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Best way to plug holes on skis

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 

I have to move my bindings. I want to plug the holes properly, what is the best way to do this?
I read a thread on here that said their local ski shop uses some rubber or plastic plugs. I'm not quite sure where I would get those...

 

Ideas? Suggestions?

post #2 of 44

I found this awesome site on the internet that has everything you'll need.

 

Some people prefer hardwood plugs and glue.


Edited by Alpinord - 3/23/13 at 10:15am
post #3 of 44

LOL Al.  I was about to suggest you remembering the "thread" about the screws (pun intended).

 

Talyn;

 

If you opt for wood plugs and glue be sure to top it off with something water resistant like  dab of silicone calk or plastic glue so moisture doesn't get in.

post #4 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

  

Talyn;

 

If you opt for wood plugs and glue be sure to top it off with something water resistant like  dab of silicone calk or plastic glue so moisture doesn't get in.

 

You haven't watched Home Improvement enough.

 

post #5 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

 

You haven't watched Home Improvement enough.

 

 

I actually used this to plug my last re-mount. Pricey, but i had a tube kicking around and it works.

post #6 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

 

You haven't watched Home Improvement enough.

 

 

Sorry, I've been too busy skiing to watch Home Improvement. FWIW I used nothing but silicone last time I plugged holes.  It worked out well because I sent the skis and bindings to another Bear whose BSL fit the original holes so he just put them back in right thru the silicone.

post #7 of 44

cr, I wish I had been so busy skiing since 1991 to have missed Tim the Tool Man.   Lucky you are.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by krp8128 View Post

 

 

I actually used this to plug my last re-mount. Pricey, but i had a tube kicking around and it works.

 

Sweet.   Have you been able to get a good bond to HDPE?

post #8 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

 

Sweet.   Have you been able to get a good bond to HDPE?

 

I haven't tried that specifically, but I haven't found a material yet that 5200 WONT stick to. I'm pretty sure i have seen it used on King Starboard, which i am 99% sure is an HDPE material.

 

What is your intended application?

post #9 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by krp8128 View Post

 

What is your intended application?

 

Regluing peeled XC ski bases.

post #10 of 44

Easy

 

step 1: goto this website: http://tognar.com/binding_tools_boot_canting_glue_ski_snowboard.html

 

step 2: buy "white plastic plugs"

 

step 3: fill holes with glue

 

step 4: hammer white plastic plugs into hole

 

step 5: use boxcutter to trim down the plastic plugs

 

step 6: rejoice!

 

post #11 of 44
Thread Starter 

Thank for the great responces guys!!!


I wanted to tell you guys this, because most people do not know, but silicone attracts water.
Well don't think of it like a paper towel though. But water will stick to it sorta deal.
Urethane is the best to use in area's with water. Something I learned from my aunt when she worked in the water room at saturn, where they dump like... 10k gallons of water on the cars in x seconds, or whatever. She said to make sure you use urethane because it doesn't attract water.
Not saying silicone is bad choice, and I'm sure no problems, but thought I would share this info.
Yes. Silicone is water resistant, that is true. So I'm not saying that. Just saying that water sticks to it, which in cases of things like vehicles, that can cause rust. =)
So if it makes it past the silicone, and down to the wood, then swellage!

Checking out the 2 sights ASAP!! I want to get these fixed before we run out of snow!!!

post #12 of 44
Thread Starter 

While I'm on it.
Does anyone know of a chart for drill size to screw size?

post #13 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn View Post

 

While I'm on it.
Does anyone know of a chart for drill size to screw size?

 

For bindings? All binding screws are 12AB thread. You want 4.1mm and a 12AB tap if there's metal in the ski, or 3.6mm and no tap if no metal. Actually, its a good idea to tap the holes anyway, but you only strictly NEED it if there's metal. Most skis have the screw dimension (and hole depth) printed on the topsheet somewhere.

 

Order what you need from Terry (Alpinord).

post #14 of 44
Thread Starter 

Yea. I would think to tap metal.

 

You mean that the screw size is printed on the binding, not the top sheet of the ski right?

I really hope you dont mean the other way around, unless you just mean depth. =)
Tapping wood is not necessary if you drill a pilot hole the correct size. Your just asking for trouble tapping wood with a tap, IMO. Nothing says the threads have to follow the tap path you made, so you just took out wood that holds the screw in. =)

Plugs and epoxy are what I have on my list at the moment.
Still havn't decided if i want to buy a ski specific drill bit yet. I have plenty at the workshop.
 

post #15 of 44

Thanks Squacker.

 

Here's our basic drill bit recommendations:

Quote:

 

    *  The general rule on drill bit sizes is 3.5mm for non-metal skis and 4.1 for metal. There are exceptions, such as a metal binding plate in a non-metal ski, carbon fiber top sheets, etc
    * By CE regulation, all current skis have the recommended drill size printed on the ski, either in the mounting area, on the adjacent sidewall or on the tail with the ski dimensions.
    * The minimum depth for a screw for a binding mount is 6mm/1/4". Measure the screw less the binding thickness will provide you minimum drill tip length.
    * Make sure this will not exceed the thickness of the ski or snow board.
    * The excess depth of a hole deeper than the length of screw will be filled with the glue.

 

And here's our basic screw recommendations:

Quote:

    *  Older skis probably used longer screws as the skis were thicker and newer skis typically require shorter screws.
    * The thread pitch is unique to binding screws and optimized for skis and snowboards. A typical hardware store machine screw is NOT a recommended alternative.
    * Tapping metal topsheets or mounting plates is highly recommended.
    * Glue can fill in a deeper hole than screw length.

Alternatives & procedures for measuring (calipers are best):

    * Measure existing screw if available
    * Measure existing hole diameters
    * Measure hole depths (calipers have depth gauges)
    * Is the screw a flathead , tapered or have a shoulder (panhead)?
    * Take picture of existing screw and send it with dimensions

    * If in doubt send us one and we'll try to match.

 

Some people use a drill with a stop on the bit or a drill press with one. The drill press stop may not account for a varying thickness in a ski or snowboard. Removing the slight 'volcano' affect at the top of the hole can be removed with a counter sink or larger bit.

 

HTH

 

Terry

post #16 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn View Post

 

Yea. I would think to tap metal.

 

You mean that the screw size is printed on the binding, not the top sheet of the ski right?

I really hope you dont mean the other way around, unless you just mean depth. =)
Tapping wood is not necessary if you drill a pilot hole the correct size. Your just asking for trouble tapping wood with a tap, IMO. Nothing says the threads have to follow the tap path you made, so you just took out wood that holds the screw in. =)

Plugs and epoxy are what I have on my list at the moment.
Still havn't decided if i want to buy a ski specific drill bit yet. I have plenty at the workshop.
 

 

The appropriate hole diameter is printed on the ski topsheet, and often the hole depth. Since all alpine bindings use 12AB screws, and the bindings know nothing about the ski they are to be mounted on it would make no sense whatsoever to print hole diameters on the bindings.

 

As stated, for adult skis: if metal then 4.1mm +12AB tap, else 3.5mm (sorry for writing 3.6 up there) and no tap. 12AB threads are basically self-tapping but need a little help passing through metal layers.

 

From Terry's site: http://www.slidewright.com/proddetail.php?prod=SV-SD

 

.... he beat me to it ... :)

9.5mm for adult sk

post #17 of 44
Thread Starter 

Are you guys trying to say I shoudln't use the screws provided with my bindings?

 

When drilling a certian depth. I always tape my bit and set the depth on the press.
It's a way to double check whats going on.
Some people say the tape will move.

I'll just tell them, clean the bit before you put the tape on. Tape is not going to stick to oil. DUH!

I don't recall seeing any measurements like that on my ski's. I'll check when I get home.

 

9.5mm? Screw lenght?

post #18 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn View Post

 

Are you guys trying to say I shoudln't use the screws provided with my bindings?

 

No (as long as they meet general recommendations). I was responding to your question with general information about using your shop bits and tools.

 

Measure twice or thrice, drill once....

post #19 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

 

 

No (as long as they meet general recommendations). I was responding to your question with general information about using your shop bits and tools.

 

Measure twice or thrice, drill once....

 

The thought i'd use machine screws. :P
Still funny though.

How long is the shank on the mounting bits you guys have? Generally 1/4 inch?
If they meet the generalism for depth of most alpine ski's, they would be usefull, because they clean up the top sheet when you drill down.

 

As for measuring 2 times or 3 times.
Let me put it to you this way. I spent 2 hours making a template for my bindings.
I am nit picky when it comes to stuff like this.

 

(I edited my post above yours btw)

post #20 of 44

Typical mounting drill bit sizes:

 

  • 3.5mm x 7.5mm
  • 3.5mm x 9.5mm
  • 3.5mm x 14mm Nordic
  • 4.1mm x 7.5mm
  • 4.1mm x 9.5mm

 

The first number is the bit diameter (3.5mm or 4.1mm) x the length of the tip (7.5mm or 9.5mm).

post #21 of 44
Thread Starter 

Oh, I was thinking the second size listed was the wider shank size of the bit.
You guys were saying its a stepping bit, so that's how I read it.

Looks like i'ma have to do some measuring when I get home then.T
hanks alpinord.

post #22 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn View Post

 

Yea. I would think to tap metal.

 

You mean that the screw size is printed on the binding, not the top sheet of the ski right?

I really hope you dont mean the other way around, unless you just mean depth. =)
Tapping wood is not necessary if you drill a pilot hole the correct size. Your just asking for trouble tapping wood with a tap, IMO. Nothing says the threads have to follow the tap path you made, so you just took out wood that holds the screw in. =)

Plugs and epoxy are what I have on my list at the moment.
Still havn't decided if i want to buy a ski specific drill bit yet. I have plenty at the workshop.
 

 

Forget about the wood core, it does not hold the screws.  The topsheet does, and that's what benefits from tapping whether or not there is a metal layer.  It is *required* for a metal layer to prevent the screw from blistering/puckering the metal layer if you were to just drive it in.  But in general, tapping the topsheet improves the mount on any ski because it gives you a lot more control when driving the screw in.  Screws crank into a tapped topsheet smoothly, and you can easily tell when you come up to the whoa point (at which point, just give 1/16 to 1/8 of a twist to snug and stop).

 

It sounds like you haven't mounted before, so here are a couple things to watch out for.

 

1) if you haven't tapped the topsheet, the topsheet will probably funnel up around the screw, and this can create a blister that keeps the binding from sitting flat on the ski.  Rather than cranking the screw down and risking strip-out, use a chisel or countersink to remove the blister.  You can pre-empt this problem by countersinking the topsheet a little (some of the stepped bits do this) but be very careful to not remove a lot of material.  The topsheet is holding the screws in!

 

2) Get a true pozi #3 screwdriver to avoid stripping the screw head.  Phillips will slip, especially if the hole isn't tapped and you are applying a lot of grunt to the screws.

 

3) regarding the grunt, make sure the screws are going in absolutely straight.  If they are crooked and you try to boss them around, the holes will enlarge and risk strip-out.

 

4) Don't over tighten.  Can't stress this enough.  You want the screws snugged down tight with the bindings flat to the ski, but you can strip out a hole all too easy.

 

5) be sure to use glue in the holes to lube the screws and seal the hole.

 

BTW, many of these issues are moot if the topsheet has been tapped, so suggestion zero would be to tap the topsheet if you can!  #12AB taps are cheap and readily available online.

 

Good luck!

 

P.S. If you have a good scanner and a computer that can scale input/output graphics correctly, an easy way to make a template is to scan the bottom of your bindings.  Use the boot for rough spacing, remembering to subtract 3-5mm to account for forward pressure (real number depends on the binding model).

 

post #23 of 44
Thread Starter 

i did a lot of math and measuring and traced it all onto a patern i made off the topsheet of the ski.
Then I checked over my measurments on the template, and yada yada.
Then double checked some more.
I'll probably check it again. haha.

I guess I dont see the purpose in tapping a top sheet that isn't much thicker then 1 to 1.5 mm.
Your just creating a small thread path.
The reason's some things are done will elude a lot of us.

I didn't much see the wood holding the screw. It is some, but the majority of it looks like the top sheet, like you said. The wood does hold a percentage of the screw, but its just so soft it's not doing to much work. Tapping the wood out too far would just make it useless, It's a good spot for the glue to bond to the screw as well to keep it in.
 

My bindings ended up mounting flat, they puckered when i pulled them off, but the rail sat flat on the ski.

I will think about the Tap. I am not against it though.


Thanks for the great tips man!

You guys are being great on this thread. I appreciate it a lot.

post #24 of 44

Personally, I would recommending tapping all skis.  I find that without a tap, the screw is very difficult to screw in.  Since it is very difficult, you may not get the screw in all the way, or you may get it in and not have a good feel for how snug it is--so you may overtighten.  This can lead to pull-out.

 

Far better to use a tap.  Then the screw goes in easily, especially since it is lubricated by the glue.  You get a good feel for when the screw is snug, and you get a good feel for how tight the screw needs to be.  All my mounts, including with wood core skis, have been flawless, so far (after 5 mounts). 

 

So tapping is def. a good idea, in my book.

 

BTW, the hardest part of mounting is drilling the holes and making sure the bit doesn't wander.  What I do is I use a punch to punch holes in the top sheet.  Then I center the drill and drill very slowly at first to enlarge the punch hole.  Then I position the template to double check.  Once I am 100% sure the punch hole is right, then I will take the drill, and go at it full speed.  

 

Even with this, sometimes, the holes will be off.  The key then, is to figure out which holes are right, and to screw those holes in first.  That way, the binding position will be as close to optimal as possible.After drilling, I take a box-cutter and trim down the excess topsheet that has puckered up around the hole.  Then I tap, making sure that the tap is vertical (not angled), and that I stop screwing the tap once I meet significant resistance.  I then trim the topsheet again with my blade.  Then add glue, then screw in.


Edited by mrzinwin - 2/27/2009 at 09:12 am
post #25 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn View Post

 
I guess I dont see the purpose in tapping a top sheet that isn't much thicker then 1 to 1.5 mm.
Your just creating a small thread path.

 

The main reason is to allow the screws to thread through/past the topsheet without pulling it away from the other layers in the ski.  There will always be a little mangling right where the screw goes in, but if you can minimize disturbing the laminated layers, all the better.  Tapping the topsheet lets the screws gracefully pass through the topsheet.

post #26 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrzinwin View Post

 

Personally, I would recommending tapping all skis.  I find that without a tap, the screw is very difficult to screw in.  Since it is very difficult, you may not get the screw in all the way, or you may get it in and not have a good feel for how snug it is--so you may overtighten.  This can lead to pull-out.

 

Far better to use a tap.  Then the screw goes in easily, especially since it is lubricated by the glue.  You get a good feel for when the screw is snug, and you get a good feel for how tight the screw needs to be.  All my mounts, including with wood core skis, have been flawless, so far (after 5 mounts). 

 

So tapping is def. a good idea, in my book.

 

BTW, the hardest part of mounting is drilling the holes and making sure the bit doesn't wander.  What I do is I use a punch to punch holes in the top sheet.  Then I center the drill and drill very slowly at first to enlarge the punch hole.  Then I position the template to double check.  Once I am 100% sure the punch hole is right, then I will take the drill, and go at it full speed.  

 

Even with this, sometimes, the holes will be off.  The key then, is to figure out which holes are right, and to screw those holes in first.  That way, the binding position will be as close to optimal as possible.After drilling, I take a box-cutter and trim down the excess topsheet that has puckered up around the hole.  Then I tap, making sure that the tap is vertical (not angled), and that I stop screwing the tap once I meet significant resistance.  I then trim the topsheet again with my blade.  Then add glue, then screw in.


Edited by mrzinwin - 2/27/2009 at 09:12 am

 

All excellent advice.  

 

So what's your comfort level for snugging the screws?  I usually drive them in gently until they stop, check to make sure the binding is perfectly flat to the ski by holding the ski up to a light, then turn any of the screws more as needed to pull the binding flat (toe pieces are cake, but there always seems to be 1 stubborn screw on heel pieces for whatever reason).  At that point, I alternate over the screws in a star pattern and try to give them a teeny bit of extra oomph to snug down (generally about 1/16 of a turn or less).

 

post #27 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post

 

 

The main reason is to allow the screws to thread through/past the topsheet without pulling it away from the other layers in the ski.  There will always be a little mangling right where the screw goes in, but if you can minimize disturbing the laminated layers, all the better.  Tapping the topsheet lets the screws gracefully pass through the topsheet.

Now that makes sense to tap!!
I think you convinced me to buy a tap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post

 

 

All excellent advice.  

 

So what's your comfort level for snugging the screws?  I usually drive them in gently until they stop, check to make sure the binding is perfectly flat to the ski by holding the ski up to a light, then turn any of the screws more as needed to pull the binding flat (toe pieces are cake, but there always seems to be 1 stubborn screw on heel pieces for whatever reason).  At that point, I alternate over the screws in a star pattern and try to give them a teeny bit of extra oomph to snug down (generally about 1/16 of a turn or less).

 

After doing wood working for a long time. Hand tightening screws gets to be natural. =)


Uhh, what was it I was going to say now. The BB messed up, and i went away for a minute...

Oh, I was going to talk about using a center punch.

 

The type of center punch you use will make a big differece to bit wandering and such.

If you want to be really anal about you holes though, you should drill a pilot hole first after punching.
Just because you dented the top sheet does not mean that bit cannot wander, even if it is in a drill press.

So if you predrilled with a 2mm bit though the top sheet and it was on center. that 3.5 will be perfect.
I use a self centering punch most of the time, but If you want to avoid bit wobble, then using a wider punch that has been put to a point will work better, You will create a slight resess for the drill bit to slide into easier. Just make sure you are centered when pulling the bit down from the press, cause if you create an indent that will center the bit like that, it can pull it to the side and screw up your hole if your not center.


I luckily have a precision vise on the drill press down state. I can drill all the holes in a line easily. =)

post #28 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn View Post

 

I luckily have a precision vise on the drill press down state. I can drill all the holes in a line easily. =)

 

Reminds me of the first skis I mounted in college in the late 80s.  We had just gotten a programmable CNC kit for one of the Bridgeport machines, and I clamped the skis down to the table and programmed the whole thing in x,y,z coordinates.  Talk about overkill, but I was young and idealistic.

 

post #29 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post

 

Reminds me of the first skis I mounted in college in the late 80s.  We had just gotten a programmable CNC kit for one of the Bridgeport machines, and I clamped the skis down to the table and programmed the whole thing in x,y,z coordinates.  Talk about overkill, but I was young and idealistic.

 

 

Hmmmmm........a portable CNC binding drill and edge tuner............talk about idealistic.

 

In your opinion, if you tap wood skis or others without metal topsheets, do you use a 4.1 or the typical 3.5 bit?

post #30 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post

 

 

Hmmmmm........a portable CNC binding drill and edge tuner............talk about idealistic.

 

In your opinion, if you tap wood skis or others without metal topsheets, do you use a 4.1 or the typical 3.5 bit?

 

Depends on the size of the screw.
With metal, you would not want to tap a 3.5 hole when a 4.1 is required.

So with a plastic topsheet, a 3.5 hole can be taped, cause the tap can easily cut the plastic.
Plus, the shank of the screw is 3.5, you don't want to drill wood out wider then that. You want the threads to go into the wood. yes, I know everyone uses epoxy, or glue, but glue is to help. The screw in the wood  is doing more then what is really being said here. It is keeping the screw from moving around, from backing out, and probably 1 or 2 other things.
So by drilling the wood out bigger then the screw, your just hurting yourself.


I love the idea of programing bindings into a CNC machine, that is just mint man.
The best part about that is, you could program in multipul bindings, and just line them up according to how they want the center line, set the depth, and hit start and walk away. it would drill 2 pairs of skis.

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