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# How upside down can you get?

These stick figures are a very simplified view from behind. My question is, how far do I want to tip down the hill (A, B, or C) to make my new turn as sharp as the turn that I'm finishing in the first image. I think the answer is C but I want to make sure it's even possible :-) If I go from the first image to C, will I plunge down the mountain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw3425

These stick figures are a very simplified view from behind. My question is, how far do I want to tip down the hill (A, B, or C) to make my new turn as sharp as the turn that I'm finishing in the first image. I think the answer is C but I want to make sure it's even possible :-) If I go from the first image to C, will I plunge down the mountain?

first this is a side view.

second, its really doesnt matter what stick figure is right because it wont help anywhen to know that your legs should be leaned over to 7678939 x pi degrees. You can only go as far as your dynamic balance will take you.

also the on the uphill edges about to tip into a new turn figure. if thats how much you were still on your uphill edges as you transtions you will never be able to achieve B let alone C. Idealy in transtion your legs will be at a 90 degree angle to the slope(kinda of like A) if your finishing on that high of an edge angle it means you COM is way late.

Ideally we have build to maxuim edging and pressure when our skis are pointed directly down the hill. This requires a constant and strong COM movement in relation to our skis, and total commitment to the fallline.

what I am talking about is extremely hard to learn over the internet. Where are you I can point with someone who can help you.

Interesting approach. First of all your pich is very very steep. Second, yes its simplified, too simplified. You need to split the graphics up in upper and lower body and consider speed and lots of other things. My answere would however be B. You need higher edge angles after apex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw3425

These stick figures are a very simplified view from behind. My question is, how far do I want to tip down the hill (A, B, or C) to make my new turn as sharp as the turn that I'm finishing in the first image. I think the answer is C but I want to make sure it's even possible :-) If I go from the first image to C, will I plunge down the mountain?

Interesting question.  Bushwack, I believe these stick figures are meant to be as if you are skiing behind the skier and the skier is at transition, skiing across the slope.

I vote for something between A and B.  The new edges need to be engaged.  Just how upside down you get depends entirely on the speed, how aggresively you are bending the skis into a short radius turn, etc.  That slope is also VERY steep you have drawn.  (A) does not provide a change of edges and B/C will probably have you plunging down the mountain.

Also the edge angle you see in (C) is what you might expect to see at the apex of the turn, not when you initiate it.  When you initiate it you would be somewhere between A and B, past neutral/flat.  As the turn develops you may tip more.

Thanks for the replies...

Here's my second take on it:

Basically, my question is: Is this transition possible? Can I get this upside down before the fall line?

not likely on that slope

Putting aside the fact that the hill you're skiing is almost too steep to hold snow, and answering the last question first: If you go to C, you will plunge down the mountain. Actually, I think C is a representation of someone who is already in the process of plunging down the mountain. You might possibly go as far as A, but even that's pretty far.

Interpretative Note:

I'm understanding your first diagram as a view from behind. You're moving away from me, and I'm looking at a section of the mountain (everything under the black line is snow, dirt and rock). In A/B/C, you are still facing away from me, but just initiating your turn.

I have no understanding of your second diagram whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw3425

Thanks for the replies...

Here's my second take on it:

Basically, my question is: Is this transition possible? Can I get this upside down before the fall line?

Im not sure I know how to read that graph but I have a good imagination and that tells me the following: lets number the graphs 1 to 5 right to left. Starting at the top. Green is your legs and blue your upper body. Since this is a doublefreekinghahnenkamleviblack slope lets just pretend that you are not carving edge locked but rather brushing.

1. you are comming out of your previous turn with high edge angles, your outside leg extended, upper body countered and you show strong angulation... going across the slope that BTW is very very very steep.... you are wound up with some tention between upper and lower body

2. you have just relesed your previous turn and you are starting to flex your outside leg.... you are de-tipping.... your CoM is starting to move down the hill... your skis remain edged and are still running across the hill... you are angulated but your upper body counter has changed to anticipation and there... no unwinding yet because you are still on your old edges

3. you are in the middle of transition and perpendicular at the slope with legs flexed even more than in previous graph.... your legs are starting to unwind since their edges are releced

4. this graph should be offsetted down the slope because your skis have alredy started to point down the hill and this upside/down position is not upside/down but across the slope

5. this is how you end up but its the wrong way arround.... should look like graph 1 except insted of pointing your butt at us you are now facing with a smile on your face... and yes, this graph should be offsetted even more than graph 4

Did this make any sence?

That makes perfect sense. Thanks!

So, can you think of it as moving seamlessly through the range of motion in my second diagram except that, by the time you get to 4 and 5, you've actually moved through the fall line and are almost all the way around your arc?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6

Im not sure I know how to read that graph but I have a good imagination and that tells me the following: lets number the graphs 1 to 5 right to left. Starting at the top. Green is your legs and blue your upper body. Since this is a doublefreekinghahnenkamleviblack slope lets just pretend that you are not carving edge locked but rather brushing.

1. you are comming out of your previous turn with high edge angles, your outside leg extended, upper body countered and you show strong angulation... going across the slope that BTW is very very very steep.... you are wound up with some tention between upper and lower body

2. you have just relesed your previous turn and you are starting to flex your outside leg.... you are de-tipping.... your CoM is starting to move down the hill... your skis remain edged and are still running across the hill... you are angulated but your upper body counter has changed to anticipation and there... no unwinding yet because you are still on your old edges

3. you are in the middle of transition and perpendicular at the slope with legs flexed even more than in previous graph.... your legs are starting to unwind since their edges are releced

4. this graph should be offsetted down the slope because your skis have alredy started to point down the hill and this upside/down position is not upside/down but across the slope

5. this is how you end up but its the wrong way arround.... should look like graph 1 except insted of pointing your butt at us you are now facing with a smile on your face... and yes, this graph should be offsetted even more than graph 4

Did this make any sence?

It depends on how fast you are going and what sidecut radius your skis have (assuming hard conditions - how flexible your skis are in soft snow).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw3425

If I have understood you correctly then yes. Remember that the steeper the slope the more fish hooked turns you will get. The turns will be tighter at the end. This is because gravity is pulling you in opposit direction to centripetal force in upper C. In lower C both forces join in and pull you down and you need a lot more force holding against.

Here bode is upside down:

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/slides/bode-bc-2006-dh.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

It depends on how fast you are going and what sidecut radius your skis have (assuming hard conditions - how flexible your skis are in soft snow).

That's the answer.  You can as a far as the turning forces are large enough to keep you in balance, and that depends on speed, radius, slope pitch and snow conditions.

BK

And your direction.... coming at the turn from below will give you even higher angles.

Is it just me or does this thread (diagrams included), not make any sense at all?  ...and I know how to "get upside down" in a turn...

Quote:

Is it just me or does this thread (diagrams included), not make any sense at all?  ...and I know how to "get upside down" in a turn...

:-)

Sorry...

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I think I understand it now...

Heluva, I think it's just different people having different ways of expressing themselves, or describing the same thing.

Rather than thinknig of the green line as being the edge of the ski, or anything like that, think of it as your leg.

I remember the saying "show the people at the top of the hill the bottoms of your skis". For a turn where you are working the ski hard during the first third of the turn this advice makes sense. If you're working the ski during the middle third of the turn it makes less sense. If you're working the ski in the last third of the turn it makes no sense. Which IMO the last option is what you are doing if your skis are on a high edge angle late in the turn. The idea behind all of this is how much edge and pressure do you choose to use and where in the turn do you want to use it. An expert can do all three and would choose which to use based on the turn they want to produce. They wouldn't paint themselves into a corner by limiting their options to just one.Which may seem like a non-answer but it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the next turn. It also points out a tendency to think of cookie cutter turn production verses making a variety of turns based on the tactical outcome you desire for each turn. Line choice, terrain variations and obstacles being just three reasons to choose different turns.

That being said, I would ask if you could share a little more of the reasons you have for wanting to be so "upside down"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat

Rather than thinknig of the green line as being the edge of the ski, or anything like that, think of it as your leg.

That makes a bit more sense. Thanks.

I'm guessing the OP is looking for a visual like this... slightly post-transition... somewhere I have the previous frame laying around, which is probably better for this conversation, I'll see if I can dig it up later...

Quote:

That being said, I would ask if you could share a little more of the reasons you have for wanting to be so "upside down"?

I'm trying to get a sense of what's possible :-) I'm still getting used to the idea of being upside down, so I want to know how far I can lunge down the mountain and still be skiing (as opposed to falling...) It's kind of a trust thing as far as realizing that my skis will catch up to me...

Quote:

That makes a bit more sense. Thanks.

I'm guessing the OP is looking for a visual like this... slightly post-transition... somewhere I have the previous frame laying around, which is probably better for this conversation, I'll see if I can dig it up later...

That picture is EXACTLY what I was trying to visualize. Thanks!

sw3425

It is entirely possible, and fun, to both show your ski bases and the front of your parka to gapers uphill from you.  It takes a huge amount of angulation & counter to balance over the inside edge of your outside ski in this position.

Here's a drill for you.  Standing still on just-about-flat snow balance on the uphill edge with excess counter & angulation.  Change edges, using your poles for support if needed, so you're on the other edges angulated and countered with your ski bases and parka zipper facing uphill.  Do it again on a bit more slope.  Now do angulation garlands on the bunny hill.  Slightly off the fall line glide on the edges (no skidding) on the uphill edges, then switch to the downhill edges with big angulation & counter facing uphill with your body.  A tip...start the movement to the other edges by moving your upper body first so the slow moving upper body and quick moving feet end up in the new positions at the same time.  Do garlands where you switch edges several times across this easy hill--ride the sidecut; no skidding.  Do garlands the other way across the hill.  Increase the angle across this easy hill and do garlands again.  Start at maybe 15° to the fall line, do the next at about 30°, the next at about 45°, all depending on the slope (easy slope!), and end up at 90° across the fall line when you're on the uphill edges.  This drill will really get your angulation and balance working to get upside down on real hills.

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