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Bindings - Look PX 12 JIB WIDE vs. Solomon Z10 TI

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 

Advice please. I'm buying some 2009 Gotamas and am looking for the right binding. I'm fairly aggressive although don't ski switch or do any crazy jumps. 6'1" range between 195 and 215. DIN usually around 8 or 9. What can you tell me about either of these two bindings, which were recommended by the shop where I'm going to buy the skis. Thanks in advance.

post #2 of 24

Even though the Z10s will be very light, I think you're definitely going to want a more burly binding for your size.  The PX 12 should work, though you may want to look into PX 14s as well.  If you're still interested in Sollys, the STH 12 or 14 should be better suited for both your size and that ski.  You may want to take a look at Marker Jesters as well.

 

For a simple answer just considering the two bindings you mentioned - go with the Looks

post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Mordy, Thanks for the advice. One more Q: they also have the px ti. Would that be burlier? I'll see if they have the Sollys. Thanks.
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
They don't have sth but do have z12 ti.
post #5 of 24

I'm using the PX12 Jibs with my High Society FRs.  They sit a little lower than the Lifter series, so you don't have as much leverage to get them on edge, but that didn't seem to be a problem.  (I'm 6'0'', 180#)  I haven't tried them in deep powder, but I think they'd handle very well.  I've seen them on a few sites for $100-150, which is a pretty good deal, in my opinion. 

post #6 of 24

My previous powder boards had Salomon 912 bindings (the precursors to the Z12's I guess) and would pre-release in all sorts of difficult snow situations.  I put PX12's on my Gotama's (the "elastic travel" technology seemed to make sense as a possible cure for my pre-release problems) and I haven't released once this year even skiing nearly 8 days in some very heavy and variable conditions.  Problem fixed - get the Looks!

 

post #7 of 24

There shouldn't be too much difference between the PX12 and PX12ti as far as durability.  There may be about a 100g difference between pairs (ti lighter) but that's about it.  There are other differences in PX12 line that you could consider (jib = 3mm shock absorbers, lifters = 6.5mm lift), but I imagine they all ski very similar.  Also make sure you get wide enough brakes for the Goats

 

post #8 of 24

I also use the PX12 Jib on my High Society skis.  I'm 6'0" 240# in ski clothes, and the bindings handle me just fine.  Had them up at Jay last week in knee deep powder with no issues at all.   My skis are 104 width and the brakes are 100, and they just have enough clearance without bending, so they should fit your Goats fine.

post #9 of 24

If you're planning on skiing these in deep conditions (possibly "bottomless") then you might consider that the Looks are much easier to put back on when there's no "platform" to put your ski on and stamp your boot into.  You can put your skis back on while sitting down with Looks - just pull up on the heel cock (Tyrolias can do the same thing, Marker can't, not really sure about Salomon).

post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post

 

My previous powder boards had Salomon 912 bindings (the precursors to the Z12's I guess) and would pre-release in all sorts of difficult snow situations. 


 

I've only demoed the Z12 and had problems with the toe pre-releasing, something I rarely experienced with the 912.  Since they have the same heel as the 912 my guess is the Z12 will be even more prone to pre-release.

 

Go with the Look PX12 Jibs.  I have a couple pair of them on fatter skis and love them.  They don't have as much lift as the Lifter version but they have more than enough for your powder skis.

post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all of the replies. I have two more ignorant questions as a newbie to fat skis technology:

 

1.  What does lift achieve and how important is it?

2.  How important is elastic travel, and does that prevent the binding from releasing when it's truly needed?

 

Thanks in advance. 

post #12 of 24

Lift makes it easier to roll your skis over on their edges.  This is a big plus on groomers.  The disadvantage to lift is it creates a stilt effect making the ski seem less stable especially in powder and landing jumps.  Many purist prefer as little lift as possible for their powder skis.  Personally, I like a little lift on my powder skis to help on the groomers but not too much.

 

Elasticity is achieved two ways.  One is by the binding being able to travel on its mount.  Both the Z12 and PX12s have some of this type of elasticity in the heel.  This helps when the ski is flexed under the foot.  The other type of elasticity is how much the binding connection to the boot can travel before you are released.  This is where the Look heel really shines as it seems able to to travel a lot and still keep your boot in.

post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 

I ended up getting the Look PX 12 Ti JIB Wide bindings. Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies and advice. 

post #14 of 24

Good choice .

post #15 of 24

Good choice- Look bindings is probably the most consistently highly rated bindings in the forum and for a good reason.

 

post #16 of 24

Several of us have the Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings and do not like the large delta angle built into the bindings.  The boot contact point on the heel piece is several millimeters higher than the boot contact point on the toe piece.  The result is that the lower leg is tipped forward, the skier has to bend their knees more than usual, the butt is back for balance, and it is not an effective stance.

 

The solution is to either remove the lifter piece under the heel and shorten the binding mounting screws, or to put more lift under the toe and use longer screws...but longer screws are hard to find.

 

I like my PX bindings a lot for all the reasons listed above, and like the stance with the toe and heel leveled out.

post #17 of 24

I've posted this before, but I guess it should be here again due to the last post.

 

The binding delta for the Look P12 or PX12 is 6mm.  In the grand scheme of things when looking at all manufacturers this is not high.  A Tyrolia on a freeflex power select plate is 7.5mm, a Tyrolia Peak 12 is 9.0mm, and Tyrolia Peak 18 is 5.0mm, a Marker comp piston is 5.0mm, most of the integrated systems are also in this range (5-9mm).  Look isn't really any higher than anyone else - so please stop perpetrating Look as having a high delta and insinuating that no one else does.  It's actually much rarer to find bindings with deltas lower than 5.0mm (the Marker Duke & Baron at 0.0mm, Tyrolia railflex at 3.0mm).

 

At least with Look lifter bindings you have a simple option to reduce the delta if necessary (by removing the heel lifter) most bindings don't provide any easy options.  Also note that reducing binding delta isn't a goal for everyone.  Finding the right binding delta is the goal and that completely depends on your body build and your boots.  We need to stop the idea that low binding delta is good and high is bad because that's just not the way it works.

post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice. I didn't mean to start a debate, but both of the prior two posts raised an issue I wasn't aware of. I'll discuss it with the shop when I have the bindings mounted. In the meantime, I'd appreciate being pointed to any prior discussions of this issue so that I understand it better. Thanks.
post #19 of 24

 Not to hijack but ive been looking at the PX 12 for a pair of liberty hazmats which are 94mm underfoot. Reading over some of the forums ive seen raves and disdain.  Can anyone comment further on difficulty getting the look on or off.  Im sure im not the only one but i cant stand difficulty getting into my bindings in soft snow on anything with any angle. 

 

Im 6 foot 175lb, din is usually 9-10. Ski fast, sometimes too fast, but no hucking and no pipes. Any further advice on the looks or other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Thanks again....really enjoying this forum since i found it recently

post #20 of 24

Looks is probably the easiest to put on in powder, as you can just lift the heelpiece with your hand instead of stepping in.  Only Jesters offer a similar feature, all other bindings you need to step in.   I am biased as all my skis are mounted with Looks. 

post #21 of 24

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

Only Jesters offer a similar feature, all other bindings you need to step in.


And Tyrolias provide heel lever pull on too.

post #22 of 24

If I had a Look binding jig, I'd be on Look's all the time.  Not crazy about the forward pressure on them, but pretty good otherwise.  They do chew up the heels of my boots a tad faster though.

post #23 of 24

I'll beg to differ on the details.

 

Look PX12 (from a few years back): ~6mm.  I once shimmed the toes of one set with 4mm Lexan plates to give a more "normal" delta of 2mm.

 

Marker Motion LT12, integrated: ~5mm

 

Salomon S912ti Pilot, integrated:  2mm

 

Atomic Neox 4.12, integrated:  2mm

 

Dynastar/Look PX12 Fluid, integrated: 2mm

 

Marker Duke/Baron: AFD adjustment means that this is variable depending on boot sole.  The delta with a new Atomic RT CS sole is 2mm.  I imagine this will hold for all DIN-compliant alpine boot soles.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodler View Post

I've posted this before, but I guess it should be here again due to the last post.

 

The binding delta for the Look P12 or PX12 is 6mm.  In the grand scheme of things when looking at all manufacturers this is not high.  A Tyrolia on a freeflex power select plate is 7.5mm, a Tyrolia Peak 12 is 9.0mm, and Tyrolia Peak 18 is 5.0mm, a Marker comp piston is 5.0mm, most of the integrated systems are also in this range (5-9mm).  Look isn't really any higher than anyone else - so please stop perpetrating Look as having a high delta and insinuating that no one else does.  It's actually much rarer to find bindings with deltas lower than 5.0mm (the Marker Duke & Baron at 0.0mm, Tyrolia railflex at 3.0mm).

 

At least with Look lifter bindings you have a simple option to reduce the delta if necessary (by removing the heel lifter) most bindings don't provide any easy options.  Also note that reducing binding delta isn't a goal for everyone.  Finding the right binding delta is the goal and that completely depends on your body build and your boots.  We need to stop the idea that low binding delta is good and high is bad because that's just not the way it works.

 

 

post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by DtEW View Post

I'll beg to differ on the details.

 

Look PX12 (from a few years back): ~6mm.  I once shimmed the toes of one set with 4mm Lexan plates to give a more "normal" delta of 2mm.

 

Marker Motion LT12, integrated: ~5mm

 

Salomon S912ti Pilot, integrated:  2mm

 

Atomic Neox 4.12, integrated:  2mm

 

Dynastar/Look PX12 Fluid, integrated: 2mm

 

Marker Duke/Baron: AFD adjustment means that this is variable depending on boot sole.  The delta with a new Atomic RT CS sole is 2mm.  I imagine this will hold for all DIN-compliant alpine boot soles.

 

 

 

Do others agree with DtEWs numbers?  I just messured my PX12s integrated on '09 Contact 10s and thought it was 2-3 mm.  My flat mounted X14s on Misfits were also about 2 mm while P14s on a plate integrated on Dynastar 66 GS skis from a handful of years ago were 7 mm (or a bit more). 

I like the PX12s on the C-10 and would like to get something with a similar ramp to flat mount on some wider skis.  Would like to go as light as possible.  What is the delta on Look PX 12 Ti JIB Wide bindings?  What about the PX 14 race xxl (which I was too slow checking out at tramdock)?  The wides say 100 mm brake and the xxl 115 or 120 mm?  Too much bending to put the wides on 108 mm P4s?  What about the regular brakes on Watea 84s?
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