob Barnes calls this offensive skiing. If a skier is to have chance on their own, the concept "go where you want to go has to be ingrained". Where are they going to get in trouble? That leads us to your second question.

Quote:
Are there certain dead ends that everyone ends up in if we just go out there and slide down the hill and figure out skiing for ourselves?
The first thing our group of students is going to hear when the go into the lodge and join their advanced friends for dinner is "Yah gotta push yourself and ski with people way better than you on harder slopes". In other words our new skiers are going to hear the perfect recipe for defensive skiing from well meaning friends. 97% of our new skiers will head for the harder slopes with their friends. Our new skiers will surive by stemming and stepping their way to bad habits.

"Yah gotta push yourself and ski with people way better than you on harder slopes". Now thats the dumbest advice a person can give a brand new skier. Pushing yourself is ok but that is not the way to learn anything about good technique. When I head for the nasty stuff, I am not there to learn. I am there to enjoy and reap the benefits fo what I painstakingly learned on easier terrain.
post #17 of 32
P. eh!,

While it's comforting to know I'm on your mind, I didn't say anything.
post #18 of 32
Thread Starter 
Oh heck ryan I meant milesb. I sometimes get you two mixed up.
By the way with 3367 posts you have said plenty and often come to mind. :

[ July 24, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Pierre eh! ]
post #19 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
P. eh!,

While it's comforting to know I'm on your mind, I didn't say anything.
ryan:

You were thinking of posting so loudly, even I could hear you!
post #20 of 32
Just don't want anybody thinking I have somehow maintained the POWER power power to DELETE delete delete posts. Is all. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
post #21 of 32
Thread Starter 
SnoKarver, you are still missing the point. I do not dispute what a skilled PMTS instructor teaches or what the results are in a lesson with the student. You are basing you're argument on what you see in new students and returning students and I am basing my argument on the ones you don't see again. Apples and Oranges.

My point was our student in PMTS does fine during the lesson and then goes to a hill that requires skills beyond where they are. Bingo, back to defensive skiing but what movements are they using to turn. Our ATS skier is going to revert back to some form of wedge. I doubt, from what I have seen, that our PMTS skier will resort much to some form of evil wedge unless the slope is too frightening. What I have seen is that our PMTS skiers go up and twist both together (hockey slides). They are then skiing parallel (no wedge) but very defensive. That was my whole point.

I found it interesting that the defensive movements adopted by our "I can ski perfect" PMTS students that enables them to ski slopes beyond thier skills, was similar in style to that produced by GLM.

You see, my argument is, either system sets a skier up for some type of dead end movements after the lesson. You can argue all you want that PMTS does not teach dead end movements. That's true and neither does ATS when done properly. Shortly after leaving our lessons, 97% regularly ski terrain that is beyond the degree of difficulty that they can ski with very efficient movements. When we see a slope filled with defensive skiers, we are quick to blame the teaching system. Nobody is really at fault, skiers go beyond their limitations.

All I am really saying is that I am beginning to think more like Horst Abrahm's. It ain't the system but the mind set and the way we look at skiing. Sure, we need to give them skills but more importantly, maybe we should give them the mind skills necessary to take skiing beyond their current skills without loosing the offensive nature that good movements demand. That's a much bigger challenge and could produce far different results after the student leaves the lesson.

Now, how to really do that?
post #22 of 32
: : :

Pierre, eh!:
Quote:
The bogeyman is that total active weight transfers in a narrow stance, natually lead to active pushoff, counter rotation and up-unweighting. When a student becomes more proficient and on their own the turn initiation movements tend towards simultaneous actions of both feet and the student naturally up-unweights, counter rotates and twists both feet out from under them and in the direction of the new turn.
and later, Pierre, eh?:
Quote:
PMTS has its drawbacks in that it puts the student in the perfect postition to naturally progress to up unweighting and pivoting of both feet.
Well to keep things "interesting" this summer, I'm gonna debate you on this. The first quote above is what prompted me to say... WRONG! Nothing "between the lines" at all, unless I misunderstood somehow...

Boy, I wish we had more time to mess with this stuff together. But hey, we had more fun skiing our brains out than standing around in a "clinic", right?

I disagree that PMTS "puts the student in the perfect postition to naturally progress to up unweighting and pivoting of both feet." Nope, it tries to remove ALL of these things. Immediately. Like an exorcism!

I can't see how you'd come to those conclusions!

Total active weight transfers in a narrow stance MIGHT lead to "active pushoff, counter rotation and up-unweighting" but ONLY if the skier is making the tranfer by moving (laterally), stomping, or otherwise making a gross body movement to put pressure on the outside ski. Not a part of PMTS, or anybody else who teaches skiing, I hope!

However, like a lot of movements, a new skier will tend to do these gross moves, especially if in an uncomfortable "defensive" mode. PMTS balance drills will stop these movements.

This is NOT the way to transfer weight. Too much work! Not smooth! If the skier lightens and releases the old outside stance ski (by relaxing/flexing and tipping) the weight GOES to the new stance foot, without pressuring or displacing it too quickly. This is a big focus of PMTS taught turns. Aquired pressure to start with, extension in the mid-turn to help bend and shape the skis for the turn, then releasing into the next turn...

PhysicsMan, I like your comment about speed at the entry of the new turn, and the SWOOP.

Struggling (less skilled) skiers tend to turn to slow (brake) down, instead of maintaining a constant (could be slow) speed. How the heck are the skis supposed to turn in the new direction now? Less skilled, da rotato potato (big rotary). Rotary pushoff. More skilled... Wedln. Mambo? Umm, still, umm rotary pushoff, eh?

Now, if a PMTS trained skier who is struggling to "lose" the rotary pushoff stuff doesn't lighten the old stance foot quickly enough, and/or doesn't tip enough (new move, timid, habits), well heck, the skis are gonna get stuck, and you will see the "bad" stuff show up. Anything to make those skis turn, darn it!

Too many skiers struggle with the release. Release those sticky skis!

Then SWOOP into the new turn... I am just DROOOLING to make turns again!
post #23 of 32
Well in that case, bad moves are just bad moves, and defensive twisting of the stance ski happens. Either parallel or wedged.

Pretty similar result.

But if we're talking about the ones that "I don't see", do you see them? Have you evaluated this in some sort of objective way? Or is it how it "seems to be" based upon some other premise?

I dunno, I still don't agree, but I guess that's why it's a forum.

[ July 27, 2002, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: SnoKarver ]
post #24 of 32
Pierre eh, the Intermediate Hunter, puts tracking tags on unwitting skiers at his little hill.

"Blimey! There's a real beaut! Hold still, mate, not going to hurt you. Not going to hurt you. Ah, there you go, mate. On your way now..."
http://www.crocodilehunter.com/croco...oc_hunt_01.jpg

[ August 14, 2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: milesb ]
post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by SnoKarver:
...PhysicsMan, I like your comment about speed at the entry of the new turn, and the SWOOP. ... Release those sticky skis! Then SWOOP into the new turn... I am just DROOOLING to make turns again!
I can't take credit. My neighbor's kid came up with this great term, “swoop”, not me! However, since then, I’ve started using the word myself.

The image it conjures up seems to really resonate with a lot of people. It’s a bit more colorful than telling people to “convert as much as possible of your velocity in the fall line into transverse velocity”.

Tom / PM
post #26 of 32
Thread Starter 
Physics Man, a great intructor is nothing more than a boat load of plagerized sayings. Very few instructors come up with truely new ideas and that is when the sport inches forwards. Money is made on proven formula not on cutting edge research.

Unless you're neighbor kid is on this forum, take credit. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #27 of 32
How could you believe anyone, who's not qualified to comment on what they're commenting about?

I can sit here all damn day and complain about Java. But guess what? Unless I'm someone who's wrote thousands of lines of Java code, then I really have no idea about it.

I can read about Java in books and magazines. I can talk to others about it. I can even make a little program in it.

But am I really qualified to talk about Java? No.

These people who think they know a teaching system that they're not certified in, they don't.

No different than me, opening a Java book, turning to page 15 and copying the "Hello World" program, then thinking I know all there is to know about Java.

Nutzo.
______________________

On an unrelated issue, I had lunch with a long time Worldcom executive the other day. Not your usual, run of the mill executive. An executive who really cared about WC and its customers.

She's got kids to take care of and was planning on cashing out her WC stock, that she acquired over 11 years.

Her stock is worthless.

There's thousands (millions?) of others like her. People who worked hard and did their jobs. They believed and had dreams.

I feel bad for them, not some poor bastard who can't figure out how to make a decent turn.

____________________________

Back to the topic, "PMTS vs. the WEDGE, why we care".

I don't.

And right now, I'm wondering why the hell anyone else does, either.
:

[ July 27, 2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: SCSA ]
post #28 of 32
Thread Starter 
I can simplify that. Why would a guy listen to anyone who cannot ski what he preaches? [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
Pierre eh, the Intermediate Hunter, puts tracking tags on unwitting skiers at his little hill.

"Blimey! There's a real beaut! Hold still, mate, not going to hurt you. Not going to hurt you. Ah, there you go, mate. On your way now..."
That's already the subject of an excellent skit by Pierre Ringuette for Whistler SS Video Competition.

BTW he looks like him too! (see www.demspseytours.com) How's anyone fancy skiing in Feb. in shorts through powder?!
post #30 of 32
Nice milesb... :
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